Ash’s Snorlax or Ash’s Krookodile; Who’s Stronger?

[345ash-greninja]

Buizel is debatable though it could probably take Staraptor. Swellow even when trying it’s hardest is going to at least have mid difficulty in taking down Mamoswine; at the very least there’s no way it’s curbstomping (which is what would have happened had Dragonite bothered attacking from the beginning). Sure Swellow would put up a tough fight but I doubt it would be close.

Still debatable even with Staraptor. Staraptor even as a Staravia could beat 2 of Maylene's Pokemon, could defeat Paul's Weavile and tank a SE hit from Paul's Torterra. What has Mamoswine done which is more or even as impressive than this? Sure it inherently seemed to be a strong Pokemon, but it still was never used in a proper battle being pitted against a decently strong Pokemon in DP, so it's a stretch to say that it's can stand a chance of beating Ash's mid level Tier 3 Pokemon in a 1 vs 1, considering even those Pokemon of Ash have some impressive gym wins under their belt.

Swellow could just outmanuveur Mamoswine in speed and agility and just hit it with repeated strikes of Quick Attacks and Aerial Aces and bring Mamoswine down in that process so it's not really impossible for Swellow to beat Mamoswine without much trouble. Swellow did bring down Katie's Venomoth and Scizor without much damage IIRC.

I do think that Swellow would give Dragonite a really close fight with Dragonite winning somewhat barely or so, a.k.a., it could beat Dragonite 4 out of 10 times.

I know we don’t but I presume most are referencing Mr.H’s system when assigning “tiers” (H = Hypocrite ). By our system Krookodile, Bulbasaur, and Heracross would all be “t-1” though to not cause confusion I changed my tierings to letters, so now for me they along with Snorlax would be in the “A” range.

Yeah by our system Bulbasaur, Krookodile and Heracross would be Tier 1's(with Bulbasaur being way in), but I'd say Dragonite is sort of a borderline case being weaker than each of those 3(little weaker than both Krookodile and Heracross; a bit more behind Bulbasaur).

Why is Clair’s newly caught Druddigon not allowed to be that strong? I agree that in isolation it would be a stretch though when considering Dragonite’s prior feats there’s nothing wrong with the conclusion that said Druddigon could just have been that strong based on it beating Dragonite.

It was strong, but still it was a newly captured one which had some issues of its own(shown in its capture episode) so I really won't say that it was well into Tier 1 spectrum. Possibly on the lower end of Tier 1 spectrum with Dragonite being just slightly below it(based on the fact that the fight was really close).

It’s hard to say. I really wish we had a proper rematch between the 2. The most I’d be willing to compromise is that Dragonite is more clearly in A- (with Krookodile being in A regardless) though with that Charizard’s S+ rating comes into question (since Dragonite is the only Pokémon we can scale post BW Zard off of).

I won't really say that it's hard to say because Krookodile won the fight very convincingly. Obviously Dragonite throwing a tantrum/thrashing around/not bttling optimally for a while did help Krookodile's cause quite a bit, but considering in the end Dragonite did make direct attempts to attack Krookodile and still how convincingly Krookodile won, I'd say Krookodile is a bit stronger. In a 100% optimal and serious battle, Dragonite gives Krookodile a very tough fight but Krookodile would win.

 

[Genaller]

Still debatable even with Staraptor. Staraptor even as a Staravia could beat 2 of Maylene's Pokemon, could defeat Paul's Weavile and tank a SE hit from Paul's Torterra. What has Mamoswine done which is more or even as impressive than this? Sure it inherently seemed to be a strong Pokemon, but it still was never used in a proper battle being pitted against a decently strong Pokemon in DP, so it's a stretch to say that it's can stand a chance of beating Ash's mid level Tier 3 Pokemon in a 1 vs 1, considering even those Pokemon of Ash have some impressive gym wins under their belt.

Yeah just gonna say that head to head it made Piplup look like fodder and this was well after Piplup beat Chimchar 1 vs 1 who already has decent feats like against Roark and in the Hearthome tag tournament (even if said Chimchar was at the time nowhere near how strong it became under Ash). Maybe Piplup would’ve done better had he been commanded by Dawn (in particular through the use of combo moves) though Mamoswine probably still wins without much trouble. That feat of Staraptor’s honestly seemed like an outlier. It’s poor performance in the league really doesn’t fit with being able to get a win over Paul after getting an SE hit by his strongest Pokémon (honestly if it weren’t for that feat Staraptor would’ve been in C- for me along with Noivern, Noctowl, and Tauros).

Swellow could just outmanuveur Mamoswine in
speed and agility and just hit it with repeated strikes of Quick Attacks and Aerial Aces and bring Mamoswine down in that process so it's not really impossible for Swellow to beat Mamoswine without much trouble. Swellow did bring down Katie's Venomoth and Scizor without much damage IIRC.

The simple counter here is that Mamoswine can just focus on counter striking rather than evading (so Mamoswine aims to land its attack at the precise moment it gets hit). Swellow wins, but it’s going to have moderate difficulty at least (I’d estimate somewhere around the difficulty Swellow had with Donphan or maybe with slightly less difficulty).

I do think that Swellow would give Dragonite a really close fight with Dragonite winning somewhat barely or so, a.k.a., it could beat Dragonite 4 out of 10 times.

So basically you rate Dragonite and hence Krookodile by extension 1 sub-letter grade below where I do.

Yeah by our system Bulbasaur, Krookodile and Heracross would be Tier 1's(with Bulbasaur being way in), but I'd say Dragonite is sort of a borderline case being weaker than each of those 3(little weaker than both Krookodile and Heracross; a bit more behind Bulbasaur).

Krookodile is at a low ball #7; that’s just unavoidable. The writer acknowledgement in XYZ 40 and 43 makes it clear that they would prioritize Krookodile on Ash’s best team over even Snorlax. With Snorlax there is a writing precedent for it missing out in a hypothetical major battle where Ash were to assemble his “best” team (being in a deep sleep like it during the OI League). With Bulbasaur; however, there’s no equivalent precedent (e.g. they’ve never used say Bulbasaur’s sheriff duties as an excuse for not battling when Ash needs him) meaning in-universe Krookodile would be picked over Bulbasaur because Krookodile is simply the better Pokémon. That at a low ball puts Krookodile at an A and Dragonite then scales accordingly.

It was strong, but still it was a newly captured one which had some issues of its own(shown in its capture episode) so I really won't say that it was well into Tier 1 spectrum. Possibly on the lower end of Tier 1 spectrum with Dragonite being just slightly below it(based on the fact that the fight was really close).

There is an unquantifiable period from when it got caught and when Iris faced it, so Clair could’ve just trained it in the meantime. There’s nothing wrong with Druddigon being a nudge over Dragonite. Also just for the record none of Ash’s TOP 5 would be in “tier-1” by our system.

I won't really say that it's hard to say because Krookodile won the fight very convincingly. Obviously Dragonite throwing a tantrum/thrashing around/not bttling optimally for a while did help Krookodile's cause quite a bit, but considering in the end Dragonite did make direct attempts to attack Krookodile and still how convincingly Krookodile won, I'd say Krookodile is a bit stronger. In a 100% optimal and serious battle, Dragonite gives Krookodile a very tough fight but Krookodile would win.

Agreed. We’re on the same page in terms of Krook’s and Drag’s relative scaling though I just happen to put them 1 sub-letter grade higher than you do.