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Ash, friends, and rivals...by BST

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by Doppelgänger, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Superancient Member

    Disclaimer

    There are many ways to evaluate team strength. This is one such way. Please don't come in here and argue my numbers are wrong because of X irrelevant reason. These numbers are facts and should be used in conjunction with other evidence like feats, perception, and moves to paint a broader picture of strength.

    Introduction

    Ash doesn't evolve all of his Pokemon and is often at a disadvantage in the league by evolution. But just how severe is that disadvantage? Using Bulbapedia, I calculated the BST of all the 6x6 Pokemon battles for relevant rivals and friends of Ash featured in the series.

    Evolution has been shown to play a prominent role in the anime when it comes to depicting strength. BST is correlated with evolution. But some Pokemon, like pseudo legendaries, are consistently portrayed as strong or benchmarks for strength without any special attention drawn to their stats or typing.

    Therefore, this list seeks to meet two criteria:

    -quantify the evolution advantage opponents have over Ash
    -quantify the species advantage opponents have over Ash

    Notes

    1. All Pokemon are considered Mega Evolved/Battle Bonded that are capable of doing so
    2. BST used is during the generation the battle happened
    3. Cameron is listed twice, with 5 Pokemon and his full team
    4. Alola Ash is listed with 5 Pokemon and with a full team including Poipole.
    5. I included Acuity Paul + Electivire since Paul could easily have used the same team in the Sinnoh League
    6. because Drake has a Ditto, his total depends on what Ditto copies. Against Ash, Ditto has a higher BST than Pikachu (48 versus 35 HP), and is so he is listed twice to show the base and actual cases.

    The List

    3400 - Sawyer
    3322 - Alain
    3120 - Paul/Electivire [Acuity]
    3094 - Ash [Kalos]
    3070 - Paul [Acuity]
    3060 - Gary
    3035 - Cameron/Watchog
    3010 - Remo
    3008 - Finalist [Sinnoh]
    3003 - Dino
    2981 - Paul [Sinnoh]
    2969 - Ash [Gary]
    2958 - Ramone
    2950 - Virgil
    2893 - Harrison
    2874 - Tyson
    2820 - Katie
    2801 - Drake [Pikachu]
    2788 - Drake [Base]
    2700 - Morrison
    2674 - Ash [Sinnoh]
    2615 - Cameron
    2535 - Ash [Harrison]
    2530 - Ash [Tobias]
    2491 - Ash [Orange]
    2425 - Ash [Acuity]
    2393 - Ash [Hoenn]
    2267 - Ash/Poipole [Alola]
    2202 - Ash [Unova]
    1847 - Ash [Alola]

    Quarterfinalists:

    2981 - Paul [Sinnoh]
    2958 - Ramone
    2535 - Ash [Harrison]
    2393 - Ash [Hoenn]
    2202 - Ash [Unova]

    Semifinalists:

    3400 - Sawyer
    3035 - Cameron/Watchog
    3010 - Remo
    2530 - Ash [Tobias]

    Finalists:

    3094 - Ash [Kalos]
    3008 - Finalist [Sinnoh]
    3003 - Dino

    Winner:

    3322 - Alain
    2950 - Virgil
    2874 - Tyson

    Interpretation

    By this metric, Kalos Ash is the strongest team Ash has ever fielded, but a comparable disparity in strength compared to his opponents in prior leagues.
    Ash is never at a BST advantage, he is always the underdog in every battle.
    A BST of 3000+ is generally necessary to make it into the semis.
    Tyson sticks out and despite a Sceptile/Metagross, he has a pretty underpowered team.
     
    wolf jani likes this.
  2. JC317

    JC317 Well-Known Member

    This is a very comprehensive list! Just for fun though, can you also include the 6x6 Ash had at the beginning of the third movie?
     
    wolf jani likes this.
  3. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Kanto Ash has 30 Tauros, that's 13,500 BST right there. But seriously, why is any of this remotely relevant? BST doesn't even mean anything for the games, let alone for the anime.

    Also, still going to argue Orange league Ash is off. Should be 2,088 BST. 450 (Tauros) + 250 (Squirtle) + 425 (Charizard) + 450 (Lapras) + 260 (Pikachu) + 253 (Bulbasaur)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  4. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Superancient Member

    You might want to say hello to my first four paragraphs, they might have something to tell you.

    And BST doesn't mean anything to games like Mario or Zelda, but it certainly plays a role in Pokemon.

    None of these numbers are correct, according to Bulbapedia.

    [​IMG]

    However, double checking did reveal the oversight: in Generation I, Special was a single stat and Bulbapedia doesn't depict the unified Gen I Special. I will need to correct Drake/Orange Ash to reflect this slight twist in power.
     
    wolf jani likes this.
  5. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    They don't say anything about what the point is. BST says nothing about battling power. Level, moves, and training matters significantly more than BST ever will, and that's in the games. You have also not even remotely established a connection between game stats and the anime to make any of this relevant for an anime discussion.

    Let's be real here, game stats have next to no influence on the anime at all. Kiawe's Marowak is frequently depicted as nimble and fast, yet it's one of the slowest fully evolved pokémon species in the game. James's Mareanie isn't portrayed defensively at all and likes to just attack with direct damaging moves, and you can go on and on like this. The anime writers don't go looking up species stats in the main games for their battles, they don't care about any of that, it's not plot relevant at all.
     
  6. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Superancient Member

    ...

    Except the Attack, Special Attack stats.

    ...

    ...

    These are the tabulated results of 30 anime teams.

    "Ash" doesn't even exist in the games, how is this not anime related?
     
  7. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    You're missing my point. The point is that BST doesn't quantify anything in the anime and is therefore not anime related. It is simply not relevant for the anime. Games are not the anime. You can list some numbers, but in the context of the anime, those numbers are entirely meaningless.
     
    345ash-greninja and Genaller like this.
  8. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Superancient Member

    Please provide proof of this bold claim.

    When I reffed for PASBL, I looked to the anime and games for guidance on how to manage matches. This is especially relevant in PASBL where, at the time (I think Jeri has changed the rules by now), trainers and refs knew the levels of specific Pokemon, and refs had to take level, evolution, species and move power into account. How do I distinguish a Level 40, 3rd stage Butterfree from a Level 40, 3rd stage Alakazam? BST.

    I can't imagine a writer for a Pokemon anime would ignore BST, but respect other game mechanics like:

    -4 move limit
    -legal moves
    -legal abilities
    -recoil, cooldown
    -status conditions

    You kind of get a sense of this with legends, pseudo legends and starters being a cut above "normal" Pokemon. Hence, this is an effort to quantify such an observation using the same primary sources the screen writers would consult.
     
  9. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Don't flip the burden of proof here. You're the one making the claims that it matters and basing the validity of this thread on it. No idea what PASBL is.

    I never said that there are no differences in pokémon powers in the anime. I said that base stat total as an entity is meaningless for the anime, it's just an unweighted sum of hidden(!) game stats that says nothing. Even for the games its validity is questionable at best. And all those other things you're listed, they're not hidden game stats. They're wide open for players to see. And aside from move legality (somewhat, Moltres in movie 2 could already use Flamethrower for instance), and 4-move limit the anime only applies those other things whenever it wants to for plot convenience. Like Sawyer's Sceptile never had to recharge from Frenzy Plant or lost offensive power due to Leaf Storm. Togedemaru's Lightning Rod also works differently in the anime compared to the games.

    Obviously legendaries are generally more powerful, that's called plot. Starters generally aren't, at least not from what I've seen. If base stat total meant so much for the writers as you claim it does Pikachu wouldn't be nearly as powerful in the anime as it is. For non-legendaries inherent power in the anime is far more closely correlated to plot reasons than base stat total. Like, Alain's Bisharp looks far more powerful than his Tyranitar. At least his Bisharp managed to land hits, his Tyranitar just got swept. Tyranitar in gen 7 also didn't seem more powerful than any other pokémon, yet its BST is higher than the Island Guardians.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  10. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    I find this nothing short of totally laughable that base stat totals apparently matter when it comes to strength in the anime. If that was the case, then I guess Norman's and Sawyer's Slaking should be able to defeat defeat most Legendaries with 570/600 base stat totals like Noland's Articuno, Brandon's Regis, Tobias's Darkrai and Latios, 50% Zygarde etc. Or say, Remo's Mega Garchomp should be superior to the Creation Trio of Dialga, Palkia and Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, etc.

    Base Stat totals totally do matter in the anime, don't they?

    And what's with this whole being a Pseudo is apparently a big deal in the anime? Going by the depiction in the anime, has being a psuedo apparently meant anything in the anime post Gen 1 (back when the rules i the anime were pretty lax; stuff like Ash having a crush on a girl, real life animals, real life locations, a Pokemon using like upto 10 moves also happened BTW, meaning that most of the stuff that happened back in Gen 1 aren't to be taken too much seriously)?

    Let's see: Provo's Dragonite got his butt kicked badly by Paul's Honchkrow, while even Ash's freaking Staravia (even before evolution) fared a lot better against, being able to tank a crap ton of more blows without being KO'd, unlike that "mighty pseudo" Dragonite.

    Ash's Goodra could only manage a draw vs one of Sawyer's weaker Pokemon Slurpuff, and lose to Alain's Bisharp which was a bit weakened by Hawlucha, despite being a pseudo.

    Sawyer's Salamence could only tie with Ash's weakest Kalos team member Noivern despite being a pseudo.

    Not to mention, that a few weeks ago, we saw a Salamence get beaten by Lillie's freaking Snowy of all things.

    Am I still supposed to take it seriously after all this aforementioned incidents in the anime, that BST and being a pseudo apparently somehow matters in the anime?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
    Lightning Bolt and Lunanight like this.
  11. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 #TEAMSOBBLE

    Not to mention the Tyranitar species, which IIRC, after "A Poached Ego" has always ended up jobbing against whoever it fought
     
  12. wolf jani

    wolf jani #ScorbunnySquad

    Why are you all being so rude. He doesn't claim that this is the only method. At least appreciate the effort instead of attacking him.
     
    Emelie, Lightning Bolt, JC317 and 2 others like this.
  13. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 #TEAMSOBBLE

    I'll admit it's a pretty interesting take on their teams' power, but BST in general isn't really that important (even in the main games the individual stats, movesets, and abilities are more important than the BST), and I'll always rag on the Tyranitar species' trarck record post-johto
     
    wolf jani likes this.
  14. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    I'm attacking the idea and validity of the thread, not the thread starter himself/herself. He/she doesn't claim it's the only method, I never said that. But he/she clearly implies it's a method worthy of discussion by virtue of the creation of this thread in the first place, and I'm attacking that idea. I'm sure it'll have taken the thread starter some time to look up some teams and numbers and sum those numbers, but I don't have to appreciate that if I don't see any value in that effort.
     
    keepitsimple and 345ash-greninja like this.
  15. AznKei

    AznKei Badass girls saving their boyfriends. XD

    Tbh, BST isn't the same thing like Power Levels from Dragon Ball Z, which I believe the OP was trying to explain. I remembered in the Namek saga the Ginyu Force were scared when Goku had a Power Level higher than them, in which you won't see anything like "OMG! That trainer or Pokemon had a higher BST!" in the Pokemon anime.
     
  16. Sham

    Sham show the unknown

    I am confusion... what’s BST?
     
  17. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Superancient Member

    Why's that laughable?

    Slaking's theme is that it's very powerful, but too lazy to put that power to work. There have only been a handful of Slaking featured in the anime; it's made fewer appearances than Darkrai.

    Looking at Sawyer's Slaking, it (needlessly) tanked a ton of hits from Hawlucha, then OHKO it with a NVE move in Counter.

    That's not impressive?
     
  18. AznKei

    AznKei Badass girls saving their boyfriends. XD

    Base Stat Total...you know the total points of a Pokemon base defence, attack, special attack, special defence, speed and hp without the leveling up or boost items.
     
    Emelie and WishIhadaManafi5 like this.
  19. Sham

    Sham show the unknown

    Ohhh ok idc about this, thanks.
     
    Pikachu979 and Pokegirl Fan~ like this.
  20. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- L.A. Clippers > L.A. Lakers

    ???
     

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