Ash-Greninja vs Origins Red's MCX

[Shadao]

Red's.

For god's sake, he knows how to use the power of hype and even has a Mega Charizard X; Ash-Greninja's fatal weakness.

Red’s Charizard doesn’t even know Blast Burn, therefore argument is nullified.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Red’s Charizard doesn’t even know Blast Burn, therefore argument is nullified.

Red took down a Mewtwo.

Ash tried to punch it.

Who needs Blast Burn.

 

[Shadao]

Red took down a Mewtwo.

Ash tried to punch it.

Who needs Blast Burn.

Anime Mewtwo laughs at puny weak Origins Mewtwo.

I doubt Mega Charizard X can come close to someone who can control the very weather of the world.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Anime Mewtwo laughs at puny weak Origins Mewtwo.

I doubt Mega Charizard X can come close to someone who can control the very weather of the world.

It still did dispatch an Articuno (which was likely trained by Red) without giving much thought so IDK what makes you think Origins Mewtwo is puny weak. It's not on the level of OS Mewtwo for sure, but still definitely a high calibre legendary.

Ash-Greninja is undoubtedly Ash's strongest Pokemon by far, it has done stuff like substantially damaging a Champion's Mega Evolced ace by overpowering it, stuff which Ash and his Pokémon could only imagine of doing before (given that he was mostly stomped by E4 members before like with Flint especially in DP) but I heavily doubt that it can take down Origin Red's MCX (maybe a decent fight but I certainly don't see Ash-Greninja taking down Red's MCX).

Red's MCX > Alain's MCX in my book, and Alain's MCX > Ash-Greninja of course.

 

[Shadao]

It still did dispatch an Articuno (which was likely trained by Red) without giving much thought so IDK what makes you think Origins Mewtwo is puny weak. It's not on the level of OS Mewtwo for sure, but still definitely a high calibre legendary.

Ash-Greninja is undoubtedly Ash's strongest Pokemon by far, it has done stuff like substantially damaging a Champion's Mega Evolced ace by overpowering it, stuff which Ash and his Pokémon could only imagine of doing before (given that he was mostly stomped by E4 members before like with Flint especially in DP) but I heavily doubt that it can take down Origin Red's MCX (maybe a decent fight but I certainly don't see Ash-Greninja taking down Red's MCX).

Red's MCX > Alain's MCX in my book, and Alain's MCX > Ash-Greninja of course.

It’s a response to the idea that Red’s Mega Charizard X can defeat OS Mewtwo just because it did it with Origins Mewtwo. In other words, ha ha ha no.

Power Levels are inconsistent between universes. What I do know that Alain’s Charizard is specifically trained to be a bane of Ash-Greninja. Red’s MCX, not so much. As such, I see Ash-Greninja having a better time against Red’s MCX based on move set and battle styles.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

It’s a response to the idea that Red’s Mega Charizard X can defeat OS Mewtwo just because it did it with Origins Mewtwo. In other words, ha ha ha no.

Power Levels are inconsistent between universes. What I do know that Alain’s Charizard is specifically trained to be a bane of Ash-Greninja. Red’s MCX, not so much. As such, I see Ash-Greninja having a better time against Red’s MCX based on move set and battle styles.

I think origins followed the game mechanics, that means legendaries aren't as OP as they are shown in anime, not only AG has more higher stats then MCX also water type attacks are gonna be super effective against MCX. I think AG takes it.

 

[snorlax512]

It's not that straightforward as to who looks stronger. Red's Charizard obviously looks terrible with a poor moveset and no battle strategy from its trainer, but thats because it's confined by the turn-based world he lives in. Red's world is a much stricter adaptation of the games, where you can't utilise the environment or manipulate moves to your advantage (like using water-shuriken as a baseball bat.

If AG was in the origins universe he'd be confined by the loose turn-based system with no gimmicks, and if Red was in the anime universe he would probably be quite strategic (since he's the champion after all).

I'd put my money on Red though, since Red's Charizard is the probably the strongest entity in his universe (cuz Mewtwo is the strongest entity in the original games), whilst Ash-Greninja is probably not.

I also wouldn't place that much weight on movesets, since Ash commonly uses HM01 to counter STAB + tough claws boosted Doragon Cro.

 

[Mew2]

water type attacks are gonna be super effective against MCX. I think AG takes it.

Actually, Mega Charizard X is a Fire/Dragon-type, which causes Water-type attacks to only inflict normal damage, rather than super-effective damage to it. It might not mean as much considering Red's Mega Charizard X's moveset versus Ash-Greninja, but it could be enough for Mega Charizard X to pull off the win, though I it would likely have a harder time than Alain's Mega Charizard X due to its moveset not matching up well against Ash-Greninja.

 

[345ash-greninja]

It’s a response to the idea that Red’s Mega Charizard X can defeat OS Mewtwo just because it did it with Origins Mewtwo. In other words, ha ha ha no.

Power Levels are inconsistent between universes. What I do know that Alain’s Charizard is specifically trained to be a bane of Ash-Greninja. Red’s MCX, not so much. As such, I see Ash-Greninja having a better time against Red’s MCX based on move set and battle styles.

Of course no trainer Pokemon can even dream of beating OS Mewtwo lol; we saw that OS Mewtwo can even control the movements of a huge hoard of Pokemon effortlessly with just about using Psychic, it also had the power of manipulating the freaking weather of the entire area that was shown in the movie.

But just because Origins Mewtwo wasn't comparable to OS Mewtwo doesn't obviously mean that it still wasn't epic strong, it still was about on the level of a 50% Zygarde or a Groudon (without Primal Reversion) in my book. You have to remember that Mewtwo beat 5 of Red's Pokemon, which are also supposed to be highly trained as well and are at least supposed to have helped him a lot of battles against Gym Leaders/E4 Pokemon on his course to becoming a the Kanto Champion (it was confirmed that Charizard was the last Pokemon Red has left in his arsenal so Mewtwo obviously beat the rest of the 5 Pokemon he had with him then). And one of them even included an Articuno mind you (which likely received training from Red too as well). Granted that Legendary birds belong to the lower bottom spectrum of Legendaries and are likely amongst the weakest among Legendary Pokemon, but Mewtwo still dispatch it effortlessly without basically or hardly any difficulty.

Now if we judge via power scaling as per we have seen in the seen in the anime, what level of Legendaries could possibly obliterate/dispatch a lower calibre Legendary like a Legendary bird Articuno with negligible difficulty? I'd personally say that a Base Groundon/Kyogre can or a 50% can and Legendaries which are below their level (but still above the birds) like Tobias's Darkrai/Latios will definitely fail to do that. Which is the primary reason why I equate Origins Mewtwo certainly a lot below OS Mewtwo, but...still on the level of a Groudon/Kyogre/50% Zygarde.

If Red's MCX can go toe to toe and severely weaken Origins Mewtwo to the point where Red was able to capture it, Red's MCX should be at least on the same level as Origins Mewtwo...which means on the level of a Groudon/Kyogre/50% Zygarde. Now while both Alain's MCX and Ash-Greninja both are amazingly strong amongst regular trainer Pokemon, among whom one had the strength to defeat 9 regular ME trainers + 1 ME which was the ace of an E4 member Malva while the other was able to overpower the Kalos Champion Diantha's ace a ton a damage by managing to momentarily overpower it even after it Mega Evolved. But whatever way we do look at it, even Champion's Mega Evolved aces like Steven's Mega Metagross and Diantha's Mega Gardevoir would struggle as hell to defeat a Groudon/Kyogre or a 50% Zygarde on which level I think Origins Mewtwo. Alain's MCX by feats and scaling would be just about below Champion Mega Evolved aces (managed to beat an E4 Mega Evolved ace high difficulty whilst still in an exhausted state) and mind you it was doing well vs 50% Zygarde but still struggling and pushed back onto the defensive.

So I personally do think that Alain's MCX would give Origins Mewtwo a really very tough and hard fight but would still lose. And Ash-Greninja as per the KL finals go, is still about a bit below Alain's MCX, it lost about in a high-difficulty battle when MCX received prior notable damage from Pikachu while Ash-Greninja received slight fatigue before by fighting Bisharp before. So what I see Ash-Greninja doing against Red's MCX or Origins Mewtwo is losing after giving a tough fight where Red's MCX/Origins Mewtwo win whilst being at 30-35% health after the fight.

 

[blizzardblaze]

But threefourfive...based on how easily rhyhorn beat his jolteon in the viridian gym with a resisted thunderbolt, wouldn't you say he didn't really train his Charizard more so than the others, if he was able to last longer than it despite having a 4X type disadvantage against it?

 

[Shadao]

It's not that straightforward as to who looks stronger. Red's Charizard obviously looks terrible with a poor moveset and no battle strategy from its trainer, but thats because it's confined by the turn-based world he lives in. Red's world is a much stricter adaptation of the games, where you can't utilise the environment or manipulate moves to your advantage (like using water-shuriken as a baseball bat.

If AG was in the origins universe he'd be confined by the loose turn-based system with no gimmicks, and if Red was in the anime universe he would probably be quite strategic (since he's the champion after all).

I'd put my money on Red though, since Red's Charizard is the probably the strongest entity in his universe (cuz Mewtwo is the strongest entity in the original games), whilst Ash-Greninja is probably not.

I also wouldn't place that much weight on movesets, since Ash commonly uses HM01 to counter STAB + tough claws boosted Doragon Cro.

No. In Origins, you can attack without waiting for the opponent as Blue had demonstrated it with Squirtle. And you can walk on walls if Dodrio was any indication, so you can use the environment (and why wouldn't you).

And honestly, it's not merely movesets. It's how the trainers behave on-screen that is also factored in. Every time I see Red battle, I ask myself if the universe is giving him a lucky break with Giovanni's 2 v 6 Battle and far lower leveled Legendary battles because this fella cannot last that long in an anime battle. It's attack with Super Effective moves (if he has them) and hopefully something sticks. In fact, I don't even recall if Red use defensive moves at all. Double Team? Harden? Agility? Recover? No, he doesn't really use them. If anything, he's an all-out attacker and if you're going to be that, then prioritize the moves. Alain is an all-out attacker, but he has enough sense to make sure these attacks can do great amounts of damage to Ash-Greninja.

 

[snorlax512]

No. In Origins, you can attack without waiting for the opponent as Blue had demonstrated it with Squirtle. And you can walk on walls if Dodrio was any indication, so you can use the environment (and why wouldn't you).

I'm not saying origins is a literal adaptation of the games down to the last brick, but that its battles are based on game mechanics much more than than the anime. Yes, origins take into account that trainers are actual humans in that Red spent his turn blaming Charmander instead of giving an order, but in virtually all battles other than the one instance you pointed out, are turn-based. When I said using the environment I meant stuff like Infernape's underground flare blitz, Pika's iron tail to whip up a sand wall, or A-G's water shuriken into ground. Dodrio walking in walls requires no tactical awareness from the trainer to execute, and it'd be pretty dumb if it couldn't leave the ground.

And honestly, it's not merely movesets. It's how the trainers behave on-screen that is also factored in. Every time I see Red battle, I ask myself if the universe is giving him a lucky break with Giovanni's 2 v 6 Battle and far lower leveled Legendary battles because this fella cannot last that long in an anime battle. It's attack with Super Effective moves (if he has them) and hopefully something sticks. In fact, I don't even recall if Red use defensive moves at all. Double Team? Harden? Agility? Recover? No, he doesn't really use them. If anything, he's an all-out attacker and if you're going to be that, then prioritize the moves. Alain is an all-out attacker, but he has enough sense to make sure these attacks can do great amounts of damage to Ash-Greninja.

and I'm saying the moves don't matter that much. Base power has no correlation with strength, and STAB is basically irrelevant. Red's Charizard has a ranged attack in fire blast, a close quarter combat move in slash, and a guaranteed hit in swift which is good enough. (It's better than Ash Charizard's moveset if you ask me).

 

[Shadao]

and I'm saying the moves don't matter that much. Base power has no correlation with strength, and STAB is basically irrelevant. Red's Charizard has a ranged attack in fire blast, a close quarter combat move in slash, and a guaranteed hit in swift which is good enough. (It's better than Ash Charizard's moveset if you ask me).

Fire Blast, a range move with 85% accuracy and objectively weaker than Blast Burn, which has a 90% accuracy. And Ash-Greninja can increase evasiveness through Double Team. Swift is the only move that could still hit Ash-Greninja, but also known that Ash-Greninja also has a move that always hit no matter what with Aerial Ace. Movesets and battle strategies do matter in the long run in order to judge the two Pokémon objectively, especially since the writers ain't going to be showcasing an Ash-Greninja vs Red's Mega Charizard X anytime soon.

There's a reason why I don't challenge the idea of Alain's Mega Charizard X being stronger than Ash-Greninja for the time being. Red's Mega Charizard X, on the other hand, is a much more even match that I can see Ash-Greninja getting the edge.

 

[snorlax512]

Fire Blast, a range move with 85% accuracy and objectively weaker than Blast Burn, which has a 90% accuracy. And Ash-Greninja can increase evasiveness through Double Team. Swift is the only move that could still hit Ash-Greninja, but also known that Ash-Greninja also has a move that always hit no matter what with Aerial Ace. Movesets and battle strategies do matter in the long run in order to judge the two Pokémon objectively, especially since the writers ain't going to be showcasing an Ash-Greninja vs Red's Mega Charizard X anytime soon.

There's a reason why I don't challenge the idea of Alain's Mega Charizard X being stronger than Ash-Greninja for the time being. Red's Mega Charizard X, on the other hand, is a much more even match that I can see Ash-Greninja getting the edge.

OK first of all accuracy isn't even enforced in the anime, and second this is about Red's Charizard vs Ash's Greninja. The only edge in AG's moveset is double team, which is probably counterable by swift (which is a multi-attack AND tracks its opponent). Water shuriken isn't overpowering fire blast, and cut/aerial is on par with slash.

All I know is that neither pokemon's moveset grants a huge advantage over the other, and Red's Charizard is quite possibly the strongest entity in the origins universe so...

 

[Shadao]

OK first of all accuracy isn't even enforced in the anime, and second this is about Red's Charizard vs Ash's Greninja. The only edge in AG's moveset is double team, which is probably counterable by swift (which is a multi-attack AND tracks its opponent). Water shuriken isn't overpowering fire blast, and cut/aerial is on par with slash.

All I know is that neither pokemon's moveset grants a huge advantage over the other, and Red's Charizard is quite possibly the strongest entity in the origins universe so...

A fish in a tiny pond may be the biggest creature ever, but it's still a tiny fish in comparison to the lake.

 

[snorlax512]

A fish in a tiny pond may be the biggest creature ever, but it's still a tiny fish in comparison to the lake.

I agree that there are disparities in power between the origins and anime universe, but are the disparities large enough that AG can stomp 5 Champion levelled pokemon without breaking a sweat? I doubt it.

 

[Shadao]

If you are referring to Mewtwo, then remember the one crucial advantage that Ash-Greninja has over Mewtwo:

Dark-Type

Confusion has no effect on Greninja. Only Swift can damage Greninja, and it's not even a Psychic Move.

 

[snorlax512]

I mean can Ash-Greninja do the same as Mewtwo and steamroll 5 of Red's champion level pokemon? If he can't, I don't think he can beat Mega Charizard X.

 

[Shadao]

Considering that Red is rather lousy with the rest of his team (looking at you, Jolteon), steamrolling 5 of Red's Pokémon is not as hard as you make it out to be. Also, that implies that Mewtwo was not at full strength when fighting Charizard, which again blurs the line.

 

[Bortgreen]

Origins Red is actually the player so he would rather switch to Jolteon instead of dealing with some disvantage(even though MCX is neutral)
In an 1v1 scenario only levels matter