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Ash Ketchum: Doomed to failure?
- Thread starter Mayfan
- Start date
SaveOurPokemon
Original Series Fan
Ash is doomed to the endless nature of the series. He won't accomplish his goal, i.e., win a League or become a Pokemon Master (which still has yet to be clearly defined as a goal), until either they retire him as a character or Pokemon ends as a series.
Tom Greenville
Well-Known Member
You know, I think the writers missed the boat in the Tournament that's about to begin.
Or did they? Perhaps we can put this down to the format of Pokemon Battling: 8 Badges followed by a tournament. It's like having only March Madness without having the rest of the College Basketball Season. (Which isn't that far from public perception, as the NFL and Daytona keep American Sports awareness off of Basketball period (the Big 3 of South Florida being an aberration for this year) until the last week of February; just one week before Conference Tournament Season.) It gives good climatic stakes, but doesn't allow for much development. One false move more than your opponent, and you're gone. It can be shown that winning a tournament does not mean that you are necessarily the best, and with a larger field there is larger room for doubt, (especially with "random" seeding,) but there are not enough tournaments to display that point.
Gary serves this purpose whenever Ash completes an Order Challenge: Note that after both beating the Pummelo Gym and gaining the Bravery Symbol, Gary was there to knock Ash's ego down a peg in a 1-on-1.
This is, to me, the chief appeal (pun unintended) of Contests: We can see a coordinator experience ups and downs over the course of months (our time) and go through a whole cycle in about a year. For Ash to go through a "cycle", it would take a decade's worth of shows.
On the other hand, perhaps the writers have this notion that Winning a Regional Tournament = Being a Pokemon Master. Or perhaps that kids would have this notion. If the latter, then they need to let him win once then lose to an Elite afterwards (or just own up to losing to Elites and say he still needs to grow.) If the former...
They could've let Ash win here... because this would be the last Tournament for a while in his home country. Ash not being on Home soil could've been a good "out" as to why he wouldn't win in Isshu.
Or did they? Perhaps we can put this down to the format of Pokemon Battling: 8 Badges followed by a tournament. It's like having only March Madness without having the rest of the College Basketball Season. (Which isn't that far from public perception, as the NFL and Daytona keep American Sports awareness off of Basketball period (the Big 3 of South Florida being an aberration for this year) until the last week of February; just one week before Conference Tournament Season.) It gives good climatic stakes, but doesn't allow for much development. One false move more than your opponent, and you're gone. It can be shown that winning a tournament does not mean that you are necessarily the best, and with a larger field there is larger room for doubt, (especially with "random" seeding,) but there are not enough tournaments to display that point.
Gary serves this purpose whenever Ash completes an Order Challenge: Note that after both beating the Pummelo Gym and gaining the Bravery Symbol, Gary was there to knock Ash's ego down a peg in a 1-on-1.
This is, to me, the chief appeal (pun unintended) of Contests: We can see a coordinator experience ups and downs over the course of months (our time) and go through a whole cycle in about a year. For Ash to go through a "cycle", it would take a decade's worth of shows.
On the other hand, perhaps the writers have this notion that Winning a Regional Tournament = Being a Pokemon Master. Or perhaps that kids would have this notion. If the latter, then they need to let him win once then lose to an Elite afterwards (or just own up to losing to Elites and say he still needs to grow.) If the former...
They couldn't allow Ash to win a Pokemon League because he's the star of the Pokemon Anime. So as long as ShoPro got the license to continue making Pokemon Anime, He will never achieve his goals. Besides, as far as ShoPro concerned, there should be a fan base for each series they done.
MidnightMelody
Hopeful for Gen 8
I don't see losing league is a failure at all. He catches pokemon that he will use in other leagues. If he did not use his older pokemon in Sinnoh he would have not made it to the top 4. Its like Camp Rock 2 they did not win the Final Jam but in the end they were the real winners!
Ash will possibly become pokemon master when the show ends, if he became master now the show would have to end.
I don´t get the argument that they should change ash for another protagonist just so he could win the league. If they did that the show would go on with the same old formula just with a new character, and what´s the point with that? It wouldn´t become more fun or interesting, since it would be exactly the same.
Ithink the animé should change but keep ash. Ash should win a league and then go on to meet the elite four. They should drop the whole gym leader formula cause it is pretty predictable and boring by now and instead ash should compete in some kind of elite tournaments or something like that.
I don´t get the argument that they should change ash for another protagonist just so he could win the league. If they did that the show would go on with the same old formula just with a new character, and what´s the point with that? It wouldn´t become more fun or interesting, since it would be exactly the same.
Ithink the animé should change but keep ash. Ash should win a league and then go on to meet the elite four. They should drop the whole gym leader formula cause it is pretty predictable and boring by now and instead ash should compete in some kind of elite tournaments or something like that.
DarthVader
Well-Known Member
But future Pokemon games would be set in Japanese regions so Ash would go back there in the anime.
heartful cry
I never felt like...
What "Pokemon Master" actually entails is never really elaborated on, but even if he does become Champion, that doesn't necessarily mean he'll become a Pokemon Master. According to Ash, "Pokemon Master" is beyond "Champion", so even if he becomes regional Champion, that still won't make him a Master.
But honestly, the idea of him becoming Champion before the show's end is ludicrous. Just the idea of him defeating a member of the Elite Four would already be a bad idea. The Elite Four are the best trainers a region has to offer, and the Champion is even better, the very best of the very best. If Ash were to defeat even one member of the Elite Four, then he'd be amongst the top twenty or so trainers in the entire world. This would be terrible for story-writing purposes, since that would mean that only other Elite-ranked trainers would possibly be able to challenge him.
Half the show is centred around Ash's journey, and tournaments are simply the climax of that journey, the goal that he set out for. By making him Champion, the "journey" aspect of the series would be completely torn down, and the show would be nothing but an unending battle-fest. Pokemon isn't that kind of show.
Now there's the argument that he could do what he normally does and and start fresh in a new region with just Pikachu. But that would be even more senseless than what he's doing now. Becoming Champion isn't simply a matter of having the strongest Pokemon, but also being a sharp strategist and unrivaled tactician. If Ash wants to become Champion, he'd have to have skills far beyond what he currently has, and by actually becoming Champion, it would be confirmation that his ability as a trainer is of the highest class. This would make the concept of him losing to anyone other than an Elite Four member or Champion absolutely ridiculous. Even if he started over, his sheer skill would allow him to plow through any league. And if he actually LOST to another normal trainer or gym leader, then everyone would simply cry foul at that.
Note that Ash is a normal trainer. In the beginning, he didn't have any particular talent for Pokemon Training, and the skills and ability he displays now are the result of journey after journey. In other words, he got this far not through innate talent, but sheer hard work and determination. And he's up against hundreds, thousands of other trainers who also work hard to get where they are, some simply born more talented than he is. Furthermore, the Elite Fours and Champions of the various regions are trainers who have managed to get to the very top AND defend their positions presumably for several years, at least. In other words, these trainers have gone undefeated for SEVERAL YEARS, despite hundreds of ambitious trainers just like Ash challenging them constantly. Only the very best of those Trainers will be able to win a tournament, securing the right to challenge them, and even then, only the very best of THOSE trainers will even be able to take on the first Elite Four member and possibly win.
The main problem here is that people are constantly comparing the show to the games. In the games, a random ten year old in a no-name town journeys to become the most powerful Trainer in a given region. But, see, for the purposes of gameplay, the protagonist of each of those games is constantly viewed as an immensely talented trainer who was simply born with innate talents that allow them to obliterate any trainer in their path and become league champion in very little time. The protagonist defeats trainers many times more experienced than they are and obtain the title that hundreds, thousands have sought for all in a matter of maybe a month or so, tops. But that wouldn't work in the anime. If Ash won every single battle, that would be boring. If Ash became the strongest trainer, that would also be boring.
Ash is still young. He's ten years old. While it's true that the anime's concept of time is a bit... okay, COMPLETELY nonsensical, the fact remains that he's been on his journey for less than a year. The fact that he's managed to get to the top four of a Pokemon League tournament is nothing short of ASTOUNDING, and he got that far through sheer hard work and unrelenting determination. He's still learning, still growing, still developing his skills, and someday, surely, he'll be able to see the realization of his dreams. But not yet. Not now.
Of course, there's the argument that they should simply replace Ash for another trainer. But do we really want that? Do we honestly want another hundred episodes of a complete newbie kid making amateur mistakes, slowly and steadily growing to become a better trainer? That's just opening up a whole 'nother can of worms. Many viewers were barely able to stomach Ash's perceived "stupidity" during his Kanto journey, and a repeat of that won't please anyone. That's not even going into the sheer amount of outrage that will no doubt erupt at the thought of Ash, the same character so many fans have grown to adore over the years, being replaced by what will inevitably be viewed as a replacement scrappy.
But honestly, the idea of him becoming Champion before the show's end is ludicrous. Just the idea of him defeating a member of the Elite Four would already be a bad idea. The Elite Four are the best trainers a region has to offer, and the Champion is even better, the very best of the very best. If Ash were to defeat even one member of the Elite Four, then he'd be amongst the top twenty or so trainers in the entire world. This would be terrible for story-writing purposes, since that would mean that only other Elite-ranked trainers would possibly be able to challenge him.
Half the show is centred around Ash's journey, and tournaments are simply the climax of that journey, the goal that he set out for. By making him Champion, the "journey" aspect of the series would be completely torn down, and the show would be nothing but an unending battle-fest. Pokemon isn't that kind of show.
Now there's the argument that he could do what he normally does and and start fresh in a new region with just Pikachu. But that would be even more senseless than what he's doing now. Becoming Champion isn't simply a matter of having the strongest Pokemon, but also being a sharp strategist and unrivaled tactician. If Ash wants to become Champion, he'd have to have skills far beyond what he currently has, and by actually becoming Champion, it would be confirmation that his ability as a trainer is of the highest class. This would make the concept of him losing to anyone other than an Elite Four member or Champion absolutely ridiculous. Even if he started over, his sheer skill would allow him to plow through any league. And if he actually LOST to another normal trainer or gym leader, then everyone would simply cry foul at that.
Note that Ash is a normal trainer. In the beginning, he didn't have any particular talent for Pokemon Training, and the skills and ability he displays now are the result of journey after journey. In other words, he got this far not through innate talent, but sheer hard work and determination. And he's up against hundreds, thousands of other trainers who also work hard to get where they are, some simply born more talented than he is. Furthermore, the Elite Fours and Champions of the various regions are trainers who have managed to get to the very top AND defend their positions presumably for several years, at least. In other words, these trainers have gone undefeated for SEVERAL YEARS, despite hundreds of ambitious trainers just like Ash challenging them constantly. Only the very best of those Trainers will be able to win a tournament, securing the right to challenge them, and even then, only the very best of THOSE trainers will even be able to take on the first Elite Four member and possibly win.
The main problem here is that people are constantly comparing the show to the games. In the games, a random ten year old in a no-name town journeys to become the most powerful Trainer in a given region. But, see, for the purposes of gameplay, the protagonist of each of those games is constantly viewed as an immensely talented trainer who was simply born with innate talents that allow them to obliterate any trainer in their path and become league champion in very little time. The protagonist defeats trainers many times more experienced than they are and obtain the title that hundreds, thousands have sought for all in a matter of maybe a month or so, tops. But that wouldn't work in the anime. If Ash won every single battle, that would be boring. If Ash became the strongest trainer, that would also be boring.
Ash is still young. He's ten years old. While it's true that the anime's concept of time is a bit... okay, COMPLETELY nonsensical, the fact remains that he's been on his journey for less than a year. The fact that he's managed to get to the top four of a Pokemon League tournament is nothing short of ASTOUNDING, and he got that far through sheer hard work and unrelenting determination. He's still learning, still growing, still developing his skills, and someday, surely, he'll be able to see the realization of his dreams. But not yet. Not now.
Of course, there's the argument that they should simply replace Ash for another trainer. But do we really want that? Do we honestly want another hundred episodes of a complete newbie kid making amateur mistakes, slowly and steadily growing to become a better trainer? That's just opening up a whole 'nother can of worms. Many viewers were barely able to stomach Ash's perceived "stupidity" during his Kanto journey, and a repeat of that won't please anyone. That's not even going into the sheer amount of outrage that will no doubt erupt at the thought of Ash, the same character so many fans have grown to adore over the years, being replaced by what will inevitably be viewed as a replacement scrappy.
TLDR: Pokemon Master is the BEST pokemon Trainer EVER. Also if Ash beat the Champ of any region, then he's the Best Trainer EVER.
This is why he will never become a Pokemon Master. He needs to win at least 4-5 leagues, and till now he lost in 4 leagues. Then, he needs to beat the E4 members of every region and the champion.
Anyway, to be honest, it will take at least another 20 years to do so, so I think after he will win the league, if and when, the series will end.
BlueVapor
Well-Known Member
Actually, Ash got Top 8 in the Johto League :/
As for what a Pokemon Master is, I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, but I assume it's just a very strong trainer, one who can beat everyone else, so basically someone who can win a league/beat the Elite Four and Champion.
GetOutOfBox
Original Series Fan
I actually don't want the show to end with a generic "and he accomplished all of his goals and lived happily ever after" ending, I would much prefer it to end on a cliff hanger (as long as it wasn't shitty) or at least leave Ash's path to becoming a master open.
Either way, considering that he's only caught about 1% of the worlds known pokemon (and that number keeps increasing, at the rate he's collecting pokemon vs the amount of pokemon being discovered he's never going to catch them all, not even close), and that he get's Oaked and his experience "level" reset each time he goes to a new region, it's highly unlikely he'll become a pokemon master at all, let alone during his youth.
Of course, its almost guaranteed that the show's producers will simply decide they're losing money making it and cancel the show, or that the writers will conjure up a hasty generic final showdown between Ash and some ultra-uber-king-champion of the final-final-final-final(final *10) pokemon league with him winning, and the show ending with him returning to Pallet Town, throw in a few underwear jokes, have some party and end with him making some meaningless statement that is supposed to imply his journey will continue, even though we all will know it really won't.
Either way, considering that he's only caught about 1% of the worlds known pokemon (and that number keeps increasing, at the rate he's collecting pokemon vs the amount of pokemon being discovered he's never going to catch them all, not even close), and that he get's Oaked and his experience "level" reset each time he goes to a new region, it's highly unlikely he'll become a pokemon master at all, let alone during his youth.
Of course, its almost guaranteed that the show's producers will simply decide they're losing money making it and cancel the show, or that the writers will conjure up a hasty generic final showdown between Ash and some ultra-uber-king-champion of the final-final-final-final(final *10) pokemon league with him winning, and the show ending with him returning to Pallet Town, throw in a few underwear jokes, have some party and end with him making some meaningless statement that is supposed to imply his journey will continue, even though we all will know it really won't.
Pinsirius
Sentimental Fool ;)
Ignoring Pokemon's being a living ad...
Ignoring "Pokemon Master" being poor defined (I need to whip out the old-pseudo handbook, love that thing)...
The potential is there- Johto proved he could think on his feat in battle. His trials with Butterfree, Charizard, Pidgeot, Sceptile, and Infernape showed the depth of his commitment to his Pokemon. Several episodes and movies illustrated that it takes a while for him to break for a 10-year old (Anyone remember the "Trapped in the Snow Cave" episode in Kanto?) There are redeeming qualities to the the boy, obsessed with the subject matter though he is.
Ignoring "Pokemon Master" being poor defined (I need to whip out the old-pseudo handbook, love that thing)...
The potential is there- Johto proved he could think on his feat in battle. His trials with Butterfree, Charizard, Pidgeot, Sceptile, and Infernape showed the depth of his commitment to his Pokemon. Several episodes and movies illustrated that it takes a while for him to break for a 10-year old (Anyone remember the "Trapped in the Snow Cave" episode in Kanto?) There are redeeming qualities to the the boy, obsessed with the subject matter though he is.
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heartful cry
I never felt like...
Well, he's ten. If anything, he's a lot more mature than most kids his age, I can guarantee that; being obsessed with something he loves is nothing abnormal. But I think his greatest qualities are his undying passion and devotion, and his firm belief in effort and hard work. As long a he stays on course, becoming a Pokemon Master may be more than just a dream.
nuggetmaster
A Nugget Master
Like everybody's been saying, Ash is still ten- think about it! Placing where he's placed in the past tournaments is an accomplishment for him. It's just we kinda get tired of seeing Ash lose so many times... and recently, Takuto's team of legendaries? On one hand, it's bull. On the other, it show's Ash's growth from Kanto till Sinnoh- he beat down two legendaries! It show's that Ash has tremendous skill for a kid, although he still has much more to learn... It's only fitting that when the show comes to a close, Ash has an open path in order to become a true Pokemon Master. Maybe he'll win and be one of the top trainers in the world, but hopefully he'll realize that the best still have lots to learn.
Haunter ゴースト
Well-Known Member
I think Ash will always lose in a league until the very last series finale where he will win.
The day he wins is the day the series finish.
Still people can always hope that he will still win each league
The day he wins is the day the series finish.
Still people can always hope that he will still win each league