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Ash Ketchum: Doomed to failure?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by Mayfan, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Caseydia

    Caseydia Ace Trainer

    You're right about that. I don't want to keep watching Pokemon forever. Atleast let Ash get something done.
     
  2. Kingothestone

    Kingothestone Creamery Commander

    The definition of a pokemon 'master' is to catch EVERY SINGLE POKEMON and to become a champion of at least one league. While he may eventually become a champion (Orange Islands don't count due to a lack of E4), if he truely wants to become a champion, he has a LONG way to go. He needs to stop screwing around with helping all these pokemon he doesnt have and actually CAPTURE them. Additionally, If the writers had not chosed to underpower him with each new region, he would have already won a league. If he still used Charizard, Sceptile, Muk, Snorlax, and the like, he would most likely have won a tournament by now, and given the E4 a run for their money.
     
  3. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    Unfortunately, people use the "It will get boring if he just swept everyone" defense. They think Ash will lose entertainment value if he kept winning all the time.

    When people get past that, then we may actually have some progress. How is someone supposed to be a Champion if he keeps losing matches that he could win in his sleep?
     
  4. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    Catching has absolutely nothing to do with being a Pokemon master.

    This whole entire "catch every pokemon=win" thing completely originates from the former English slogan for the games "Gotta Catch Em All". The anime, as written in Japan, has never used that as a basis and the slogan there simply translates to "Get Pokemon". The anime has even gone to great lengths to demonstrate that some Pokemon are simply not meant to be in captivity, such as seen in Movie 2.

    Sure, Satoshi/Ash might've proclaimed something like "I'm going to catch every single one" in the first 20 or so episodes, but the anime was young then and did a lot of stuff that has since been retconned out.

    And come on, what does the act of catching a Pokemon signify other than you know how to throw a Pokeball?

    Again, quality over quantity.

    It would. A protagonist that is already set to win doesn't have much to struggle against. If he's always going to win, then there's no point in training and hell, probably no point in even battling.
     
  5. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?


    So Cynthia has no purpose whatsoever? If anything, she the pinnacle of what a Champion is.

    If Ash isn't supposed to win all of the time, then what is he supposed to become? Because a he sure isn't going to be Champion.
     
  6. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    She isn't a protagonist. She isn't even a supporting cast member such as the frends that travel with Ash. She's just a character who appeared several times during the Sinnoh saga.

    A protagonist that never struggles, that always wins (in almost any fictional setting, not just Pokemon) is going to get stale.

    Pokemon the show isn't a show that has a definite beginning, middle, and end. They pretty much abandoned that concept when they found out there would be a show beyond Kanto.
     
  7. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    A protagonist also has a penultimate goal that he eventually reaches at the end of the story. Ash's is to become a Pokemon Master. Eventually, that end will have to come to end. As vague as it is, it is a goal nonetheless. Something that can't be tossed out simply because the show could essentially go on forever.

    So at some point, they have to show that he is actually making strides in his goal. Getting further in competitions is one thing, but essentially he is moving at a snail's pace in a series that is on borrowed time. Winning a league or two would at least convince people that it may actually happen.

    And we have seen Ash struggle enough. Not just you average struggles. What he goes through is outright resetting of his entire character. He loses battles that he could have won blindfolded and apparently suffers from selective amnesia. If he wants to be a so called Champion, then stop having him lose throw away battles than even beginning Trainers could win.

    A Champion isn't someone who keeps losing, even if he is a so called protagonist. Think of it in Olympic terms. You aren't a Gold Medalist if you keep coming in last place. Likewise, Ash can't be a Champion if he keeps losing for the sake of the plot or marketing interests.
     
  8. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    That interview the guys over at Pokebeach did essentially confirmed the day Ash becomes a Pokemon Master is the day the anime series ends with the implication that the anime could go on for a very, very long time.

    Actually, yes it can.

    It's a hard, cold reality, but the job of the anime is to promote the games and the franchise as a whole. Satoshi/Ash is arguasbly the most recognizable human face associated with Pokemon. He's here to stay. He won't age in any meanignful way, and yes, there will be soft-reboots of the character and his skills.

    I take the show for what it is. It's little more than a 22 minute commercial for Pokemon games and merchandise that sometimes has cool battles and other cool interactions with Pokemon. You want it to be something else, but it just isn't going to happen.
     
  9. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    But an end was stated, was it not? Meaning, they are of course required to show progress towards that end.

    What kind of a lame defense is that?

    "Oh, Pokemon is nothing more than a commercial. So it's not contractually obligated to do anything other than promote the Pokemon".

    Pokemon is more than just some 22min commercial. It is also an anime. An anime geared at for promotion, but an anime nonetheless. By definition it is required to have a beginning, middle, and end. It doesn't have to be a good one, but one is required. Yu-Gi-Oh is in the same boat, but do you see its main characters lose every important battle? No. They actually get stuff done. Why should Ash have to be subject to constant resetting and idiocy when it is proven that it isn't required.

    And what does aging have to do with it? No one is mainly asking for Ash to get older. What they are asking for is for more progress in his goal other than getting to the League only to lose again.
     
  10. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    They aren't "required" to do anything besides produce a show.

    It's not a defense, it's the reality. Plot is secondary to showcasing the world of Pokemon. You can say they should do X, Y, and Z, but they haven't for 10+years and they aren't likely to start now.

    And by now, you should realize that.

    An anime is simply the style of animation that originates from Japan. There's no other "rules" for an anime. Pokemon is no more required to have a beginning, middle, and an end than Spider-Man, or The Simpsons, or the Flinstones, or James Bond is.

    And Ash doesn't lose every important battle (and if he did, that'd only be your opinion).

    And if you want Pokemon to be more like Yu-Gi-Oh, maybe you should watch Yo-Gi-Oh instead.

    EDIT: By virtue of being an anime, is Sazae-san (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sazae-san) required to have a beginning, middle, and end? It's been on the air for 40+ years.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2011
  11. parukia49

    parukia49 Well-Known Member

    But in most anime, the overall story continues i.e. it's not just a collection of 'random' episodes. Most American cartoons are just 'random' episodes. And Sazae-san is not your typical 'mainstream' anime like DBZ, Yu-gi-oh, Bleach, One Piece, etc.
     
  12. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    Again, if you're lookin for an anime that places story and plot high on the list, you'll always be disappointed in Pokemon. It has taken a backseat to showing off the Pokemon world for 10+ years with success. If you're looking for progression like you speak of, your best bet is to look elsewhere.
     
  13. parukia49

    parukia49 Well-Known Member

    Yeah, except despite being half Japanese, I'm not really that into anime/tv shows that much. I only just started watching the DP series recently because my aunt in Japan recorded them for me from years ago when I asked her to so I thought might as well watch them as she went to the trouble of recording them.

    I am pretty impressed with the DP series, however, especially the addition of Hunter J, a true villain which pokemon has somewhat lacked as well as the addition of Paul.

    Now kind of off topic but can you watch the pokemon movies in the cinemas outside of Japan? Because here in Australia, since the third movie, I don't think they have screened any of them and they appear to be direct to DVD/Video as I believe the TV show is not very popular in Australia anymore...
     
  14. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Banned

    Pokemon was just meant to follow Ash's journies as he discovered the world of Pokemon. It was never meant to have a big storyline.

    Occasionally there will be a good mini-arc or some good villains, but said from that, Ash and his rivals only getting any type of focus. They gave the female character her own plotline twice with May and Dawn, but now in BW they seem to have done away with that again.
     
  15. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    The movies not being in theaters has little to nothing to do with the popularity of the animated series and more to do with that theatrical runs are EXPENSIVE. Disney and many others have opted for straight-to-DVD for some of their biggest characters.

    It's just not practical for animated movies to have theatrical runs. Production costs are much lower to do a staight-to-DVD release.
     
  16. Nijaskills

    Nijaskills Well-Known Member

    The episode that aired today actually brought back the Pokemon Master goal, and seemed to define it as winning the champion league. Earlier in the Sinnoh part of the series (like, when Paul gets murdered by Cynthia or so), it was said that in order to even enter the Champion league, you need to win a league in your home region. This means that Ash needs to go back to Kanto AGAIN in order to get that far. However, since Unova is meant to be Kanto v.2, they might let him win this one (or at least get close), so he finally believes that he can win the Indigo league, and go home and try again. This way he can win something, without bringing the show's plot to a halt. I'm grasping at straws, but something like that may happen.
     
  17. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    Or maybe Ash moves to Unova after winning to take on the Champion League?

    . . . . . . Nah, thats just crazy talk.
     
  18. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    I think it's worth mentioning that it's a dub-only line. The Japanese raw is much more abiguous. I think Ash just says he wants to challenge the Champion some day and THEN become Pokemon Master. It makes no direct link to becoming Champion and Pokemon Master.
     
  19. deathseer

    deathseer Oh, u mad bro?

    In the original, Ash did mention something about "Champion League".
     
  20. UltimatePokemonExpert

    UltimatePokemonExpert Experienced Trainer

    He said in the final episode of the sinnoh leauge that if he wins in the champion league that he will be a pokemon master. In fact, once you're a champion or elite four member, technically they are already pokemon masters.

    Also, even if he ever becomes a pokemon master, which I think he will, I believe he will still go to new regions and keep battling. You aren't going to just stop once you reach the best. You keep facing new challenges.
     

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