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Ash needed better Pokemon to win Kanto League, or even certain gym leaders...

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
You forgot Alola. Yes he wasn't portrayed as strong in that league as he did in Sinnoh and Kalos, but Ash's battling strategies were still just as consistent and it was the first time it didn't feel like he was reset in terms of skill & experience. Plus, while his team started off weak in the Alola League, by the end of the tournament it became his strongest & most memorable roster since Sinnoh
Just like I was told that such and such battles at the Alola League were better than battles from previous leagues.I gave those people the benefit of the doubt when they suggested I should check them out,I did and ended up being disappointed.

So when you say SM Ash is just as skilled as DP/XY Ash I have a hard time believing that because the ones I seen him in (Alola League) I didn't see the connection.But like I did with the people before I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.If you can give me a list of episodes that shows these amazing strategies I'll look them up and see for myself.
 

Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
You forgot Alola. Yes he wasn't portrayed as strong in that league as he did in Sinnoh and Kalos, but Ash's battling strategies were still just as consistent and it was the first time it didn't feel like he was reset in terms of skill & experience. Plus, while his team started off weak in the Alola League, by the end of the tournament it became his strongest & most memorable roster since Sinnoh
Idk how Alola didn't portrayed Ash strong when he literally beat much stronger opponents than any other series
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
0.Paul (Highest Standard)
1.DP Ash (Highest Standard)
2.XY Ash
3.AG Ash
4.BW Ash
5.OS/Johto Ash
6.OS/Kanto Ash (Lowest Standard)

I only seen him battle once or twice in SM and wasn't too impressed so I'd place him at either number 4 or 5 but I'm leaning more towards 5.The general consensus appears to be that he's on the same level as AG Ash which means he's not at the very bottom of the totem pole like OS Kanto Ash.So the only logical options to place him in are the AG,BW,OS/Johto categories.
Skillwise I'd say SM Ash is the closest to OS/Johto & BW but the BW version of Ash at times showed glimpses of his DP self during battles where he'd come up with unorthodoxed strategies on the fly but there were also a lot of negatives with him as a trainer and a battler where he'd forget the things he's learned from previous regions especially from sinnoh and would make rookie mistakes.
 

Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
Just like I was told that such and such battles at the Alola League were better than battles from previous leagues.I gave those people the benefit of the doubt when they suggested I should check them out,I did and ended up being disappointed.

So when you say SM Ash is just as skilled as DP/XY Ash I have a hard time believing that because the ones I seen him in (Alola League) I didn't see the connection.But like I did with the people before I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.If you can give me a list of episodes that shows these amazing strategies I'll look them up and see for myself.
Like DP Alola Ash shown creativity with Electroweb so many times in SM, many times he use z moves with strategies to make best use of it like how he use Olivia's rock z move for his own advantage without taking any damage or use Normal z move against Gladion's ghost z move to make pikachu immune, before JN SM is the only series where Ash shown using past strategies multiple times, he beat Misty's mega Gyarados while Pikachu take almost zero damage, many more examples I can give.


And the fact that he face and beat more powerful pokemons in Alola than any trainer Pokemon he faced in entire DP or XY/Z, Kukui a champion opponent and Tapu Koko who is more powerful than some champion ace along with the most powerful z move of Alola, ok Mega Charizard x and Tapu Koko+Guardian of Alola is maybe debatable but Kukui also has another champion ace level Pokemon Incineroar while Alain only had Charizard

Only thing I can see DP Ash was above when it comes to shown more creativity with moves but than again Ash has to lose battles to come up with them while in SM the way Ash use Electroweb so differently shown much more useful that Electroweb help him beat 2 Legendaries, idk how in XY Ash shown more skills when he lose hope so easily while facing Viola and Ramos so Pikachu and others need to cheer him up or how he completely forgot his pikachu had electric moves when he face Korrina first time and get destroyed soooo easily, he even forget what he learn from past series and need Serena to remind him that he has his own battle style in Korrina gym battle the thing he learned multiple times while there is ZERO battle to prove Ash got downgrade in SM with his battle skills.
 
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You forgot Alola. Yes he wasn't portrayed as strong in that league as he did in Sinnoh and Kalos, but Ash's battling strategies were still just as consistent and it was the first time it didn't feel like he was reset in terms of skill & experience. Plus, while his team started off weak in the Alola League, by the end of the tournament it became his strongest & most memorable roster since Sinnoh
And in Kalos his team started off strong but ended up weak. The finals (aside from Pikachu pulling its weight) was a letdown and it felt like Greninja and the others shat the bed
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
Like DP Alola Ash shown creativity with Electroweb so many times in SM, many times he use z moves with strategies to make best use of it like how he use Olivia's rock z move for his own advantage without taking any damage or use Normal z move against Gladion's ghost z move to make pikachu immune, before JN SM is the only series where Ash shown using past strategies multiple times, he beat Misty's mega Gyarados while Pikachu take almost zero damage.


And the fact that he face and beat more powerful pokemons in Alola than any trainer Pokemon he faced in entire DP or XY/Z, Kukui a champion opponent and Tapu Koko who is more powerful than some champion ace along with the most powerful z move of Alola, ok Mega Charizard x and Tapu Koko+Guardian of Alola is maybe debatable but Kukui also has another champion ace level Pokemon Incineroar while Alain only had Charizard

Only thing I can see DP Ash was above when it comes to shown more creativity with moves but than again Ash has to lose battles to come up with them while in SM the way Ash use Electroweb so differently shown much more useful that Electroweb help him beat 2 Legendaries, idk how in XY Ash shown more skills when he lose hope so easily while facing Viola and Ramos so Pikachu and others need to cheer him up or how he completely forgot his pikachu had electric moves when he face Korrina first time and get destroyed soooo easily, he even forget what he learn from past series and need Serena to remind him that he has his own battle style in Korrina gym battle the thing he learned multiple times while there is ZERO battle to prove Ash got downgrade in SM with his battle skills.
None of this convinced me to how SM Ash is more skilled than the DP/XY versions.You mentioned Pikachu using Electroweb which it never used in the previous series,same with Z-Move.

Give me a list of episodes that show SM Ash's amazing strategies since the other guy couldn't do it.
 

Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
None of this convinced me to how SM Ash is more skilled than the DP/XY versions.You mentioned Pikachu using Electroweb which it never used in the previous series,same with Z-Move.

Give me a list of episodes that show SM Ash's amazing strategies since the other guy couldn't do it.
I'm asking same thing about how XY Ash shown more skills but you just keep saying he did without any proof,

So showing great skills with using Electroweb and z moves so different and effectively isn't a proof?

Look at both Hala's trial and grand trial battles where Ash use his surroundings for advantage and how he use his past strategies which help him with z move while in DP and XY Ash lose first gym battle like a fodder trainer and need to come up with something to win while in SM Ash come up with strategy in the middle of battle without needing a rematch, how he take Olivia's rock z move for his own advantage while that both Rockruff and Rowlet take zero damage or use Rock tomb climb technique to beat her Lycanroc, look at Ash vs Misty, Ash vs Gladion in Poni island where he quickly adapt to his surroundings, how effectively he use Electroweb against Mimikyu, Hapu's Mudsdale, stopping Guzzlord, beat Silvally along with Iron tail combo and against Tapu Koko to trap and cancel his Nature madness which is faaar better and useful than any strategy Ash use against any legendary/Mythical Pokemon.

In Ash vs Gladion in league Ash probably use as much strategy as he use against Paul in league, like using Electroweb to power up iron tail to beat Silvally which is better than anything Ash use against Paul EXCEPT underground flare blitz but than Ash use normal z move against ghost z move to make Pikachu immune which is as amazing as the best strategy Ash use against Paul, using Gladion stone edge for his own advantage and saving counter until last moment to score a win.

DP Ash lose lots of battles to come up with strategies while in SM he come up with them in the middle of battle like SM against Hala shown far more skillful trainer than DP or XY Ash when they battle first gym leader, in XY Ash got depress so easily for losing a battle and need others to cheer him up while Ash was destroyed by Nanu but he immediately cheer up at Accerola house himself and tell Lycanroc that they will train hard and win next time, unlike Korrina gym battle Ash never shown that he forget his past experience in any SM battles.

Also why you keep ignoring the FACT that Ash beat more powerful opponents in SM than any trainer Pokemon he faced in DP or XY/X?
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
I'm asking same thing about how XY Ash shown more skills but you just keep saying he did without any proof,

So showing great skills with using Electroweb and z moves so different and effectively isn't a proof?

Look at both Hala's trial and grand trial battles where Ash use his surroundings for advantage and how he use his past strategies which help him with z move while in DP and XY Ash lose first gym battle like a fodder trainer and need to come up with something to win while in SM Ash come up with strategy in the middle of battle without needing a rematch, how he take Olivia's rock z move for his own advantage while that both Rockruff and Rowlet take zero damage or use Rock tomb climb technique to beat her Lycanroc, look at Ash vs Misty, Ash vs Gladion in Poni island where he quickly adapt to his surroundings, how effectively he use Electroweb against Mimikyu, Hapu's Mudsdale, stopping Guzzlord, beat Silvally along with Iron tail combo and against Tapu Koko to trap and cancel his Nature madness which is faaar better and useful than any strategy Ash use against any legendary/Mythical Pokemon.

In Ash vs Gladion in league Ash probably use as much strategy as he use against Paul in league, like using Electroweb to power up iron tail to beat Silvally which is better than anything Ash use against Paul EXCEPT underground flare blitz but than Ash use normal z move against ghost z move to make Pikachu immune which is as amazing as the best strategy Ash use against Paul, using Gladion stone edge for his own advantage and saving counter until last moment to score a win.
So SM Ash is more skilled than DP Ash/XY Ash/Sawyer/Conway/Katie/Paul,now I've seen it all.SM Ash is #1.
-------------------------------------
Edit : I'm not saying SM Ash wasn't stronger than the previous versions,this was strictly about his skill as a trainer.
 
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Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
So SM Ash is more skilled than DP Ash/XY Ash/Sawyer/Conway/Katie/Paul,now I've seen it all.SM Ash is #1.
Wow wow wow how is Katie, Sawyer and Conway come into this? Are you Seriously comparing them too while Guzma shown similar thing like those 3 in battles just watch all the Guzma battles in SM, Ash and Gladion was even above him, at this point you're giving zero proof but continuously asking others to show.


Also read my comment again because I made some edit.
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
Wow wow wow how is Katie, Sawyer and Conway come into this? Are you Seriously comparing them too while Guzma shown similar thing like those 3 in battles just watch all the Guzma battles in SM, Ash and Gladion was even above him, at this point you're giving zero proof but continuously asking others to show, Gladion literally shown much more skills than Sawyer as Sawyer is toooo much dependent on his data that he was put in corner by Ash's weakest Kalos rival while Gladion shown power and skills even when he don't know anything about his opponent Pokemon, your comment become factually incorrect when you mentioned that you didn't watch SM entirely.


Also read my comment again because I made some edit.
Now I remember why I had this kid on ignore,because of clown **** like this.
 

Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
Now I remember why I had this kid on ignore,because of clown **** like this.
You're acting more like a idiot who run away from facts, can't show any proof but asking others to do that.

Other than idiots who judge the series even without watching it? Even a kid can see something so simple unlike you who don't know what he is talking about
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
The power scaling arguments are always so exhausting here, mostly coz it's always based on self logic and bias, for both sides. (SM Ash being comparable to OS/BW Ash is the dumbest thing I've heard here and a clear bias against him coz he was made more comedic in the series and had a change of an artstyle)
But I think what sealed the deal for me when it comes to these arguments is that the writers themselves don't give a **** about it lol, as shown in the Iris episode. It's just ridiculous at this point and the best way to judge IS by what the narrative shows, not one's own personal arbitrary logic the writers don't really care for
 

Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
The power scaling arguments are always so exhausting here, mostly coz it's always based on self logic and bias, for both sides. (SM Ash being comparable to OS/BW Ash is the dumbest thing I've heard here and a clear bias against him coz he was made more comedic in the series and had a change of an artstyle)
But I think what sealed the deal for me when it comes to these arguments is that the writers themselves don't give a **** about it lol, as shown in the Iris episode. It's just ridiculous at this point and the best way to judge IS by what the narrative shows, not one's own personal arbitrary logic the writers don't really care for
True saying SM Ash has lower skills than even BW remind of that person who say Trip is better rival than Paul which is as rediculous as this
 

Antiyonder

Overlord
Ash didn’t need better Pokémon. He needed to be a better Trainer by actually training. That’s kind of the whole point of the first season

This. It's why his battle against Erika is disappointing. He had several Pokémon suitable for battle (one of which was used in Charmander).

Even if type advantage doesn't guarantee certain victory there was also Pidgeotto who could repel say Gloom's stench with some Flying Type attacks.

Plus the fact that she didn't really have Pokémon who were hyped up like Onix or Kadabra. No reason he couldn't have had a conceivable win through battle.

It's funny cause that bit from "Ash Catches a Pokémon" as Suede puts it seems like a Take That towards animes where the protagonist coasts through on luck and heart, but that's pretty much what the original episodes ended up doing.

I don't know. Was him losing in the Indigo League always planned even when his story was to concluded with it?
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I don't know. Was him losing in the Indigo League always planned even when his story was to concluded with it?
Considering that the Pokémon anime was originally planned to run for 1.5 years, probably not. Charizard's disobedient phase may never exist, or it may have ended right before the league, so Ash vs Ritchie in the way we know could never happen in the original schedule.
 
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