Ash Pokemon [Lucario vs Charizard]

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Ash becoming champion level in a short amount of time with little to no on screen training to show for it,Iris becoming Champion in a short amount of time,Paul (Still Frontier Brain level allegedly) battling Ash (Champion level) on equal footing and defeating one of Ash's pokemon (Dragonite) and Misty defeating Ash's Corphish just proves the overall powerscaling in JN is bullsh*t.

So I'm not gonna make a big fuss if someone thinks most of Ash's old aces are still among Ash's strongest or if someone thinks Ash's Journeys team is several tiers above all of Ash's older pokemon because I've been on both sides.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Ash becoming champion level in a short amount of time with little to no on screen training to show for it,Iris becoming Champion in a short amount of time,Paul (Still Frontier Brain level allegedly) battling Ash (Champion level) on equal footing and defeating one of Ash's pokemon (Dragonite) and Misty defeating Ash's Corphish just proves the overall powerscaling in JN is bullsh*t.

So I'm not gonna make a big fuss if someone thinks most of Ash's old aces are still among Ash's strongest or if someone thinks Ash's Journeys team is several tiers above all of Ash's older pokemon because I've been on both sides.

That's because JN is absolute bs, the writers will do what they want with the power levels I'm sure in their heads even lycanrock is stronger than Sirfetch but they surely they were forced to use new creatures because GALAR. But whatever, I'm just rambling...

 

[Ragnarok4]

Anyway, this poll was to know the opinion of the people, It seems that most do not like Lucario as I imagined

 

[AJ97]

Although I think it's exaggerated, I can see Mega Lucario winning ,on the other hand I wouldn't be so sure about Base Lucario vs Base Charizard, sure, defeating Gigantamax Duralodon is a great achievement but it's It's only possible if they let Lucario charge up all that energy, and Charizard did well against Articuno. Maybe Charizard is at level E4

Base Lucario defeated a Master Class tier trainer who is among the World's strongest trainers in the world, which stands above Regional

Ash becoming champion level in a short amount of time with little to no on screen training to show for it,

On-screen training is bs.
1) The PWC Is far more complex and challenging than a regular Gym challenge.
2) Ash spends less time traveling and is more time at his home base which suggests he has greater time to train.
3) Ash wasn't reset and shown to be just as skilled as he was from his previous series.
4) Ash started with relatively powerful pokemon contrary to most of his other adventures.

Iris becoming Champion in a short amount of time,

Game connection.

Paul (Still Frontier Brain level allegedly) battling Ash (Champion level) on equal footing and defeating one of Ash's pokemon (Dragonite)

Why is Paul "Frontier Brain level"? There was no indication or any official comment that stated this.
Paul was always a trainer who was just as good if not better than Ash. Him being capable of holding his own against Ash is by no means a stretch.

and Misty defeating Ash's Corphish just proves the overall powerscaling in JN is bullsh*t.

Um.. because?

 

[AJ97]

That's because JN is absolute bs, the writers will do what they want with the power levels I'm sure in their heads even lycanrock is stronger than Sirfetch but they surely they were forced to use new creatures because GALAR. But whatever, I'm just rambling...

So your point is writers got it wrong and so Charizard or Lycanroc should be stronger than Journey's team?

 

[Ragnarok4]

m.. because?

In my opinion, that defeat of corpish was a very logical moment for me, maybe that Pokémon had not been training and dropped to "Gym Leader Level", while Politoed is probably the Misty's second strongest pokemon

It's like not going to the gym to train after a long time (Talking about real life, but whatever)

 

[AJ97]

In my opinion, that defeat of corpish was a very logical moment for me, maybe that Pokémon had not been training and dropped to "Gym Leader Level", while Politoed is probably the Misty's second strongest pokemon

It's like not going to the gym to train after a long time (Talking about real life, but whatever)

I agree with this.

Ash's superiority in skill is very evident in the battle as Corphish was dominating at the start. However, Politoed just had greater endurance and > Raw power which makes sense considering it's probably been used and trained a lot more by Misty.

To me, it seemed a lot similar to Ash vs Barry (Where he used Gible against Empoleon). Where he battled more for fun versus trying to actively win.

If he cared about the latter, he would've just stuck with Pikachu who was waiting to battle.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

1) The PWC Is far more complex and challenging than a regular Gym challenge.

Yeah and?

2) Ash spends less time traveling and is more time at his home base which suggests he has greater time to train.

But that's just assuming he was doing that all that time and more often than he did in AG/DP/XY,there's still a lack of on screen evidence.

3) Ash wasn't reset

His Base Pikachu shouldn't have struggled against Bea's pokemon unless you had her on par with him as well.

3) shown to be just as skilled as he was from his previous series.

The biggest issue for a lot of people including myself was his power not skill.

4) Ash started with relatively powerful pokemon contrary to most of his other adventures.

That's the problem. Why were they so powerful during the beginning of JN compared to previous series?

Game connection.

This is the anime though and Iris was nowhere close to that when BW was still airing new episodes.

Why is Paul "Frontier Brain level"? There was no indication or any official comment that stated this.

He's clearly above the average gym leader we've seen throughout the series,I believe he was strong enough to win the league with what he had at the Sinnoh League,he wasn't up there with the E4 or Champions so he was either League Champion or Frontier Brain.

Paul was always a trainer who was just as good if not better than Ash. Him being capable of holding his own against Ash is by no means a stretch.

But apparently that isn't the case in Journeys but if you say it isn't a stretch that he was able to hold his own against Ash it hurts your argument about Ash and his current pokemon being tiers above Ash's older pokemon because Paul who didn't compete in the PWC managed to hold his own and managed to defeat one of Ash's champion level pokemon swirly eyes and all. And the pokemon that Paul used in that 3 on 3 could imply that those 3 are above Paul's Torterra/Electivire and I don't believe that.

 

[Lord Godwin]

At which points do you believe Ash NJ Team surpassed his Sinnoh, Kalos and Alola Teams?

 

[AJ97]

Yeah and?

It significantly matters. Gym challenges are about testing whether the trainer meets a particular checkpoint. The PWC battles are much higher stakes as every loss means your ranking keeps dropping even further and your chances of reaching the top keeps going away. A gym leader in the PWC will be fighting all out to win. However, a gym leader in a traditional setting will be more focused on testing the challenger's strength, to see whether they meet a certain threshold that would qualify them to receive a gym badge.

But that's just assuming he was doing that all that time and more often than he did in AG/DP/XY,there's still a lack of on screen evidence.

This is a dumb concept. We don't need visual confirmation to believe Ash trains. Of course, he trains. I mean, his whole thing is that he's a Pokemon Trainer invested in battling. Plus, it is heavily implied he constantly trains at the institute. Furthermore, his advancement in ranks off screen further suggests that he was battling and training again off screen.

His Base Pikachu shouldn't have struggled against Bea's pokemon unless you had her on par with him as well.

Bea is a Hyper Class Trainers (Among the 100 strongest trainers in the world). To top it off, she was able to make it to the upper part of the Hyper Class. To me being in the upper part of the Hyper Class is relative to being Elite four tier in the previous series , hence, strong enough to hold your own against Regional Champions (From the Previous series). Considering Drasna was there and so was Flint etc, this makes sense.

The biggest issue for a lot of people including myself was his power not skill.

That's the problem. Why were they so powerful during the beginning of JN compared to previous series?

I mean of course, Ash's growth in Journey was far more significant compared to all his adventures before. However, the series for the first time didn't necessarily represent Ash as an underdog. I mean, the first real battle he actually lost was against the Strongest Trainer in the World. Then the only real trainer he lost against, was Bea who was relatively skilled herself, and Riolu wasn't as strong compared to Pikachu.

This is the anime though and Iris was nowhere close to that when BW was still airing new episodes.

I fully agree with this. The only reason Iris is champion is because of the connection to the games and this series has primarily focused on that.

He's clearly above the average gym leader we've seen throughout the series,I believe he was strong enough to win the league with what he had at the Sinnoh League,he wasn't up there with the E4 or Champions so he was either League Champion or Frontier Brain.

But apparently that isn't the case in Journeys but if you say it isn't a stretch that he was able to hold his own against Ash it hurts your argument about Ash and his current pokemon being tiers above Ash's older pokemon because Paul who didn't compete in the PWC managed to hold his own and managed to defeat one of Ash's champion level pokemon swirly eyes and all. And the pokemon that Paul used in that 3 on 3 could imply that those 3 are above Paul's Torterra/Electivire and I don't believe that.

This doesn't make sense. Why should Paul's new team be stronger than Electivire or Torterra to be able to hold their own against Ash's team?
If Ash is able to raise new Pokemon to Master Class Tier, why can't Paul do the same?

The way I see it, Ash and Paul were relative in skill at the end of Sinnoh. Yes Ash beat him, however, he wasn't necessarily "Better than Paul". I guess Ash being unconventional and very unpredictable was his ace, however, Paul was in general the more better traditional trainer. If Ash can get strong and raise a team to be Master Class tier, so could Paul.

 

[AJ97]

At which points do you believe Ash NJ Team surpassed his Sinnoh, Kalos and Alola Teams?

Here's the way I consider the PWC tiers relative to Trainers we've witnessed in the previous regions.

World Champion Tier: Leon (Significantly >>> Anything we've seen in the previous Regions)
Upper Master Class Tier: Cynthia/ Steven (Significantly>>> Regional Champion Cynthia, Steven and all Regional Champions we see in the previous series).
Mid-Master Class Tier: Diantha, Alain, Lance (Slightly >> Regional Champion tier we've seen in the previous series).
Master Class Tier: Iris, Raihan, Flint(Regional Champion tier of the past. At this stage you're more than capable of being one of the strongest trainers of a Region and strong enough to be among the best in the world)

Upper - Hyper Class Tier : Drasna, Volkner, Bea (High Elite four tier compared to previous regions): I would compare trainers at this stage to be relative to Elite four members we've see in the previous regions (Flint Aaron, Bertha) and also Alain with MCX only). So technically, I'd rate current Volkner to be ~ Previous Sinnoh Flint/Bertha etc).
Lower - Hyper Class Tier: (Strong enough to hold their own against an Elite four member in battle): Tobias, Kukui with Tapu Koko, Brandon (Full Power)


To me reaching the Lower Hyper Class tier means you're more or less strong enough and very likely to win a traditional Regional League. This makes sense as the person who wins a traditional Regional League would then potentially challenge the Elite four.

That said, Ash had to overcome an even bigger Obstacle to enter the Hyper Class as Iris was a Regional Champion. I'd argue Iris at this point was between the Upper Hyper Class Tier - Master Class tier and Ash had to be at this level to beat her.

So in other words, Ash was already significantly capable before entering the Hyper Class which further explains why he rapidly reached the top.

Hence, in conclusion, I would argue Ash's Journey's team more or less reached his previous Regional League team status between his Great Class Battles; from around his rematch against Bea.

 

[Sham]

Idk what’s going on but Misty handing Ash his final L and no win after that, immediately after he won the PWC is peaks level of petty

 

[Damerdal]

Ash becoming champion level in a short amount of time with little to no on screen training to show for it,Iris becoming Champion in a short amount of time,Paul (Still Frontier Brain level allegedly) battling Ash (Champion level) on equal footing and defeating one of Ash's pokemon (Dragonite) and Misty defeating Ash's Corphish just proves the overall powerscaling in JN is bullsh*t. So I'm not gonna make a big fuss if someone thinks most of Ash's old aces are still among Ash's strongest or if someone thinks Ash's Journeys team is several tiers above all of Ash's older pokemon because I've been on both sides.

That's because JN is absolute bs, the writers will do what they want with the power levels I'm sure in their heads even lycanrock is stronger than Sirfetch but they surely they were forced to use new creatures because GALAR. But whatever, I'm just rambling...

Yeah, this.

Power-scaling and tiers made sense back in the day.

As I've said before:

My personal headcanon is that Ash brought increasingly better regional league teams per league conference, barring BW/Unova. However, the Kanto and Hoenn teams got better after their league conferences because Ash trained and battled with them in the Battle Frontier and beyond.

So the Alola team > Kalos team > Sinnoh team > Hoenn team > Johto team > Kanto team at the time of each respective league conference. This would correspond to Ash's better placements at the league conferences.

However, Pokemon from the OS and AG team are arguably better than many of the others for the aforementioned reason.

It was easier to tier Ash's Pokemon because we could compare them easily to stronger gym leaders, Frontier Brains, Elite 4, and Champions.

However, Journeys threw all of that out the window. Ash's Egg-mon Riolu -> Lucario beats Cynthia's almighty Garchomp after a single region's worth of training. It made no sense whatsoever.

The fact that Ash used zero reserves in the PWC meant we have no reference to compare how this Champion-level Ash using them would fare compared to his JN captures.

That's why whenever people ask how JN Ash would do with X team of reserves, the answer is literally unknowable.

 

[sutellakiara]

Damn, I can't make the same joke again.

 

[AJ97]

The fact that Ash used zero reserves in the PWC meant we have no reference to compare how this Champion-level Ash using them would fare compared to his JN captures.

That's why whenever people ask how JN Ash would do with X team of reserves, the answer is literally unknowable.

We do. We see Ash battle Misty with Corphish and lose.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

This is a dumb concept. We don't need visual confirmation to believe Ash trains. Of course, he trains. I mean, his whole thing is that he's a Pokemon Trainer invested in battling. Plus, it is heavily implied he constantly trains at the institute. Furthermore, his advancement in ranks off screen further suggests that he was battling and training again off screen.

Not really because Ash was always training in AG/DP/XY as well but it obviously was not enough to propel him to Champion level in just 1 region. We can say he was going towards that direction in XY and SM but that was due to the powerups (Battle Bond) (Z-Move) the rest of his pokemon in those regions were not champion level.

I mean of course, Ash's growth in Journey was far more significant compared to all his adventures before. However, the series for the first time didn't necessarily represent Ash as an underdog. I mean, the first real battle he actually lost was against the Strongest Trainer in the World. Then the only real trainer he lost against, was Bea who was relatively skilled herself, and Riolu wasn't as strong compared to Pikachu.

It still doesn't explain how he was able to reach that level so quickly when he clearly wasn't even there yet in XY and SM.

If Ash is able to raise new Pokemon to Master Class Tier, why can't Paul do the same?

That's what I was saying.

 

[Dark_King25]

Yeah, this.

Power-scaling and tiers made sense back in the day.

As I've said before:

My personal headcanon is that Ash brought increasingly better regional league teams per league conference, barring BW/Unova. However, the Kanto and Hoenn teams got better after their league conferences because Ash trained and battled with them in the Battle Frontier and beyond.

So the Alola team > Kalos team > Sinnoh team > Hoenn team > Johto team > Kanto team at the time of each respective league conference. This would correspond to Ash's better placements at the league conferences.

However, Pokemon from the OS and AG team are arguably better than many of the others for the aforementioned reason.

It was easier to tier Ash's Pokemon because we could compare them easily to stronger gym leaders, Frontier Brains, Elite 4, and Champions.

However, Journeys threw all of that out the window. Ash's Egg-mon Riolu -> Lucario beats Cynthia's almighty Garchomp after a single region's worth of training. It made no sense whatsoever.

The fact that Ash used zero reserves in the PWC meant we have no reference to compare how this Champion-level Ash using them would fare compared to his JN captures.

That's why whenever people ask how JN Ash would do with X team of reserves, the answer is literally unknowable.

If the Pokemon anime is consistent with its lore and power scaling in JN then Charizard should've been ash's most powerful base form Pokemon he had the more intense training in Charicific valley and professor oak's lab and other than Pikachu Charizard has the most experience battling legendaries. And compared to most of Ash's pokemon Charizard is shown to be the most driven mon when it comes to being stronger so I highly doubt that Zard stagnated post-BW when it comes to strength knowing his battle-hungry attitude so yeah if the writers are consistent with its lore then Charizard should be at least Pikachu level

 

[Kuzehiko]

Lucario stomps easily.

 

[0 Jordinio 0]

Charizard sneezes out a hot loogie and melts Lucario into a puddle.

 

[Rune Knight]

I know that type advantages tend to not be a thing in the anime, but damn it Charizard has 2 of them.