Ash vs. Paul - One Year On

[TheNewGuy]

Well, like 10 and a half months on. Well over a year since the Japanese version though.

Since we're well into Best Wishes now either way, I was wondering if it had been long enough since Ash/Paul had their league battle for the hype to have worn off; for it to have become "just another battle" like Ash vs. Brandon or whatever.

With that in mind, how highly do you rate that battle? On the spoilers board I made a topic asking if it was the best battle in the history of the series the day after it aired and responses were very mixed.

http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=463142

I was wondering if the initial backlash/hype had worn off and if, now, with a bit more of an objective view, the Serebii community would give this match the credit it deserves - the title of "best battle in the series' history".

 

[deathseer]

Still far off from the best and I still have the same opinions that I did when it first aired. Still seemed contrived in Ash's favor and for a battle that was supposedly to be the highlight of that League, it wasn't really that good.

But people seem to overlook that simply because of how the battle ended, and just ignore everything else that happened.

 

[Haunter ゴースト]

It was a good and very interesting battle, between each Pokemon they all had a moment in it, none of them were just there to faint straight away (example: Torkoal against Darkrai), ultimately it was the best thing to show Ash's milestone against finally beating his rival when it counts.

It wasn't my favourite battle at all, I can think of plenty other better battles, but it was good to show Ash's progress.

My only problem though with this battle was that it lasted WAY too long, 3 episodes? Surely it could have been cut down shorter.

One and a half/Two episodes at the most would have worked, but definetly not three.

 

[Endoplasmic Reticulum]

It was basically Ash vs. Pauls Drapion. Really, the rest of Paul's Pokemon did nothing. And they replaced his entire team with completely new Pokemon so Ash could have an easy win instead of developing his team to be able to beat Paul's old one. If Paul had his old team, then THAT would be the best battle of all time. Their Acuity battle was better IMO.

But I liked the length. If it was any shorter it would have felt rushed.

 

[Grey Wind]

I'm not sure if it was the best battle, but it was certainly one of the best. When you look back, there weren't many battles that were better than this. Ash vs Drake (Orange) and Ash against some of the Frontier brains were good, but this was definitely a great battle. It was long, but I liked that. The battles were well done, and it was well animated. The emotional background of it was good too, with Infernape against Electivire. I would have rathered that Torterra got a win, and Infernape didn't get three, but oh well.

Overall, I wouldn't call it the very best, but there's not many other battles executed this well.

 

[~Ace]

I really enjoyed the battle, Infernape vs Electivire was kind of a 5th gen look on like;

Electabuzz | Magmar | Jynx
Zapdos | Moltres | Articuno
Elekid | Magby | Smoochum
Eelectivire | Magmortar

Kind of got me thinking 5th gen Legends Zekrom | Reshiram | Kyurem

 

[AmbipomMaster]

I think it is the best of Ash's battles because it lasted the longest- 3 episodes -and like what Haunter said, every Pokemon contributed in the battle. I definitely think it beat all of Ash's other battles (although his battle with Harrison in the Johto League could tie with it)

 

[CyberCubed]

It's the best battle in the anime since none of the previous 6 on 6 matches were as good.

 

[TheNewGuy]

It was a good and very interesting battle, between each Pokemon they all had a moment in it, none of them were just there to faint straight away (example: Torkoal against Darkrai), ultimately it was the best thing to show Ash's milestone against finally beating his rival when it counts.

It wasn't my favourite battle at all, I can think of plenty other better battles, but it was good to show Ash's progress.

My only problem though with this battle was that it lasted WAY too long, 3 episodes? Surely it could have been cut down shorter.

One and a half/Two episodes at the most would have worked, but definetly not three.

I don't understand this criticism.

Think back to Ash vs. Gary. I love that battle, it was awesome, but just think about the logistics of the battle itself. It was a two-episode battle and as a result almost every single battle ended in one hit. That's just silly.

More battling is ultimately > less battling. Out of 12 Pokemon in that battle the only one that didn't have a good showing was Torterra, and that was a deliberate decision, not one born of time restraints.

Meanwhile you look at Ash vs. Gary and see Gary's Golem going down to one Dragon Rage, his Arcanine (which had previously looked like a BOSS) being destroyed by Snorlax in maybe two minutes, and his Magmar being beaten by like, one Megahorn from Heracross. Ash's Tauros and Bayleef looked awful too.

Three episodes means every single battle was considered and thought-out, got a decent amount of time and made little references to their rivalry so far, like Paul using the counter-shield (which was genius).

The only reason their previous full battle was 2 episodes long is because Paul crushed Ash 6-2.

 

[TheNewGuy]

It was basically Ash vs. Pauls Drapion. Really, the rest of Paul's Pokemon did nothing.

Every single one of Paul's Pokemon endangered Ash's in some way. Aggron pwned Pikachu with Metal Sound and forced the switch, while Gastrodon was all over Staraptor and forced a switch. Froslass really should have beaten Pikachu and Ninjask, which looked like it was just there to facilitate and awesome comeback for Gliscor, actually beat the crap out of Gliscor before going down. Electivire almost won the battle for Paul too.

I agree some of the decisions were weird - no Torterra from Paul? - but then that would have just made Paul a massive hypocrite. How can he criticise Ash for using the same team while doing the same thing himself? The only thing he kept was his Electivire and at Lake Acuity Paul used Electabuzz as a light-screen support, while at the League Paul used Electivire as a late-game sweeper. It was totally in-character for Paul.

Still far off from the best and I still have the same opinions that I did when it first aired. Still seemed contrived in Ash's favor and for a battle that was supposedly to be the highlight of that League, it wasn't really that good.

But people seem to overlook that simply because of how the battle ended, and just ignore everything else that happened.

Please be specific about "everything else that happened".

Was it Pikachu finally stepping up and beating one of Paul's Pokemon fair-and-square? Was it Buizel using Ice Aqua Jet to perfection? Was it Gliscor's triumphant return and defeat of Drapion? Was it Paul's genius use of Toxic Spikes? Was it the Flare Blitz-underground strategy to remove them? Was it Paul then "pulling an Ash" and improvising a strategy BASED on what Ash did earlier (when he used Electivire's thunder on the ground to throw up stones and attack Gliscor)? Was it the dynamic between the two characters, and the payoff to a buildup that was far more well-executed than what Ash/Gary delivered? Was it Paul using counter-shield to mess with Ash?

And then of course that is IGNORING the ending, which was perfect payoff. The Chimchar/Infernape/Blaze subplot was a fantastic addition to the rivalry - it gave the whole thing the necessary bit of extra spice.

 

[Haunter ゴースト]

I don't understand this criticism.

Think back to Ash vs. Gary. I love that battle, it was awesome, but just think about the logistics of the battle itself. It was a two-episode battle and as a result almost every single battle ended in one hit. That's just silly.

More battling is ultimately > less battling. Out of 12 Pokemon in that battle the only one that didn't have a good showing was Torterra, and that was a deliberate decision, not one born of time restraints.

Meanwhile you look at Ash vs. Gary and see Gary's Golem going down to one Dragon Rage, his Arcanine (which had previously looked like a BOSS) being destroyed by Snorlax in maybe two minutes, and his Magmar being beaten by like, one Megahorn from Heracross. Ash's Tauros and Bayleef looked awful too.

Three episodes means every single battle was considered and thought-out, got a decent amount of time and made little references to their rivalry so far, like Paul using the counter-shield (which was genius).

The only reason their previous full battle was 2 episodes long is because Paul crushed Ash 6-2.

Very true, and yes the three episodes helped lengthen and plan each battle properly, but I personally didn't enjoy it, I don't mind shorter battles involving one hit KO's.

Besides the fact it was Ash's last Sinnoh League battle, I enjoyed his battle against Tobias far more than I did against Paul and that was one episode long with plenty of small KO's.
Infact it is one of my favourite battles of all, so that's saying something.

And I enjoyed Ash vs Gary too despite the one hit KO's.

It's more of a personal opinion as I can completely see why other people would enjoy the battle for it's length and such.

But this isn't to say I don't like other 6v6 battles, I thoroughly enjoyed Ash vs Harrison and Tyson, although they were mainly for Charizard and Pikachu vs Blaziken and Meowth.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I don't get that.

Please explain how you can prefer quick one-hit kill battles to say, something like Infernape vs. Electivire where they knocked the hell out of each other, countered and counter-countered each other, had an amazingly well-animated punching sequence...I don't get how you can prefer something like Charizard vs. Golem to that.

I know I sound pushy; I'm not trying to make you think like me, I just do not understand how you can like Pokemon and think that. I know how conceited that sounds, it's just beyond me.

(I at least agree Ash vs. Trollbias was very good, but in a totally different way)

 

[deathseer]

I would rather see one move knock outs as well. Seeing the same scene of them punching and dodging gets boring after a while.

 

[TheNewGuy]

...Am I in bizarro world now?

Please somebody bring a voice of sanity to proceedings. Wow.

 

[Haunter ゴースト]

I don't get that.

Please explain how you can prefer quick one-hit kill battles to say, something like Infernape vs. Electivire where they knocked the hell out of each other, countered and counter-countered each other, had an amazingly well-animated punching sequence...I don't get how you can prefer something like Charizard vs. Golem to that.

I know I sound pushy; I'm not trying to make you think like me, I just do not understand how you can like Pokemon and think that. I know how conceited that sounds, it's just beyond me.

(I at least agree Ash vs. Trollbias was very good, but in a totally different way)

Well first things first, I don't think your getting what im trying to say.

I did enjoy Ash vs Paul, more importantly Infernape vs Electivire was the highlight and reminded me very much of Charizard vs Blaziken, apart from Ash won this time.

I just felt that, since Pauls team were changed around quite a bit, that the battle that all of the other Pokemon had together weren't as vital and shouldn't have been as long winded, since really they only signified how strong Ash had become to get the milestone of beating Paul.
If it was the same team they fought against back at Snowpoint, they would have had more reasoning to them.

That's what im trying to say, I don't feel it should have been as long as three episodes, when IMO we've had great 6v6 battles before with 'Infernape/Electivire' fights in them too which are a lot shorter.
Although no denying each battle showcased Ash's Pokemon and how strong they had become.

Besides that, the thing with me is I don't actually mind One hit KO battles (a lot of people hate them), which is probably why I liked the Indigo League so much (favourite saga), long winded battles just become boring.

I like 6v6 battles, Harrison's was brilliant it took place in three episodes but technically only lasted 1 and a half episodes since it began at the very end of one, and finished halfway through the third.
Ash vs Tyson was the exact same length.
Look how well them great battles turned out imo and they were half the length of Paul's battle.

Anyway yeah, there ya go.

 

[Morcombe]

I watch series like Naruto, Bleach and One Piece and battles in them can last well over 3 epsiodes so that doesnt bother me much, in fact i preferred it cause all the pokemon were able to showcase different moves and abilities. All 6 vs. 6 battles should be a minimum of 2 episodes imo.

I could never pick a favourite battle in the series but it is defo in my top 10

top 10 in order of appearance
Ash vs. Jeanette, Drake, Vincent, Gary, Harrison, Katie, Morrison, Tyson, Brandon (Regice), Paul (League)

 

[Nekaku]

It's the best battle in the anime since none of the previous 6 on 6 matches were as good.

Matter of opinion. I performed Tobias vs Ash and Tyson vs Ash

 

[deathseer]

I liked Ash vs Tobias more than the Paul battle as well. Just seemed like a more interesting battle.

 

[An00bis]

Yeah. VS Tobias was my favorite battle of the Sinnoh League. Then VS Conway.

Then maybe this because --

It was basically Ash vs. Pauls Drapion.

Drapion took out three of Ash's Pokemon and crippled two more with poison. Pikachu just so happened to escape being poisoned so it could be frozen instead which directly attributed to its only win. Infernape dominated on Ash's side with three wins and messing up Toxic Spikes for Paul.

I would have liked it more if it was a 3 on 3 battle. Paul with Electrivire, Frosslass, and Drapion and Ash with Infernape, Pikachu, and Gliscor. Then we wouldn't have to have seen great Pokemon like Torterra get humiliated.

Overall I felt there was a lot of stretching in that battle and not enough battling. It was just one of those annoying traits that most Advance Generation / Diamond and Pearl battles had. Whether it was Paul poking holes through Ash's tactics DBZ style with a monologe or random comments from the stands. Someone cut the entire battle to show just the fighting and it was about 15 minutes of footage. 15 minutes out of 66 minutes across 3 episodes. That's a lot of yapping.

 

[CyberCubed]

Ash had beaten most of Paul's other pokemon sans his Torterra and Magmortar.

Do people forget that Ash took down Ursaring twice, with both Chimchar and THEN Monferno? Did we need to see Infernape beat it a third time?

Honchkrow was beaten in Pokeringer and Weavile was beaten in the first 6 on 6.

I had somewhat hoped we'd get Torterra Vs. Torterra in DP191 as a last appearance for Paul, but that ship has sailed.