• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Ash vs. Paul - One Year On

Status
Not open for further replies.

Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger
Ash vs. Tobias was my favorite, and yes I do prefer one-hit knockout rather than dragged out slobber knockers.
 

BlueDragonfangirl

Well-Known Member
Gah Make me miss Ash and Paul's rivalry, not saying it was the best battle ever but it was one of my favorites in the league.
 

ChaosMage

Izit cuz I is black?
I'm struggling to think of a battle to top it. If Paul had used Magmortar, Honchkrow and Torterra then it would have been sublime. Drapion and Froslass/Gastrodon could still have taken the slots up as newcomers so it wouldn't be too stale.

I agree that Drapion was too dominant in the battle, but if it hadn't been established as such a powerhouse then Gliscor's accomplishment wouldn't have been as impressive. And Gliscor is my favourite of Ash's Sinnoh pokemon, so it was a big deal that the writers let it defeat something so amazingly strong.

Torterra DID get screwed in the latter part of Sinnoh, without question. It wasn't even balanced out with some decent victories, it became a laughing stock. When I saw that Ash's Grotle would unexpectedly evolve (it was spoiled a few weeks ahead in the opening) I thought it would serve a greater purpose. It was especially frustrating as an entire round was skipped over, and all we saw was Snorlax beating a Grumpig at the start of an episode. Could that not have been Torterra? Just to give it some sort of positive showing. It also got one-shotted after using Synthesis, which was very silly.

All that said, I can't think of any battle which had less flaws overall. It kept me gripped for three episodes, even when the final result could be seen from a mile off. That's not easy to pull off!
 

Yeul

Green Eyed Girl
I just wanted to see Torterra get a win. That's what everyone wanted out of this battle, yeah?
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah. Torterra being KOd after using Synthesis was really the only part of this battle that I would say was pretty lame.

-=-

I'll also add that to include Torterra in Ash/Paul would have had a negative affect on Infernape/Electivire and as a result the battle itself.

Think about it. Say the Infernape/Electivire battle ends in exactly the same way, but Paul still has Torterra in reserve. The whole thing becomes a massive anticlimax, does it not? So you have to have it end a different way.

Which then robs us of the excellent Infernape/Electivire battle, the excellent storytelling of that particular scene.

OK, so then say you keep the ending the same. That means Torterra has to go down sooner. I guess you could have Paul's Torterra play the same role as Drapion in this battle but then I think that would have been a little underwhelming too. Does Torterra deserve the title of "miniboss"? The one Ash beats just to get to the true finale, Electivire? I don't think so. I think that would be insulting to his starter.

So in that regard leaving out Torterra made perfect sense. The exclusion of Honchkrow, Magmortar, Ursaring et al - so what? Why would they necessarily be any stronger than, say, his Ninjask? I seriously doubt that all three of those Pokemon are on the same sort of level as Drapion.

Magmortar, Honchkrow and Ursaring ripping Ash to shreds at the lake was much more because of Ash's weakness - it showcased the gap between him and Paul, not the specific strength of the Pokemon Paul used in that battle.

tl;dr: Using none of the previously-used Pokemon except for Electivire made perfect storytelling sense.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Reloaded

Cause a pirate is free
It was a good fight probably not the Best fight but indeed a good one it did have some interesting moments which it kinda was drapidon vs all of ash's pokemon really Kinda felt a little long but pretty good much less annoying than the fight with tobias in my opinion.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
I liked Ash vs Tobias more than the Paul battle as well. Just seemed like a more interesting battle.

I also don't understand how anyone can think Ash vs. Tobias is better.

Ash knocking out Darkrai and Pikachu drawing with Latios almost single-handedly was pretty impressive and the Pikachu/Latios and Sceptile/Darkrai matches were really fun, but it made his Swellow look pretty weak, it made Torkoal look like an absolute joke and it took an absolute dump on Ash's flawless Guts + Sleep Talk + Megahorn + Heracross strategy. Heracross, the perfect counter to Darkrai, destroyed so easily - lame.

It was a 1-episode squash match, with another league-only "character" (read: plot device) designed solely to knock Ash out of the league. There was no real buildup for it and no real payoff either. The only thing they did well was having Ash put up a great fight.

Did it have the dynamic impact of Ash/Paul, the battles of Ash/Paul, the buildup of Ash/Paul, the strategies of Ash/Paul, the subplots of Ash/Paul, the payoff of Ash/Paul, the - dare I say it - emotional impact of Ash/Paul? Absolutely not.

Tobias/Ash was good aesthetically; it had legendary Pokemon being used in the league, said legendary Pokemon being KOd, really unusual things that you don't get to see very often. But those are cheap parlour tricks, only there to bring the league to a somewhat satisfying close. Ash being 6-0'd by Darkrai would have been terrible, so they did what they could with it.

It's style over substance.
 
Ah, Ash vs Paul, the battle that confirmed that Infernape really was broken and that Ash was unable to win without the use of Blaze.
 

BlueVapor

Well-Known Member
Mmm, Ash VS Paul didn't do it for me. Paul's team was completely different from what we were used to, so it seems like a cheap win, imo. Had it been Paul's old team, who knows, the outcome may have bee different. A good battle, but not the best.

If anything, I preferred Ash's battle with Tobias more.
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
Have you ever thought that if they made Ash this way, that they may have set Paul back too? No offense, but I don't think it would be right to turn the table for Ash and not anyone else who has been with him for years. I can see it now. Paul, the second version of Trip because of the writers vision to make kids happy. TROLLS!
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Go back 1 page and you'll see that I responded why I prefer 1 hit KO battles like Tobias's.

No you didn't.

Besides that, the thing with me is I don't actually mind One hit KO battles (a lot of people hate them), which is probably why I liked the Indigo League so much (favourite saga), long winded battles just become boring.

In that long post you made the only time you DIRECTLY address Ash/Tobias is this small paragraph.

It's a non-post and a non-point. Meanwhile, I analysed both battles side-by-side and came to the conclusion that Ash vs. Tobias is style and Ash vs. Paul is substance - thus preferring Ash/Tobias is a triumph of style over substance.

Ash/Tobias is all lights and flash. Things we don't usually see that will make fans happy; legendaries used in a league battle, legendaries being knocked out, Ash taking on a guy with two amazing Pokemon and (more or less) beating them both. It's great to see those things, don't get me wrong, but it's just style over substance like I said. No great buildup, no payoff, no strategies and counter-strategies. Full of squash matches.

Ash/Paul is more meaty. Dynamic, emotional, strong, full of genuine characterization. As good as it gets.

I mean liking Style more than Substance is fine and all, but you should at least admit it.

Ah, Ash vs Paul, the battle that confirmed that Infernape really was broken and that Ash was unable to win without the use of Blaze.

Infernape isn't broken. For one thing it does not have a win over a legendary on its resume - something Pikachu, Sceptile and Charizard all have - and for another it nearly lost to Paul at the league and did in fact lose to Maylene, Byron (with type advantages both times) and Paul's Electabuzz.

For another, Infernape and Ash proved SEVERAL times it could win matches without blaze. It beat seven gym leader Pokemon and three of Paul's (Ursaring the second time, Ninjask and Aggron) without it, needing it only to beat Paul's Ursaring (the first time), Volkner's Luxray and Paul's Electivire. Mastering Blaze and using it to ultimately defeat Paul was the conclusion of the entire Infernape/Chimchar subplot.

It was beautiful, poetic irony - Paul thought Chimchar was worthless without Blaze and released it. Ash showed that not only could Chimchar/Infernape be great without Blaze, it was also capable of mastering it - something Paul thought neither Ash nor Chimchar/Infernape would ever be capable of.

Another criticism that doesn't make much sense to me.

Mmm, Ash VS Paul didn't do it for me. Paul's team was completely different from what we were used to, so it seems like a cheap win, imo. Had it been Paul's old team, who knows, the outcome may have bee different. A good battle, but not the best.

If anything, I preferred Ash's battle with Tobias more.

The only one of Paul's Pokemon Ash never beat was Torterra and Magmortar. Magmortar never looked any better than any of his other Pokemon and like I said before, the inclusion of Torterra would possibly have ruined the battle from a storytelling perspective.

It was a good fight probably not the Best fight but indeed a good one it did have some interesting moments which it kinda was drapidon vs all of ash's pokemon really Kinda felt a little long but pretty good much less annoying than the fight with tobias in my opinion.

Don't get this either.

Drapion briefly dominated the battle, sure, but it was on top for maybe half an episode? Drapion ripped through Staraptor, Buizel and Torterra very fast, and then briefly battled Gliscor before going down.

Drapion was portrayed as incredibly powerful but he didn't dominate the battle and wasn't given an abnormal amount of time, imo.
 

AgentPierce

Mad science FTW!
Still far off from the best and I still have the same opinions that I did when it first aired. Still seemed contrived in Ash's favor and for a battle that was supposedly to be the highlight of that League, it wasn't really that good.

But people seem to overlook that simply because of how the battle ended, and just ignore everything else that happened.

I can't believe I'm actually seconding Deathseer on something but....seconded.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
Why do people act like this Paul team was weaker? Makes no sense, all of Paul's pokemon were as strong as each other.
 

Haunter ゴースト

Well-Known Member
No you didn't.

Yes I did, it very clearly states how and why I prefer them sort of battles, not specifically Tobias's.

Oh and have you ever considered it being an overall matter of opinion? No. Didn't think so.

In that long post you made the only time you DIRECTLY address Ash/Tobias is this small paragraph.

Yes but you never asked that, you said you wanted to know why I prefer battles LIKE Tobias's, which in other words means you asked why I prefered One Hit KO battles which I did.

[It's a non-post and a non-point. Meanwhile, I analysed both battles side-by-side and came to the conclusion that Ash vs. Tobias is style and Ash vs. Paul is substance - thus preferring Ash/Tobias is a triumph of style over substance.

Ash/Tobias is all lights and flash. Things we don't usually see that will make fans happy; legendaries used in a league battle, legendaries being knocked out, Ash taking on a guy with two amazing Pokemon and (more or less) beating them both. It's great to see those things, don't get me wrong, but it's just style over substance like I said. No great buildup, no payoff, no strategies and counter-strategies. Full of squash matches.

Wow, this is complete B/S.

This is your own opinion.

Tobias's battle was way more effective in terms of emotional effect TO ME.
The music played throughout, Ash finally turning his hat around again and Pikachu's final fight against Latios, everything fit together perfect.

The whole atmosphere was tense, we wanted Ash to win, but watched as he stuggle hopelessly, but nearing the end put up his last ounce of fighting skills and turned it around for the better despite losing eventually.

No great build up? This battle signified how far Ash and Pikachu had come, hell this is what the DP Saga was about, reaching the league, we knew this fight was the last stand for Ash, Tobias was kicking all the way though the league, but there's no doubting that the build up towards this moment wasn't good, it was brilliant, every saga we patiently wait for Ash's final battle in the league, this was it.

No payoff? The only way there would have been a payoff is if Ash won, the only reason there was payoff against Paul was since we've know Paul since the start of DP and seen him thoughout getting development.

No counter/strategies? Pikachu vs Latios "Jump on his back, and thundershock it", yeah there was.

Full of squash matches, yeah but that's because it was a 6v6 in one episode, it had to be short, and that's the whole point, I prefer one hit KO battles.

The only reason it lacked 'substance' is because Tobias was introduced with no backstory, besides that, this battle had substance and their is no reason to act like it had none and Paul's had everything.

Ash/Paul is more meaty. Dynamic, emotional, strong, full of genuine characterization. As good as it gets.

Yes this battle is more 'meaty and strong', that's because it lasted three episodes, and didn't squash battles, they were all to lengthy.

Yes it also had genuine characterisation, like i said before, Paul is Ash's rival, he already had a huge amount of development from early DP, for Ash the characterisation was for beating Paul and gaining his milestone.

Emotional? This was a flat out battle, I saw no emotion to it apart from a slight attempt with Infernape using it's blaze ability, besides that nothing but fight fight fight.

This really isn't as good as it gets, this is your own opinion, don't act as if you know the writers and they told you it was their best battle they've done.

I mean liking Style more than Substance is fine and all, but you should at least admit it.

Huh? Admit what?

I told you why I preferred One hit KO battles to lengthy battles, you just seem to refuse my opinions and only accept your own selfish thoughts.

I like a good battle, no style, no substance about them.
I know what I prefer, stop trying to act like you know what's right in a battle and what isn't.

Everybody has an opinion on the show.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
I can't believe I'm actually seconding Deathseer on something but....seconded.

In that case I would like a rebuttal to this:

Me said:
Was it Pikachu finally stepping up and beating one of Paul's Pokemon fair-and-square? Was it Buizel using Ice Aqua Jet to perfection? Was it Gliscor's triumphant return and defeat of Drapion? Was it Paul's genius use of Toxic Spikes? Was it the Flare Blitz-underground strategy to remove them? Was it Paul then "pulling an Ash" and improvising a strategy BASED on what Ash did earlier (when he used Electivire's thunder on the ground to throw up stones and attack Gliscor)? Was it the dynamic between the two characters, and the payoff to a buildup that was far more well-executed than what Ash/Gary delivered? Was it Paul using counter-shield to mess with Ash?

This idea that people only like Ash/Paul because of the ending is an absolute fallacy. The battle was clever from the start. And although Ash did get lucky with a couple of things - Flare Blitz and Fire Fang burns, most notably - I wouldn't say it was "contrived in Ash's favour" either. As Cybercubed said, there is no evidence that this team of Paul's was noticeably weaker than his league team. ALL of Paul's Pokemon are strong.


Yes I did, it very clearly states how and why I prefer them sort of battles, not specifically Tobias's.

Oh and have you ever considered it being an overall matter of opinion? No. Didn't think so.

It's great that everybody can have an opinion but you have to back your opinion up with solid argument and reasoning when it comes under attack. A 6-year-old might be expected to hide behind "it's my opinion, it can't be wrong!" but when you get a bit older you have to be prepared to fight for and defend your opinions.

You can't just say "it's all a matter of opinion" and have done with it; the reasoning behind your opinions and the opinions themselves are always, always up for scrutiny. Especially on the internet where they are presented in cold, hard text.

In any case - no, it does not at all "clearly explain that". In that post your only mentioned how you liked the Indigo League because of the one-hit ko battles and reiterated that long-winded battles can become boring.

That is not explaining your position. That is repeating your position.


Yes but you never asked that, you said you wanted to know why I prefer battles LIKE Tobias's, which in other words means you asked why I prefered One Hit KO battles which I did.

No you did not. At all. Once again, saying "one hit battles are cool and that's why I preferred Kanto, long-winded battles (when they're not even "long-winded" at all) are just boring sometimes" is not an explanation.


This is your own opinion.

Tobias's battle was way more effective in terms of emotional effect TO ME.

Absolutely irrelevant. This is an argument, a clash of two opinions. It being more effective TO YOU is accepted, to say so is unnecessary. What I am trying to do is show you why I believe you are dead wrong.

Are you new to this?

The music played throughout, Ash finally turning his hat around again and Pikachu's final fight against Latios, everything fit together perfect.

Ash turning his hat around again is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm talking about! It's just something to make the fans happy, while not really meaning anything. It's a stylistic choice.

"Let's make Ash turn his hat around again as a nod to the old episodes! That'll help disguise the fact we've brought in ANOTHER league-only rival and had Ash lose to him with no buildup!"

You liking Ash turning his hat around is the very definition of preferring style over substance! How can you not see that?

I'd also argue that the music in Ash/Tobias was just as good as it was in Ash/Paul - though it really depends if you only watched the dub. Ash/Tobias was one of the only times they kept the Japanese music for the entire episode and the episode was better for it. Ash/Paul, if you watch the original, had amazing music. The music played for Infernape activating blaze - Type:Wild - fit excellently. Ultimate Challenge was only an OK replacement.

Even then, though, I'd say that if you're lauding MUSIC as one of the greatest triumphs of Ash vs. Tobias, that's still a preference of style over substance.

Pikachu vs. Latios was great, I enjoyed it, but I don't see what makes it better than Infernape vs. Electivire. And you can hardly put it down to you preferring long battles, because I think Pikachu vs. Latios was actually longer - or it was around the same length anyway. Certainly there was no significant time difference between the two.

The whole atmosphere was tense, we wanted Ash to win, but watched as he stuggle hopelessly, but nearing the end put up his last ounce of fighting skills and turned it around for the better despite losing eventually.

Great. Can't argue with this. I actually LIKE Ash vs. Tobias, it's just not better than Ash vs. Paul in any way. I agree the atmosphere was fun.

No great build up? This battle signified how far Ash and Pikachu had come, hell this is what the DP Saga was about, reaching the league, we knew this fight was the last stand for Ash, Tobias was kicking all the way though the league, but there's no doubting that the build up towards this moment wasn't good, it was brilliant, every saga we patiently wait for Ash's final battle in the league, this was it.

No. Ash vs. PAUL signified how far Ash and Pikachu had come. Pikachu beat a legendary to round off AG as well. So Pikachu's progress is...tying with a legendary rather than beating one? What?

Ash vs. Paul was an indicator of Ash's progress far more than Ash vs. Tobias. Ash vs. Tobias was the writers saying "Ash is pretty good, but he can't win a tournament yet."

Meanwhile with Ash vs. Paul, they had Ash take Paul on in a full battle at the lake and lose horribly JUST so Ash could make a huge comeback and beat Paul at the league.

Make no mistake, the only reason they used that battle was to up the stakes for Ash's battle with Paul at the league. THAT is buildup. THAT is storytelling. There was no buildup for "Ash vs. faceless final league opponent".

No payoff? The only way there would have been a payoff is if Ash won, the only reason there was payoff against Paul was since we've know Paul since the start of DP and seen him thoughout getting development.

For there to be payoff there has to be buildup. Ash/Paul had a LOT of buildup. Then, since the battle was executed so well, that buildup was PAID OFF.

And yes. That is the reason. What difference does that make? That is what I'm talking about. Seeing Paul from the start of DP and watching him develop, watching him school Ash, watching him mistreat Chimchar, that is buildup. How is that a criticism? How are you using the fact that Paul was introduced first as a criticism?

What you are essentially saying is "the writers didn't introduce Tobias early enough". That is a CRITICISM, not an excuse. Had they introduced Tobias earlier in DP and gave him a couple of episodes, yes, there would have been more genuine buildup. As it is, Tobias is a Diabolous Ex Machina (look it up - it's different from Deus Ex Machina).

No counter/strategies? Pikachu vs Latios "Jump on his back, and thundershock it", yeah there was.

Full of squash matches, yeah but that's because it was a 6v6 in one episode, it had to be short, and that's the whole point, I prefer one hit KO battles.

Alright fine. That's one strategy and using Heracross' sleep talk is another. It still does not compare to the PLETHORA of strategies used by both Ash and Paul. I can give you a list if you want, but you should know.

Onto the second paragraph...so you actually enjoy this?
"Torkoal, use flamethrower!" "Dark Pulse." *Torkoal faints*

That is not interesting, that is not exciting, that is NOT a tenable position.

The only reason it lacked 'substance' is because Tobias was introduced with no backstory, besides that, this battle had substance and their is no reason to act like it had none and Paul's had everything.

Yes there is. There is plenty of reason to act like it had no substance. Like I said: no real buildup, certainly no payoff, no real characterization. Meanwhile you go crazy over things like "Ash turning his hat back" and "the music that played throughout". In other words, style over substance.

Yes this battle is more 'meaty and strong', that's because it lasted three episodes, and didn't squash battles, they were all to lengthy.

I meant meaty from a character perspective, from an emotional perspective. Ash vs. Paul was like the main course to Ash vs. Tobias' dessert. Only the dessert leaves something of a bitter aftertaste (because Ash lost to an Action Replay-abusing league-only rival AGAIN).

Yes it also had genuine characterisation, like i said before, Paul is Ash's rival, he already had a huge amount of development from early DP, for Ash the characterisation was for beating Paul and gaining his milestone.

Actually this battle characterized Ash a lot as well in other ways. There were subtle changes to Ash's battle style that mimicked Paul's, in the same way there were changes to Paul's battle style that mimicked Ash's: to show they were "opposite sides of the same coin" as Brock and Reggie pointed out. It was incredibly well done and by far the best dynamic between rivals in the Pokemon series, not that that is saying much.

Emotional? This was a flat out battle, I saw no emotion to it apart from a slight attempt with Infernape using it's blaze ability, besides that nothing but fight fight fight.

"Nothing but fight fight fight"? You didn't hear Brock's voiceover during the Infernape/Electivire punch-up, where he talked about how Ash and Paul had developed? You didn't hear Paul's murmurrings to himself when Pikachu exhibited strength well beyond what Paul could have expected? You didn't see Ash and Paul smiling and nodding at each other when Infernape and Electivire came to a stalemate? You didn't see the smirk on Paul's face when he used counter-shield on Ash just to mess with him?

And then you of course admit the emotion of Electivire and Paul taunting Infernape and Infernape activating Blaze. That was perfectly done.

This was an emotionally charged battle. And it wasn't even fight-fight-fight! The battle didn't even really start until halfway through the first episode and finished about halfway through the third.

This really isn't as good as it gets, this is your own opinion, don't act as if you know the writers and they told you it was their best battle they've done.

It NOT being as good as it gets is your opinion. You see how that works both ways? All I have done is state my opinion as fact which is a legitimate argumentative technique.

Even if the writers told me they thought it was the best battle they had ever done, different opinions would still be valid. Peter Jackson probably prefers Return of the King to The Two Towers or Fellowship, but it's OK to like either of the first two more.



Huh? Admit what?

I told you why I preferred One hit KO battles to lengthy battles, you just seem to refuse my opinions and only accept your own selfish thoughts.

I want you to admit that preferring Ash vs. Tobias to Ash vs. Paul is like preferring style over substance.

I've already said there is nothing particularly wrong with doing that, but you should at least call a spade a spade.

I like a good battle, no style, no substance about them.
I know what I prefer, stop trying to act like you know what's right in a battle and what isn't.

If you prefer "Ash turning his hat backwards" and "good music during the battle" then you prefer style over substance. That is the long and short of it.
 
Last edited:

Haunter ゴースト

Well-Known Member
Holy ----. I really want to say TL;DR, or TL; cba to reply, but i've read so many terrible statements in this that it's useless trying to get through to you.

Im going to reply to the things I truly think you are deluded by.

It's great that everybody can have an opinion but you have to back your opinion up with solid argument and reasoning when it comes under attack. A 6-year-old might be expected to hide behind "it's my opinion, it can't be wrong!" but when you get a bit older you have to be prepared to fight for and defend your opinions.

You can't just say "it's all a matter of opinion" and have done with it; the reasoning behind your opinions and the opinions themselves are always, always up for scrutiny. Especially on the internet where they are presented in cold, hard text.

In any case - no, it does not at all "clearly explain that". In that post your only mentioned how you liked the Indigo League because of the one-hit ko battles and reiterated that long-winded battles can become boring.

That is not explaining your position. That is repeating your position.

See this is not true.

You seem to ignore the majority of my explanition in the post, I didn't simply say Indigo League is best 1 Hit KO's are better, I said why I felt they were better and why I disliked Ash vs Paul, your either ignoring it or your mind is so full of your own thoughts.

I believe the latter.

No you did not. At all. Once again, saying "one hit battles are cool and that's why I preferred Kanto, long-winded battles (when they're not even "long-winded" at all) are just boring sometimes" is not an explanation.

Same as above, you ignored all of my explanitions.

Do you want a god damn example from it? Here:
"I just felt that, since Pauls team were changed around quite a bit, that the battle that all of the other Pokemon had together weren't as vital and shouldn't have been as long winded, since really they only signified how strong Ash had become to get the milestone of beating Paul.
If it was the same team they fought against back at Snowpoint, they would have had more reasoning to them.

That's what im trying to say, I don't feel it should have been as long as three episodes, when IMO we've had great 6v6 battles before with 'Infernape/Electivire' fights in them too which are a lot shorter.

That is an explanation to an opinion, something you very clearly don't seem to get.

Absolutely irrelevant. This is an argument, a clash of two opinions. It being more effective TO YOU is accepted, to say so is unnecessary. What I am trying to do is show you why I believe you are dead wrong.

Are you new to this?

Who do you think you are?

New to this? Generally overall, I've been around on SPPF a lot more than you by the look of your post counts.

And obviously by your ridiculous reasoning and argumentitive attitude you don't understand how forum conversations work.

Oh and yeah, nice name.

Ash turning his hat around again is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm talking about! It's just something to make the fans happy, while not really meaning anything. It's a stylistic choice.

"Let's make Ash turn his hat around again as a nod to the old episodes! That'll help disguise the fact we've brought in ANOTHER league-only rival and had Ash lose to him with no buildup!"

Okay, this is true.

But it doesn't deny how it made me enjoy the battle more, like i've send countless times before trying to get through to your skull is that it's my opinion on what made it more enjoyable.

You liking Ash turning his hat around is the very definition of preferring style over substance! How can you not see that?

This is partially correct it is style true, but it can create substance, it's a VERY memorable moment from previous series which was brought back for that ONE episode of the entire DP series, that captured a lot of memories/nostalgia and created what you like to call 'substance'.

I'd also argue that the music in Ash/Tobias was just as good as it was in Ash/Paul - though it really depends if you only watched the dub. Ash/Tobias was one of the only times they kept the Japanese music for the entire episode and the episode was better for it. Ash/Paul, if you watch the original, had amazing music. The music played for Infernape activating blaze - Type:Wild - fit excellently. Ultimate Challenge was only an OK replacement.

Even then, though, I'd say that if you're lauding MUSIC as one of the greatest triumphs of Ash vs. Tobias, that's still a preference of style over substance.

I tend to watch the dub, but I did happen to watch the Ash vs Paul japenese version too and I still prefered the Tobias battle music.

And once again, yes it is style, but it CAN be substance too, it's this what drags the viewer into the fight, for me it gave me that very powerful impact and emotion.

Pikachu vs. Latios was great, I enjoyed it, but I don't see what makes it better than Infernape vs. Electivire. And you can hardly put it down to you preferring long battles, because I think Pikachu vs. Latios was actually longer - or it was around the same length anyway. Certainly there was no significant time difference between the two.

I can hardly put it down? You haven't explained jack sh*t to why you prefer a lot of these things.

Can you not see how this conversation is merely you rejecting my opinions and only you claiming your own as legit answers?

There not. You keep telling me your OWN opinions but YOU aswell need to explain, hypocrite.

Why can you not see that? I thought a post this long would actually have a decent reasoning but your terrible at this, I can't believe how this convo has elevated.

Great. Can't argue with this. I actually LIKE Ash vs. Tobias, it's just not better than Ash vs. Paul in any way. I agree the atmosphere was fun.

Oh my god. I've bolded what's wrong with this.

YOUR GOD DAMN OPINION. STOP BEING A HYPOCRITE.

No. Ash vs. PAUL signified how far Ash and Pikachu had come. Pikachu beat a legendary to round off AG as well. So Pikachu's progress is...tying with a legendary rather than beating one? What?

Ash vs. Paul was an indicator of Ash's progress far more than Ash vs. Tobias. Ash vs. Tobias was the writers saying "Ash is pretty good, but he can't win a tournament yet."

Yes it did ASWELL, but so did Ash vs Tobias and there's no reason to think otherwise.

It signified for both, and for 'Ash is pretty good', yes it did say that and it does for every saga, your point being? Everything I said in the last still stands.

Meanwhile with Ash vs. Paul, they had Ash take Paul on in a full battle at the lake and lose horribly JUST so Ash could make a huge comeback and beat Paul at the league.

Make no mistake, the only reason they used that battle was to up the stakes for Ash's battle with Paul at the league. THAT is buildup. THAT is storytelling. There was no buildup for "Ash vs. faceless final league opponent".

Yes and I denyed none of this, I know that, it was development, so what are you saying?

That doesn't mean there isn't build up for other battles, for Tobias's character no there wasn't development, for the overall battle there was.

The whole point of each saga is for Ash to reach the league and get as far as he can is it not? In this case, the whole saga was build up however faint this may have been shown.

I personally wait the most for the League battle loss/win.

For there to be payoff there has to be buildup. Ash/Paul had a LOT of buildup. Then, since the battle was executed so well, that buildup was PAID OFF.

Again, I didn't deny, so why are you repeating~?

And yes. That is the reason. What difference does that make? That is what I'm talking about. Seeing Paul from the start of DP and watching him develop, watching him school Ash, watching him mistreat Chimchar, that is buildup. How is that a criticism? How are you using the fact that Paul was introduced first as a criticism?

What you are essentially saying is "the writers didn't introduce Tobias early enough". That is a CRITICISM, not an excuse. Had they introduced Tobias earlier in DP and gave him a couple of episodes, yes, there would have been more genuine buildup. As it is, Tobias is a Diabolous Ex Machina (look it up - it's different from Deus Ex Machina).

Huh? I really don't understand your mind at this point.

I said, Pauls battle had development since we met him at the start of DP and his development carried on throughout the saga, for Tobias's battle, we didn't meet him or learn of his character.

I didn't deny anything, I stated the facts.

Whatever your trying to say here is pure nonsense, your coming up with insane comments which arn't actually relevant.

Alright fine. That's one strategy and using Heracross' sleep talk is another. It still does not compare to the PLETHORA of strategies used by both Ash and Paul. I can give you a list if you want, but you should know.

Yes, remember the battle was dragged on? For 3 episodes? They had enough time to showcase plenty of stategies.

I never even said their wasn't any in the battle, you just brought it up.

Onto the second paragraph...so you actually enjoy this?
"Torkoal, use flamethrower!" "Dark Pulse." *Torkoal faints*

That is not interesting, that is not exciting, that is NOT a tenable position.

Not exactly, Torkoal barely got to fight, I like some action, which would last lets say a minute or two.

Or, imagine Ash vs Ritchie, lengths like that.

Yes there is. There is plenty of reason to act like it had no substance. Like I said: no real buildup, certainly no payoff, no real characterization. Meanwhile you go crazy over things like "Ash turning his hat back" and "the music that played throughout". In other words, style over substance.

No, this is just you IGNORING my other reasoning.

Going crazy? I merely mentioned it once to say why I enjoyed it.

This is my point, your mind is so deluded you exaggerate every part of my post, and even better this whole conversation has been exaggerated because your incapable of accepting other peoples opinions aside your own.

I meant meaty from a character perspective, from an emotional perspective. Ash vs. Paul was like the main course to Ash vs. Tobias' dessert. Only the dessert leaves something of a bitter aftertaste (because Ash lost to an Action Replay-abusing league-only rival AGAIN).

Yeah I roughly meant that too, meaty because Ash and Paul had loads of development to back up the battle.

That doesn't change my though's I still prefer Ash vs Tobias.

Actually this battle characterized Ash a lot as well in other ways. There were subtle changes to Ash's battle style that mimicked Paul's, in the same way there were changes to Paul's battle style that mimicked Ash's: to show they were "opposite sides of the same coin" as Brock and Reggie pointed out. It was incredibly well done and by far the best dynamic between rivals in the Pokemon series, not that that is saying much.

Highlighted important part.

This is your opinion, I preferred Ash vs Gary.

"Nothing but fight fight fight"? You didn't hear Brock's voiceover during the Infernape/Electivire punch-up, where he talked about how Ash and Paul had developed? You didn't hear Paul's murmurrings to himself when Pikachu exhibited strength well beyond what Paul could have expected? You didn't see Ash and Paul smiling and nodding at each other when Infernape and Electivire came to a stalemate? You didn't see the smirk on Paul's face when he used counter-shield on Ash just to mess with him?

Yes but what difference does it make, like I said, it made the battle show how much Ash had grown to finally defeat his DP rival.

And then you of course admit the emotion of Electivire and Paul taunting Infernape and Infernape activating Blaze. That was perfectly done.

I didn't admit anything, I said it slightly showed some style of emotion, or at least tried too, it didn't grab my attention too well, unlike Pikachu vs Latios.

This was an emotionally charged battle. And it wasn't even fight-fight-fight! The battle didn't even really start until halfway through the first episode and finished about halfway through the third.

Emotionally charged battle for some.

IMO all I witnessed was fighting which dragged on for too long, your responses are clearly your own thoughts you are such a hypocrite it's unreal.

It NOT being as good as it gets is your opinion. You see how that works both ways? All I have done is state my opinion as fact which is a legitimate argumentative technique.

OH MY, ALL YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION IS STATE YOUR OWN GOD DAMN OPINIONS, YOUR MIND, HOW THE HELL DOES IT WORK?

Even if the writers told me they thought it was the best battle they had ever done, different opinions would still be valid. Peter Jackson probably prefers Return of the King to The Two Towers or Fellowship, but it's OK to like either of the first two more.

WHICH IS EXACTLY MY POINT.

MY OPINION IS I PREFER ASH VS TOBIAS OVER ASH VS PAUL.

LET THAT SINK INTO YOUR BRAIN.

I want you to admit that preferring Ash vs. Tobias to Ash vs. Paul is like preferring style over substance.

No, because it consists of both.

And once again, it is my opinion, just because you don't see substance in the battle doesn't mean others don't.

I saw one incredibly effective and emotion filled battle which was still action packed.

I've already said there is nothing particularly wrong with doing that, but you should at least call a spade a spade.

I've reasoned, if you can't read posts properly or are literally crazy, that's your problem.

If you can't seem to accept my opinions, thoughts and reasons, that's your problem buddy.

If you prefer "Ash turning his hat backwards" and "good music during the battle" then you prefer style over substance. That is the long and short of it.

Why do you constantly bring back the hat turning backwards? I mentioned it once and didn't even say it was brilliant, I just said it did make the battle more fun.

And NO once again, it doesn't mean I prefer style over substance hell i'd never even heard this saying before you arrived on this site.

I know which battles I do and do like whether they have either of them ridiculous things you say, you can't decide, or change my opinion so I don't know who you think you are.

And once again for the final god damn time, it's your opinion, the music and whole atmosphere of the battle made great substance to me.

I hate to say it, but this is the most pointless and stupidest conversation i've ever had, your reasoning and replies are pathetic, half the time you were being a hypocrite, and the rest consisted of you ignoring my reasoning, exaggerating everything and pushing out every opinion aside your own.

I actually can't believe some of the things you said, im still trying to get over them now they were terrible and horrible to reply too.

I end with this statement once again.

Everybody has a god damn opinion, you can't act like your's is the only valid reason around. It's not, you don't know other peoples thoughts.

Obviously you prefer Paul's battle for reasons even you didn't explain properly but made sure that I did.

I prefer Tobia's battle.

LEARN WHAT OPINIONS ARE. /END.
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
Meh, it was never a great battle for me. It would have been, had Paul been properly punished for his atrocious behaviour, instead of it being handwaved as "a different training method". And yes, I would have liked to see a more balanced fight, instead of just Infernape and Drapion dominating everyone.

Oh, and the fact that Paul didn't use Torterra was just rubbing salt into the wound. As if saying that Paul wasn't at his very best, and that that's the only reason why Ash could win. Yes, I think the fight was "rigged", so to speak, but in Paul's favor.

Ash vs Gary and Ash vs Drake are still leagues beyond Ash vs Paul
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
See this is not true.

You seem to ignore the majority of my explanition in the post, I didn't simply say Indigo League is best 1 Hit KO's are better, I said why I felt they were better and why I disliked Ash vs Paul, your either ignoring it or your mind is so full of your own thoughts.

I believe the latter.

Let's back up a bit.

I said "I don't understand preferring Ash/Tobias over Ash/Paul."
You said: Go back 1 page and you'll see that I responded why I prefer 1 hit KO battles like Tobias's.

So I read the post you made regarding why you preferred 1 hit KO battles. It explained NOTHING to me. Like I said before, you directly addressed why you preferred one-hit KO battles in ONE paragraph, and even that wasn't an explanation! It was just you saying you preferred Kanto and that long-winded battles were boring.

That post of yours on page 1, the one you directed me to, DID explain a lot of things, but your reasoning for preferring OHKO battles was not one of them.

Same as above, you ignored all of my explanitions.

Do you want a god damn example from it? Here:

That is an explanation to an opinion, something you very clearly don't seem to get.

But it doesn't explain the one thing you said it DID explain. You said it explained why you preferred OHKO battles and it comprehensively does not. The other things you bring up - Paul's team being changed, stuffl like that - is ultimately irrelevant.

This all came about because you said Go back 1 page and you'll see that I responded why I prefer 1 hit KO battles like Tobias's., I looked and I did not see an explanation. You explained your opinion regarding Ash/Paul SPECIFICALLY but you NEVER addressed why you actually prefer battles to end in one hit. And you said you did. So I called you out on it.


Who do you think you are?

New to this? Generally overall, I've been around on SPPF a lot more than you by the look of your post counts.

And obviously by your ridiculous reasoning and argumentitive attitude you don't understand how forum conversations work.

"This" = arguing. Your constant hiding behind the word "opinion" and your need to constantly bring up the fact that what you are stating is opinion is unnecessary.

Like I said, this is an argument. It is a clash of two opinions. When you state something, what you are saying is opinion unless proven otherwise. So you don't need to constantly bring up how what you are saying is your own opinion, because I already know that.

For an example of what I mean, look no further than:

But it doesn't deny how it made me enjoy the battle more, like i've send countless times before trying to get through to your skull is that it's my opinion on what made it more enjoyable.

This is not me dictating to you what you should and should not like.

Do you see what I mean? I am not trying to make you think like me. I am trying to find what makes you have such an opinion - an opinion that is very strange to me. You are doing the same, but in reverse. THAT is the basis of an argument. I am arguing that my opinion makes more sense, and you are doing the same. That is the basis of any argument ever, and it is the fact that you do not seem to get this is what makes me ask if you are "new to this".


This is partially correct it is style true, but it can create substance, it's a VERY memorable moment from previous series which was brought back for that ONE episode of the entire DP series, that captured a lot of memories/nostalgia and created what you like to call 'substance'.

Nope. Like I said, it's something refreshing, exciting, unusual, but ultimately meaningless. It's like adding red food colouring to your cake to make it look cooler. It had little to no impact on the episode or the battle itself, and was just a fun, ENTIRELY AESTHETIC choice by the writers. It's the very definition of "style" over substance.

I tend to watch the dub, but I did happen to watch the Ash vs Paul japenese version too and I still prefered the Tobias battle music.

Fair enough; I thought Ash/Paul in the original was wonderfully well-timed, with the finale of the song being timed with Buizel's winning Ice Punch over Gastrodon being a highlight, though the general timing of Type:Wild and the way it became almost serene when Infernape/Electivire were duelling Flare Blitz and Thunderpunch was great too. But yeah you could easily say similar for some moments in Ash/Tobias.

And once again, yes it is style, but it CAN be substance too, it's this what drags the viewer into the fight, for me it gave me that very powerful impact and emotion.

Like I said though, it's food colouring. It improves the overall package, but the overall package still has to TASTE good. The TASTE is the substance, the appearance is the style. Do you see what I mean?

So music, when timed well and used well, can improve the show. But on its own it is nothing.

Don't get me wrong; I believe Ash vs. Paul had plenty of style too. But it never compromised the actual substance of the battle.


I can hardly put it down? You haven't explained jack sh*t to why you prefer a lot of these things.

Do you not even understand what I said there?

Previously you said you preferred one-hit-ko, short battles to longer affairs like Ash vs. Paul. Right? But I don't understand how you can then claim to like the Pikachu/Latios battle which was long and drawn-out, certainly the longest individual battle of the match.

Can you not see how this conversation is merely you rejecting my opinions and only you claiming your own as legit answers?

There not. You keep telling me your OWN opinions but YOU aswell need to explain, hypocrite.

Why can you not see that? I thought a post this long would actually have a decent reasoning but your terrible at this, I can't believe how this convo has elevated.

I was never asked to explain or to go into further detail. I never SAID I would explain or to go into further detail.

You said "look at that post I made for an explanation". I looked. There was no explanation. I asked you for an explanation and you provided one. If you wish for me to expand on or explain any point I have made, I will do so. I believe I have explained my stance, throughout the course of this topic, but if you are unhappy with an explanation, please do tell and I'll go into further detail.

I only click "submit reply" if I am happy with the explanations for my points. If you are distinctly unhappy with that explanation TELL ME, and I will happily expand on it.


Oh my god. I've bolded what's wrong with this.

YOUR GOD DAMN OPINION. STOP BEING A HYPOCRITE.

As I said before, stating your opinion as fact is a legit argumentative technique. It sounds more forceful and more convincing. Why should I have to add "IMO" onto every post I make? Like I said, it's an argument. Everything I post is ASSUMED to be opinion, unless I say otherwise.


Yes it did ASWELL, but so did Ash vs Tobias and there's no reason to think otherwise.

It signified for both, and for 'Ash is pretty good', yes it did say that and it does for every saga, your point being? Everything I said in the last still stands.

Ash vs. Tobias did very little to show how far Ash and Pikachu had come. There was shown to be a decent gap between Ash and Paul, especially at the lake, so Ash overcoming Paul to ultimately win was a huge deal. Ash vs. Tobias was like "ok, we have to make Ash lose here, but we'll do it in a way that makes him look fairly strong and we'll throw in rarely-seen legendaries to keep the kids happy".

Yes and I denyed none of this, I know that, it was development, so what are you saying?

That doesn't mean there isn't build up for other battles, for Tobias's character no there wasn't development, for the overall battle there was.

The whole point of each saga is for Ash to reach the league and get as far as he can is it not? In this case, the whole saga was build up however faint this may have been shown.

I personally wait the most for the League battle loss/win.

There was buildup for other battles, yes. There was even some buildup for Tobias' - but VERY little, and practically none. If you are arguing that "Ash is eventually going to lose" is buildup, then wow.

Again, I didn't deny, so why are you repeating~?

Because you questioned why I thought there was "no payoff" for Ash vs. Tobias, and I showed that since there was virtually no buildup, there could be no really satisfying payoff.


What you are essentially saying is "the writers didn't introduce Tobias early enough". That is a CRITICISM, not an excuse. Had they introduced Tobias earlier in DP and gave him a couple of episodes, yes, there would have been more genuine buildup. As it is, Tobias is a Diabolous Ex Machina (look it up - it's different from Deus Ex Machina).

Huh? I really don't understand your mind at this point.

I said, Pauls battle had development since we met him at the start of DP and his development carried on throughout the saga, for Tobias's battle, we didn't meet him or learn of his character.

I didn't deny anything, I stated the facts.

Exactly. You were saying we've known Paul from the start and we never met Tobias pre-league. But you acted as if this was somehow an excuse - as if it wasn't the writers fault we never met Tobias before the league, as if that didn't affect the buildup of the Ash/Tobias battle at all.

Ash/Tobias would have better buildup if Tobias had been introduced beforehand, right? But the writers didn't plan that far ahead. With Ash/Paul, they did, so it had better buildup almost by default.

You're acting as if I shouldn't factor in Paul being introduced early, when introducing Paul early is just good storytelling and introducing Tobias late is bad storytelling.

Whatever your trying to say here is pure nonsense, your coming up with insane comments which arn't actually relevant.

Did you look up "diabolus ex machina"? Here, I'll help you.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolusExMachina

You know what Deus Ex Machina is, right? When the writers come up with a completely illogical, nonsensical plot twist that saves the heroes? Diabolus Ex Machina is the opposite, when the writers come up with something out of the blue that puts the heroes in trouble. Tobias is pretty much the definition of that.

Yes, remember the battle was dragged on? For 3 episodes? They had enough time to showcase plenty of stategies.

I never even said their wasn't any in the battle, you just brought it up.

No you didn't, but you implied that because you could name one or two that somehow made it all OK. I pointed out that no, it still isn't OK because Ash vs. Paul still had more strategies.

And yes, being 3 episodes long means you can use more strategies. And in any case, just take a small sample: episode 2 of Ash vs. Paul had Buizel using its ring to escape Drapion's clutches, Drapion using Toxic Spikes, Infernape getting rid of the toxic spikes, Froslass using Hail/Snow Cloak and Gliscor using that "use Giga Impact and run away" strategy. That's 5 and I feel like I'm missing a couple.

So even if you just take one episode of the three, Ash/Paul had more strategy involved in it.

Not exactly, Torkoal barely got to fight, I like some action, which would last lets say a minute or two.

Or, imagine Ash vs Ritchie, lengths like that.

Right.

No, this is just you IGNORING my other reasoning.

Going crazy? I merely mentioned it once to say why I enjoyed it.

This is my point, your mind is so deluded you exaggerate every part of my post, and even better this whole conversation has been exaggerated because your incapable of accepting other peoples opinions aside your own.

When you bring up something as ultimately irrelevant as "ASH FLIPPED HIS HAT OMG" I will bring it up. It does serious damage to your own point, since Ash flipping his hat is practically the definition of style over substance.

Yeah I roughly meant that too, meaty because Ash and Paul had loads of development to back up the battle.

That doesn't change my though's I still prefer Ash vs Tobias.

So to be clear you have now admitted that Ash/Paul had better character development, better characterization, better buildup and better payoff, yet Ash/Tobias is still better?


Highlighted important part.

This is your opinion, I preferred Ash vs Gary.

Me stating opinion as fact once again which is 100% ok.


Yes but what difference does it make, like I said, it made the battle show how much Ash had grown to finally defeat his DP rival.

You argued that there was no emotional impact and I showed you a list of things that oozed emotional impact. That makes a lot of difference. Everything in the battle was just done in a more subtle way than I have come to expect from Pokemon.

I didn't admit anything, I said it slightly showed some style of emotion, or at least tried too, it didn't grab my attention too well, unlike Pikachu vs Latios.

What attention it grabbed from you is irrelevant - the point if the emotion of the battle, which you admit is there. You can admit things, you know, it doesn't kill your point.

IMO all I witnessed was fighting which dragged on for too long, your responses are clearly your own thoughts you are such a hypocrite it's unreal.

Yes, they are clearly all my own thoughts. That is the point of an argument - me expressing my opinion and arguing the merits of that opinion. What is hypocritical about that? I have merely argued my case.


OH MY, ALL YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION IS STATE YOUR OWN GOD DAMN OPINIONS, YOUR MIND, HOW THE HELL DOES IT WORK?

Yes, that's exactly what I've been doing...? Like I said. Stating your opinion as fact is a legit argumentative technique. It sounds more forceful and more assured. Why should I have to tack an "IMO" on the end of every statement?


WHICH IS EXACTLY MY POINT.

MY OPINION IS I PREFER ASH VS TOBIAS OVER ASH VS PAUL.

LET THAT SINK INTO YOUR BRAIN.

I disagree with your opinion completely and will argue otherwise until you get bored/admit defeat. That's the entire point. I don't see why you are so upset about this.


No, because it consists of both.

And once again, it is my opinion, just because you don't see substance in the battle doesn't mean others don't.

I saw one incredibly effective and emotion filled battle which was still action packed.

It's style over substance, not style instead of substance. A battle should be mostly substance, but with a little bit of style added on to make the whole thing better in terms of overall presentation. If a battle has more style than substance, for me, something has gone wrong.

But some people prefer style over substance, they prefer seeing things like Ash turning his hat back and legendaries being used in the league and stuff. I like it too, it's novel. But it's not substantial. So yes, Ash/Tobias had substance, but not enough. And the lack of substance was disguised by OMG IT'S DARKRAI AND LATIOS, HOLY CRAP.


I've reasoned, if you can't read posts properly or are literally crazy, that's your problem.

If you can't seem to accept my opinions, thoughts and reasons, that's your problem buddy.

I don't get your reluctance here.

Like, is it just because you would rather be illogical than admit I am correct? I don't get it. I already said there's nothing wrong with preferring style to substance...I just don't see why you won't admit it at this point =/


Why do you constantly bring back the hat turning backwards? I mentioned it once and didn't even say it was brilliant, I just said it did make the battle more fun.

It was enough of a big deal for you to remember it and bring it up, so it's quite clear it meant a lot.

And NO once again, it doesn't mean I prefer style over substance hell i'd never even heard this saying before you arrived on this site.

...you'd never heard that saying before.

wow.

I know which battles I do and do like whether they have either of them ridiculous things you say, you can't decide, or change my opinion so I don't know who you think you are.

And once again for the final god damn time, it's your opinion, the music and whole atmosphere of the battle made great substance to me.


Please read my previous statements on this matter.

I hate to say it, but this is the most pointless and stupidest conversation i've ever had, your reasoning and replies are pathetic, half the time you were being a hypocrite, and the rest consisted of you ignoring my reasoning, exaggerating everything and pushing out every opinion aside your own.

Please explain precisely how I was ever hypocritical.

I also do not appreciate the overly personal tone you have now taken. I think it's completely unnecessary to say my replies have been "pathetic".

I actually can't believe some of the things you said, im still trying to get over them now they were terrible and horrible to reply too.

I end with this statement once again.

Everybody has a god damn opinion, you can't act like your's is the only valid reason around. It's not, you don't know other peoples thoughts.

I will always stand by and argue in favour of my opinion. I am not rejecting your reality and substituting my own, but I am making sure my reality is heard loud and clear. It's not a case of me believing my opinion is fact, that you are wrong. I state my opinion as fact because I shouldn't have to constantly tell you that this is all "IMO".

Obviously you prefer Paul's battle for reasons even you didn't explain properly but made sure that I did.

I prefer Tobia's battle.

LEARN WHAT OPINIONS ARE. /END.

I did explain why I liked Paul's battle more. Please go back and reread my comments earlier in this thread.

Mostly I said the 3-episode system gave every Pokemon a chance to shine and that it had far better buildup and payoff than any previous battle in the series. I believe that is explanation enough and I believe I have already made that abundantly clear here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top