Ash vs. Paul - One Year On

[TheNewGuy]

Yikes such a long post >_>

 

[Haunter ゴースト]

TL; cba to reply. Just because I don't reply to it means im wrong by the way. My thoughts still stand and you pretty much made a fool of yourself in that post.

I read it, but that post proved to me how you don't know a thing about forum arguments/conversations.

You did come with a few minor things which were right, but even then I have no reason to reply to them all because they weren't relevant, they were only you explaining things which wouldn't even exist if you didn't expand this conversation so massively, and before you say I expanded it too, only because you gave me enough rididiculous things which needed to be replied to, they couldn't be left unspoken for, you need to know what's understandable and what isn't in a conversation.

You obviously need to learn about what defines defending and arguing.

The whole point of the conversation was to say why I prefer One hit KO battles, but you actually asked me why I prefer Tobias's battle compared to Pauls, I said why I didn't like Paul's battle and then you completely exploded the conversation to try and say why im wrong.

You act so negatively to opinions, almost as if you don't know what they are.
I know you do, and you somehow say you deny them because you are defending your own opinion, but it wasn't an argument in the first place and you still refused them.

Then you went over to introducing style and substance, to cut it short, both battles have both and that's fact.
One may have more than the other, but just because of that it doesn't define the battle.

I still think you are completely deluded since you really don't seem to understand the point of the conversation and exaggerated it massively.

One last time, I prefer shorter battles like Ash vs Tobias, to me it was more fun, enjoyable and had a better impact.
Ash vs Paul dragged on too long for me which ultimately made me dislike it, you obviously prefer it, I accepted your opinion I don't understand what made you refuse mine so much.

Not everything needs backing up with reasons and evidence, you either enjoy something or don't.

It's like saying I like Pirates of the Carribean but hate One piece (which I don't hate), their both about Pirates so what can make my opinion any different? Which is exactly how I enjoy certain battles more than others. It's like comparing Ash vs Ritchie to Ash vs Tobias, both short battles, but I liked Ash vs Tobias more.

Understand now? Think about it.

Remember, tip of advice: Everybody has an opinion, not just you, and yes they do matter in an 'argument'.

P.S - For somebody who ask's if im new to this, your quite frankly terrible.

P.P.S - Oh I suppose you realise your not supposed to post twice in a row, newbie.

 

[ZgonDuck]

It was still pretty good, but the exclusion of Torterra and Magmortar, and to a lesser extent Honchkrow, still leaves kind of an odd taste in my mouth. Of course we can assume Gastrodon and Froslass were strong since they were Paul's, but the fact that we're just seeing them for the battle made me think they didn't want Magmortar to take a fall.

And Torterra is Paul's strongest, or second possibly, so it's exclusion just left loads of potential on the floor. It was good battle no doubt, but without the three, it wasn't as good as it could have been.

 

[Snorunt conservationist]

Although he did beat Drapion (which really raped his team) without Infernape, although the monkey did get rid of Toxic Spikes.

Infernape raped half his team. Gliscor did a bit too, but it was Infernape's win.

Infernape isn't broken. For one thing it does not have a win over a legendary on its resume

Never fought one properly has it? (genuine question). Irrelevant if so (and irrelevant anyway).

For another it nearly lost to Paul at the league

Nearly isn't losing.

and did in fact lose to Maylene, Byron (with type advantages both times) and Paul's Electabuzz.

Maylene was very early on in his time in the team, the Paul battle was to highlight Ash's inadequacies.

For another, Infernape and Ash proved SEVERAL times it could win matches without blaze. It beat seven gym leader Pokemon and three of Paul's (Ursaring the second time, Ninjask and Aggron) without it, needing it only to beat Paul's Ursaring (the first time), Volkner's Luxray and Paul's Electivire

In short, what you mean here is that he used blaze only in big battles. Which made the whole idea of him not needing blaze to win defunct. The most important battles Infernape needed blaze to win, it's that simple.

It was beautiful, poetic irony

Pseud.

Paul thought Chimchar was worthless without Blaze and released it. Ash showed that not only could Chimchar/Infernape be great without Blaze, it was also capable of mastering it - something Paul thought neither Ash nor Chimchar/Infernape would ever be capable of.

Yay for over-promotion of one pokemon above all the rest (and before anyone points out that this has been done every sage, nowhere near as much as it was with Infernape).

 

[ChaosMage]

If there's any doubt about the coolness of this match, check out this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWXmqVelJTg


Yep, that's what it's all about.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Alright, sorry, been busy.

Two posts to respond to so I'll take two posts to do it, methinks.

Never fought one properly has it? (genuine question). Irrelevant if so (and irrelevant anyway).

No it hasn't, but when you consider Sceptile has one - admittedly Darkrai had been weakened by Gible's Rock Smash (damage done by Heracross' Megahorn was presumably healed back with Dream Eater) - as well as Charizard and Pikachu, it seems like it is the one thing missing from Infernape's resumé. It has not yet been shown to have power to that degree. I certainly don't think Pikachu of all Pokemon is broken, and Sceptile sure as hell isn't. Charizard...probably is, but it's Charizard.

Nearly isn't losing.

No, but a "broken" Pokemon would not be on the absolute verge of losing like Infernape was. The referee was literally about to call the match until Electivire yelled. That's a little different to "man, Pikachu can only take one more hit!" When the only reason you win is because your opponent stops the ref, you're not broken (funnily enough I guess this also applies to the 'Zard).

Maylene was very early on in his time in the team, the Paul battle was to highlight Ash's inadequacies.

Maylene was still a decisive loss over a pokemon it had type advantage over.

And so what if it was? Chimchar lost fair and square. It beat a tired Ursaring, put up a decent fight against Electabuzz but ultimately lost. The writers' motives behind the battle do not matter. If the writers wanted to make Chimchar broken they would have had it tie with Electabuzz, for example, or beat it before going down to Magmortar's Rock Tomb or something.

In short, what you mean here is that he used blaze only in big battles. Which made the whole idea of him not needing blaze to win defunct. The most important battles Infernape needed blaze to win, it's that simple.

Yep. It's a great ace in the hole to have. I don't see what makes it such a bad thing that Ash uses his Pokemon's ability to help him in big battles, but whatever.

Also it has been decisively shown that Infernape can win without blaze. If you only want to count whatever battle suits your point then fine.

Yay for over-promotion of one pokemon above all the rest (and before anyone points out that this has been done every stage, nowhere near as much as it was with Infernape).

I don't get how this is a response to what you quoted but whatever:

Infernape got "overpromoted" because it had by far the most interesting and relevant story. Every Pokemon Ash captures, except the regional bird, has a cool little story to go with it - Squirtle has the Squirtle Squad, Torkoal was having problems with the Steelix in that valley, nice little things like that. But mostly they can be limited to one episode.

With Chimchar/Infernape, you had a Pokemon that was very relevant to the overarching story of DPP, Ash's rivalry with Paul. As a result it was promoted quite a bit.

Honestly I think they made a couple of decisions where they went too far - for instance, I wouldn't have had Infernape star at Volkner's gym, that should have been Torterra's time to shine.

I think overall, though, "overpromoting" Infernape was the right decision. He was the most interesting Pokemon, the most relevant Pokemon. Everything else was so much fluff in comparison.

TL; cba to reply. Just because I don't reply to it means im wrong by the way. My thoughts still stand and you pretty much made a fool of yourself in that post.

This is an argument of opinions, you can't be wrong. Well, unless you say things that are factually incorrect.

And this post sure looked like a reply to me.

I read it, but that post proved to me how you don't know a thing about forum arguments/conversations.

I think that is a totally unnecessary and cruel thing to say, not to mention wrong. How is me putting forward my point with evidence and logic "not knowing a thing about forum arguments"? Silly.

You did come with a few minor things which were right, but even then I have no reason to reply to them all because they weren't relevant
they were only you explaining things which wouldn't even exist if you didn't expand this conversation so massively, and before you say I expanded it too, only because you gave me enough rididiculous things which needed to be replied to, they couldn't be left unspoken for, you need to know what's understandable and what isn't in a conversation.

I decided they were relevant. If they were truly irrelevant to the argument at hand I would expect you to dismiss them. Clearly you have absolutely no problem with responding to my "irrelevant" points, since you did it before, so I don't know why you're bringing it up now.

You're such a hero, taking time out to respond to my evil points that COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE LEFT UNANSWERED!! Come on now. For one thing I would like to know specifically what I said that was ridiculous. I want a list. Quote my "ridiculous" statements. I dare you to try, because I have said nothing "ridiculous" here.

Also, what's this stuff about "what's understandable and what isn't"? What, are you struggling to read my posts or something? I don't get it (kind of ironic that YOU posted something that isn't understandable >_>).

You obviously need to learn about what defines defending and arguing.

I need to learn? What do I need to learn? What have I done in this argument that indicates this? Please be less vague and tell me specifically what your problem is, because this is just fluff.

Is your problem that I state opinion as fact? Come on.

The whole point of the conversation was to say why I prefer One hit KO battles, but you actually asked me why I prefer Tobias's battle compared to Pauls, I said why I didn't like Paul's battle and then you completely exploded the conversation to try and say why im wrong.

I "exploded the conversation" because I went through point-by-point what I disagreed with, what I thought was wrong with what you said. There was a lot of it. I had several points to counter yours. You want to persecute me for having more valid arguments than you?

You act so negatively to opinions, almost as if you don't know what they are.
I know you do, and you somehow say you deny them because you are defending your own opinion, but it wasn't an argument in the first place and you still refused them.

I never "refused" your opinions, but I will argue and debate them if I disagree with them as vehemently as I do.

Then you went over to introducing style and substance, to cut it short, both battles have both and that's fact.
One may have more than the other, but just because of that it doesn't define the battle.

One having more than the other is exactly my point. At no point did I say Tobias' battle had no substance, but it certainly had a hell of a lot less than Ash vs. Paul (which is also fact).

I maintain that the entire battle with Tobias was the writers putting in cool, fun things to disguise the fact that Ash was losing in a squash match to another characterless league-only rival. Aesthetic things like Ash turning his hat and omg legendaries. That does "define" that battle for me. It was a great watch that left a bitter taste in my mouth - like I said, a nice dessert with a bad aftertaste.

I still think you are completely deluded since you really don't seem to understand the point of the conversation and exaggerated it massively.

I understand that you disagree with me, and I'm arguing why I believe my opinion is "correct". Don't see the problem here.

One last time, I prefer shorter battles like Ash vs Tobias, to me it was more fun, enjoyable and had a better impact.
Ash vs Paul dragged on too long for me which ultimately made me dislike it, you obviously prefer it, I accepted your opinion I don't understand what made you refuse mine so much.

I do "accept" your opinion. But I can still argue with it and explain why I totally disagree. That's the POINT. Good god.

Not everything needs backing up with reasons and evidence, you either enjoy something or don't.

It's like saying I like Pirates of the Carribean but hate One piece (which I don't hate), their both about Pirates so what can make my opinion any different? Which is exactly how I enjoy certain battles more than others. It's like comparing Ash vs Ritchie to Ash vs Tobias, both short battles, but I liked Ash vs Tobias more.

No, it doesn't "need" that. But if I back up MY opinions and explain what I think made Ash/Paul great, and explain why I didn't like Ash/Tobias so much, you just closing your ears and shouting "MY OPINION CAN'T BE WRONG LOL" does nothing.

Remember, tip of advice: Everybody has an opinion, not just you, and yes they do matter in an 'argument'.

P.S - For somebody who ask's if im new to this, your quite frankly terrible.

P.P.S - Oh I suppose you realise your not supposed to post twice in a row, newbie.

Have you been reading my posts? I've said several times that opinions matter. But opinions can still be argued against and debated. Again, that is the point.

And wow, you are getting really hung up on that "new to this" thing. Let it go, jeez. I didn't think asking if you were new to arguing would make you get all elitist and "I've been here longer than you and will use that to put you down". Kind of a lame, low, unnecessary move.

 

[RWB]

The only thing that annoyed me was Infernape getting three KO's while Torterra gets to be the fall guy again.

Really? They could have Torterra finish Aggron, or heck, just beat Ninjask. But no.

 

[~-Overheat-~]

It was one of the best. But it had the potential to be so much better! Especially if Paul used his old pokemon, that we had seen develop for four years.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I wouldn't have enjoyed a straight rematch as much. We saw a full battle involving Honchkrow, Magmortar et al at the lake. Would seeing them again be as fun? Not for me.

Paul's Torterra could have replaced Drapion, I think. That's a decision I can get on board with, though then maybe it would have been stupid to have Torterra without Ash bringing out Infernape to combat it, so then the entire battle has to be completely rejigged.

 

[d4rk_tailed]

Im not all on the Gliscor thing.....still.

I wanted Gliscor to win against Ninjask, whilst Ninjask was still perfectly strong and healthy, not a Drapion that had forced its way through Ashs team. I didnt think Gliscor, following the battle against Pauls Torterra or Byrons Bastiodon showed any real improvement.

EDIT: Plus, still wish Infernape had done Pauls Electivire over on a decent basis.

 

[Trakyan]

it sucked if you ask me, too many pauses with comentaries from reggie and all, i mean while they were busy talking i can just imagine the pokemon sitting down with a cup of tea, the strategies sucked to be honest and this is defiantely not the best, the best was in the battle palace or whatever it was where the battlefeild was a whole jungle, that was what made me stop hating sceptile after he evolved. nothing compares to that battle, the battlefeild was the best and the pokemon were great that he used, i only wish he used someone else that wasnt swellow, im glad he used heracross and sceptile though, maybe used bulbasaur and it would have been perfect or bayleaf since bulbasaur is tiny when you compare him to the trio that bald guy used. but an overal good battle, not what ash and paul had, paul should have stuck to torterra, electevire, honchrow, usraring and who else was it? but he should have kept the ones he used before and why does electevire get glory? terterra was the starter!

 

[TheNewGuy]

the strategies sucked to be honest

Did you prefer "aim for the horn"?

 

[Platinum fan.]

Still my fave battle only because I'm such a Paul fan. But bias aside I do think this battle and rivalry for that matter was overhyped after the Team Galactic showdown, like nothing else mattered but this one fight. Kinda made everything else including over league battles look pointless. My opinion on this fight is unchanged but they could have hyped up other things during the tail end of DP.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I see Haunter227 has failed to respond. Maybe this time he genuinely meant "cba to reply" after saying it three times; trying to play it cool with an "uncaring" attitude without backing it up just looks lame, so I'm glad he's actually followed through this time.

Still slightly annoyed that he attacks my opinions so relentlessly - while hypocritically playing the White Knight - but I'll get over it.

Still my fave battle only because I'm such a Paul fan. But bias aside I do think this battle and rivalry for that matter was overhyped after the Team Galactic showdown, like nothing else mattered but this one fight. Kinda made everything else including over league battles look pointless. My opinion on this fight is unchanged but they could have hyped up other things during the tail end of DP.

I agree with this to some extent, though there was a lot of other subplots going on in that timeframe - Togekiss, Gible, Dawn getting into the Grand Festival, Volkner, Flint, stuff like that.

 

[girazard]

What I disliked about the battle is that it didn't seem to show how much Ash had improved through Sinnoh:

1. He was unable to execute Torterra properly (even though he had shown that he was capable of doing so) and as such Torterra lost basically the same way as he did at Acuity.

2. When Pikachu battled Electivire, Ash fell into the same trap of using Iron Tail against Electivire's fists. That made it seem to me that he hadn't learnt from his past experiences.

Also, I would have preferred Infernape to battle Magmortar in the end (but that's just personal preference) and for Brock not to explain EVERY SINGLE THING that happens. It was still a good battle though.

 

[Grey Wind]

I see Haunter227 has failed to respond. Maybe this time he genuinely meant "cba to reply" after saying it three times; trying to play it cool with an "uncaring" attitude without backing it up just looks lame, so I'm glad he's actually followed through this time.

Still slightly annoyed that he attacks my opinions so relentlessly - while hypocritically playing the White Knight - but I'll get over it.

Dear god, let it go. He has an opinion, get over it. Just because his opinion is different to yours doesn't mean you need to argue it so vehemently. It makes you look foolish. Your opinion is not anymore right than his.

And how in god's name is he attacking your opinion? You're the one who wouldn't stop trying to argue an opinion, and tell him that his is wrong.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Dear god, let it go. He has an opinion, get over it. Just because his opinion is different to yours doesn't mean you need to argue it so vehemently. It makes you look foolish. Your opinion is not anymore right than his.

And how in god's name is he attacking your opinion? You're the one who wouldn't stop trying to argue an opinion, and tell him that his is wrong.

He attacked me and made it incredibly personal.

He wanted me to stop arguing my opinion, he wanted to limit and opress the expression of my point. That's an attack on my opinion, an attack on my right to express my opinion, and it is certainly not on. It's hypocritical, too, given some of the things he has said.

All I ever did was argue my point of view - he is the one that started saying "EVERYBODY HAS AN OPINION!" I have since tried to explain to him that this is an argument of differing opinions, and that my opinion and his opinion are valid, but all he has done is bold "everyone has different opinions on this show" - which I knew already! It's almost as if he doesn't get that me arguing is just an expression of the opinion he values so much.

I argue with the reasoning behind his opinion because that is what drives the opinion itself. Opinions are based on interpretations of fact; it's sad that he has not realized that.

 

[Haunter ゴースト]

1: Read through the conversation between us again. Sorry to say pal but your completely deluded, I did not attack you, I said I liked another battle, you then retaliated almost as if I had commited a crime.

2: It was never an argument in the first place, it's a thread in which people state their opinions, if you want an argument make a thread entitled "Which is better Ash vs Paul or Tobias?", maybe then it'll be acceptable.

3: Why me? Other people said Ash vs Paul was boring too and preferred other battles, but you only seem to hate my opinion.

 

[Mew2]

I personally thought that the League battle between Ash and Paul was okay, not great, but okay. The problem, for me, was that this battle had the potential of being the greatest battle in the entire animé, but they fell flat on their faces in the execution. First off, we never really saw Ash's improvement over Paul in the battle. Paul, with a different team, completely owned Ash six ways to Sunday and back in their first full battle. Now we have a chance at a rematch, and Paul switches up almost his entire team, not using confirmed powerhouses like Torterra, Ursauring, and Magmortar against Ash. To me, it seemed as if the writers realized that there was no way that Ash's Sinnoh Team could beat Paul's Team from Lake Acuity, so they weakened Paul's team by adding Pokémon that we had no idea he had, and had some of them get beaten down pretty easily, so that Ash could win the fight in a realistic manner. Of the new Pokémon, only Drapion seemed to be on the same level as Torterra or Ursauring. Also, Paul sacrificed two of his Pokémon to find out what Pokémon Ash was using, when he should have suspected, based on Ash's personality and what he knew of him and their rivalry, that Ash would try to beat him using the same Pokémon and just planned on pounding Ash's Pokémon without mercy. And even without that edge, why not use six strong Pokémon that just got finished wrecking your opponent's team six-to-two. I could understand Paul switching up his team if the previous battle had been close, like six-to-four or even last Pokémon standing, but that was a stomp!

The next thing that was problematic with this battle was its length. I can take a three episode battle if all they do is battle and there is minimal break for explanation, or the battle parts are long and the explanation occurs during a natural break in the fighting, such as when a Pokémon faints or is recalled. That, however, was not the case in this episode. There were too many times when Brock broke in to explain what was going on, along with several breaks showing Team Rocket doing commentary as well as selling merchandise. The battle, itself, was broken into too many pieces with far too much commentary, much of which was needless, in my mind. Take out all of that needless filler and the battle likely would have fit into only two episodes.

To finish, the Ash and Paul battle had the potential to be an outstanding battle, but in the end, it was merely okay due to Paul using what could easily be viewed as the second string, and also due to all of the breaks for explanations and commentary. These two major flaws are the reason why this is not even in the top five, for me, of my favorite battles.

 

[Grey Wind]

He attacked me and made it incredibly personal.

Except, you know, he didn't.

He wanted me to stop arguing my opinion

No, he wanted you to stop arguing his opinion.

he wanted to limit and opress the expression of my point.

Um what. No he didn't.

That's an attack on my opinion, an attack on my right to express my opinion, and it is certainly not on. It's hypocritical, too, given some of the things he has said.

Um what. He did none of that.

All I ever did was argue my point of view

Again, all he did was state his opinion, which you would not stop arguing against for some reason.

he is the one that started saying "EVERYBODY HAS AN OPINION!"

Everybody does have an opinion, and in this case yours differed. You shouldn't have argued with it- there's no point. It's like me trying to tell you that you don't like Pokemon.

but all he has done is bold "everyone has different opinions on this show" - which I knew already!

...If you knew that, you wouldn't have been trying to change and argue his opinion.

All Haunter227 did was say that he didn't like Ash and Paul's battle. There was no need for you to continuously berate him, and try and argue an opinion. Your opinion is not factual, and neither is his. It's a personal preference in this case, which cannot be argued.