Ash vs. Paul - The Greatest Battle of All Time?

[dragonpsychicrules]

Really? Cause Ash didn't have that much trouble with the Frontier Brains but the closest he's ever gotten to defeating an Elite 4 member was when he battled Agatha and Bertha.

Well, maybe thats because he only had a 1 v 1 battle with them...in a 3 v 3 battle or a full battle he probably would have lost miserably, like when he was up against Drake or Loreili...

I would not call a bit of dodging and landing about 1 successful/effective hit "closest to defeating an E4"...

With his three golems, maybe Brandon could have fluttered around the level of Flint/Glacia/Bruno/Agatha (3rd member of the E4.)

I have to disagree...Ash took 3 rematches to beat Brandon...The guy has 3 friggin legends under his command plus those strong pokemon...

I really think Ash would have lost the match if he was against the regi trio all together...

Anyways, the point is, I think Brandon(I'd call him the strongest FB in Kanto/in games Hoenn AND Sinnoh both)...he'd be Cynthia's level, if not stronger...

Hell with plot power on his side, Ash might beat Cynthia as well after 3 rematches...

Weakest-Strongest:
Gym Leaders
Stronger Gym Leaders-Frontier Brains
Elite 4 (lowest ranked members)
Elite 4 (Highest ranked members)
Strongest Frontier Brains>=Champions

I think it'd have to be the changes in bold...

 

[poizonsting]

Ash beat the frontier brains because he used his powerhouses.

Ash almost defeated Palmer because the writers had to show that he has some capabilities as a trainer for defeating a row of trainers to face off Palmer. Plus it shows that Grotle is no wuss despite its evolution cut off its speed by a significant amount. Too bad Torterra had to suffer such humiliation of not winning a single battle due to plot power.

If there was a Elite 4 arc and had Ash used his powerhouse Pokemon, no doubt he'll be snatching some victories.

 

[thunderblade12]

Well, maybe thats because he only had a 1 v 1 battle with them...in a 3 v 3 battle or a full battle he probably would have lost miserably, like when he was up against Drake or Loreili...

I don't see what that has to do with anything. They were both using what is arguably their strongest pokemon. Why should the number of pokemon being used effect the outcome of the battle? If Ash were using multiple pokemon against their one, you'd have a point. That wasn't the case though.

Not only that... both of Ash's battles against Lorelei were one on one. Charizard vs Slowbro and Pikachu vs Cloyster. Both ended horribly.

I would not call a bit of dodging and landing about 1 successful/effective hit "closest to defeating an E4"...

I didn't mean he came close to defeating them. Just closer than he did in any of his other battles against an Elite 4 member.

I have to disagree...Ash took 3 rematches to beat Brandon...The guy has 2 friggin legends under his command plus those strong pokemon...

Ash took three tries to defeat Sabrina. And STILL couldn't defeat her fairly. Having legends doesn't automatically equate to strength. Random straw hat guy had a Heatran and he must have lost in the earlier rounds of the League. And I doubt his Dusclops, Ninjask, or Solrock are any better than Palmer's Dragonite, Milotic, or Rhyperior. And Rhyperior undeniably nearly lost to Grotle.

I really think Ash would have lost the match if he was against the regi trio all together...

Yeah, he definitely would have. Still though, owning legendaries doesn't equate to ultimate strength. The fact that Cynthia would probably be able to crush all three of his Regis with her non-legendary pokemon says a lot. I give them three hits each before they fall to Garchomp.

Sceptile and Torkoal even came close to beating Regirock and Registeel. I think the reason Paul did so badly against Brandon was because Brandon had the ability to withdraw his pokemon.

Anyways, the point is, I think Brandon(I'd call him the strongest FB in Kanto/in games Hoenn AND Sinnoh both)...he'd be Cynthia's level, if not stronger...

I really don't think so... I mean all of Paul's pokemon took like two hits from the Regis before fainting but couldn't even handle a single hit from Cynthia's Garchomp. Even Torterra was down after one hit.



A

sh beat the frontier brains because he used his powerhouses.

Ash almost defeated Palmer because the writers had to show that he has some capabilities as a trainer for defeating a row of trainers to face off Palmer. Plus it shows that Grotle is no wuss despite its evolution cut off its speed by a significant amount. Too bad Torterra had to suffer such humiliation of not winning a single battle due to plot power.

If there was a Elite 4 arc and had Ash used his powerhouse Pokemon, no doubt he'll be snatching some victories.

I notice people pass off the "because the writers can do it" and "plot power" excuses a lot, but when ever someone uses that exact same argument against them it's not valid.

 

[dragonpsychicrules]

Yeah, he definitely would have. Still though, owning legendaries doesn't equate to ultimate strength. The fact that Cynthia would probably be able to crush all three of his Regis with her non-legendary pokemon says a lot. I give them three hits each before they fall to Garchomp.

Sceptile and Torkoal even came close to beating Regirock and Registeel. I think the reason Paul did so badly against Brandon was because Brandon had the ability to withdraw his pokemon.

I agree with the second half, but I also think that Brandon's regirock could have continued the match by itself using lock oc hyperbeam/zap cannon/stone edge...Brandon only recalled it because it had taken some damage...whilst Cynthia probably chose to stick with her garchomp all the way even after the latter takes some damage because she disliked the way
Paul treated chimchar after it lost, she wanted to show Paul the trust and understanding between her and garchomp, so that garchomp trusted her so much that it could battle even with damage...

As for a Brandon v Cynthia, I don't think Cynthia will have it that easy...Both have the same ideals and unique battle style, with brilliant strategies...

There is a reason why many people who challenge Brandon FAIL...Brandon v Cynthia, I see a battle similar to Ash v Paul...both down to their last pokemon...Cynthia winning by an inch...

I agree having a legendary isn't ultimate power...

BUT WIELDING A LEGENDARY IN A MANNER IT SHOULD BE WIELDED IS TRUE POWER like Brandon does...he knows exactly how to handle them...

The trainer in the straw hat with a heatran probably doesn't know how to handle legendary the way it should be and that is why everyone should STOP COMPARING HIM WITH BRANDON BECAUSE THEY ARE WORLDS APART else obviously the former wouldn't be in a league battle and lose on top of that...

I really don't think so... I mean all of Paul's pokemon took like two hits from the Regis before fainting but couldn't even handle a single hit from Cynthia's Garchomp. Even Torterra was down after one hit.

I think its because when Paul's pokemon were battling Brandon's, they were either attacking(so Paul's pokemon's attack might have weakened Brandon's pokemon's attacks when the latter landed on Paul's pokemon) OR they were defending themselves with some move during the first/critical hit, then came the final blow...

take lairon for example...it was using special defense to strengthen its defenses when it was frozen it ice and then finally hit by zap canon...

whereas if we consider torterra in Paul v Cynthia...torterra was open(neither attacking nor defending) so, it went with one FULL HIT...i.e. with the Fullest possible power(neither weaked/intercepted and then weaked by one of torterra's attacks nor landed when torterra was using a defense move)...

 

[thunderblade12]

Lairon was the only one defending itself. Paul's other pokemon in that battle were all launching attack moves just like Murkrow, Weavile, and Torterra were against Garchomp...

 

[dragonpsychicrules]

Lairon was the only one defending itself. Paul's other pokemon in that battle were all launching attack moves just like Murkrow, Weavile, and Torterra were against Garchomp...

Yeah you're right...but I didn't mean it like that...

What I actually meant was something like this:

When Paul's pokemon attaked, usually Garchomp took ALL the hits or defended or dodged...THEN it attacked...

But in P v B:

When P's pokemon attacked, simultaneously P's pokemon also attack...sometimes not an even match...so, the weakened attacks from B's pokemon landed on P's pokemon...

Similarly, sometimes P's pokemon defended themselves to the powerful attacks got weakened when they landed on P's pokemon, so it took 2/3 hits at most...

^ this did not happen in case of Paul v Cynthia...where it was almost as if both teams take the other's attack full on...and not simultaneously

I seriously doubt Cynthia's pokemon are of much higher level than Brandon's...

Actually the way you said it seemed as if you thought Cynthia would cream Brandon with just her Garchomp alone...if so, you seriously underestimate and underrate Brandon and his ENTIRE team...

 

[Sparklingwater]

Garchomp is definately much stronger than any of the Regis. That thing will sweep Pikachu, Septile, and Torkoal. If those 3 vs all 3 Regis, it will end in a very close match (Assuming Ash is top of his game).

 

[thunderblade12]

Garchomp vs Murkrow ended with a Sky Attack vs Dragon Rush collision or something. Still ended in one hit.

I just don't see Paul's pokemon being so much weaker than Pikachu, Torkoal, and Sceptile. They did much better against the golems than any of Paul's pokemon. That's what leads me to believe that Brandon only did as well as he did because he was withdrawing his pokemon. Magmar was probably stronger than Torkoal, Sceptile is about the same level as Infernape making it equal with Electabuzz, and we've seen Paul beat Pikachu first hand a few times.

Flint is supposed to be weaker than Cynthia and even he swept Ash. OHKOing Infernape and Buizel, two pokemon that stood up to Paul.

 

[RWB]

Why is anyone trying to claim Frontier Brains to be stronger than the Anime E4s?

I know Lorelei's Slowbro oneshotted Charizard as opposed to lolnolans articuno.

Agatha's Gengar oneshotted Pikachu once it hit. Pikachu technically oneshotted Regice. But Pika is so wildly inconsistent it's ridiculous.

Paul's mons vs Brandon got 2HKO'd for the most part.
Garchomp took a supereffective attack to the face without budging, and swept Paul's team with 1HKOs.

Also, Flint annihilating Ash.

 

[dragonpsychicrules]

Why is anyone trying to claim Frontier Brains to be stronger than the Anime E4s?

I know Lorelei's Slowbro oneshotted Charizard as opposed to lolnolans articuno.

Agatha's Gengar oneshotted Pikachu once it hit. Pikachu technically oneshotted Regice. But Pika is so wildly inconsistent it's ridiculous.

Are you claiming that Ash's pokemon don't get stronger as the anime progresses???

 

[streetlightdsb]

Again, frontier brains are stronger than the elite 4s. Just because the elite 4 has a "elite" in its prefix doesn't mean they are uber super powerful than the frontier brains. Frontier brains are a group of seasoned freelance trainers, and that are not officially recognized as in the ranks of elite 4 or the champion. But that doesn't demean the strength of the frontier brains.



I guess I'm out of the consideration since I'm not a yank. That's right- wasn't specifically referring to you.

I would respond, but there's nothing more that can be said that hasn't been said here:

The fact that Ash was able to defeat Frontier Brains shows that they are not better than the Elite Four.

The Elite Four are overpowered in the anime, and Ash has never gotten "close" in any 1 v 1 against an Elite Four.

The Frontier Brains are powerful (probably the tier just below the Elite Four), but they are shown to be beatable.

Really? Cause Ash didn't have that much trouble with the Frontier Brains but the closest he's ever gotten to defeating an Elite 4 member was when he battled Agatha and Bertha. And we all know how they turned out. Even Palmer was nearly defeated by Ash's not-fully-developed Grotle despite his Rhyperior having an exaggerated ability.

No doubt you're just saying that because it's true in the games. Brandon and Palmer (the strongest Frontier Brains from their respective regions) are probably only as strong as the first members of each group of the Elite 4. With his three golems, maybe Brandon could have fluttered around the level of Flint/Glacia/Bruno/Agatha (3rd member of the E4.)

I don't think there's a huge division between Frontier Brains and Elite 4, but there definitely is some. Gym Leaders aren't wusses either. The "stronger" Gym Leaders such as Volkner, Claire, Giovanni, and Juan are probably as strong as a Frontier Brain. So there's a lot of crossover IMO

Weakest-Strongest:
Gym Leaders
Stronger Gym Leaders-Frontier Brains
Strongest Frontier Brains-Elite 4 (lowest ranked members)
Elite 4 (Highest ranked members)
Champions

Why is anyone trying to claim Frontier Brains to be stronger than the Anime E4s?

I know Lorelei's Slowbro oneshotted Charizard as opposed to lolnolans articuno.

Agatha's Gengar oneshotted Pikachu once it hit. Pikachu technically oneshotted Regice. But Pika is so wildly inconsistent it's ridiculous.

Paul's mons vs Brandon got 2HKO'd for the most part.
Garchomp took a supereffective attack to the face without budging, and swept Paul's team with 1HKOs.

Also, Flint annihilating Ash.

I get where you're coming from. In game, yes, FBs are stronger, but the Anime has consistently shown the Elite 4 are much stronger. Like untouchable pretty much. It's also worth noting about how much more revered the Elite 4 are in the anime. The brains are treated pretty much as extraordinary gym leaders.

And while I actually have to agree that Ash wouldn't have beaten Brandon using anyone else (except Snorlax perhaps), the other reserves wouldn't have been far off from it.

 

[mAdkip]

I agree it was a good battle, although I don't like how Ash won again without many hits, enduring every hit he took (well not all of his poke though) and of course not using type-machups. Infernape used Mach Punch on Ninjask and fainted it (?!) and sendind Pikachu against Aggron was stupid. And of course Torterra wasn't used at the right times again... anyway, I enjoyed Infernape kicking Paul's butt, the revenge, and what an irony!

 

[gangsta_pigs]

I don't see what that has to do with anything. They were both using what is arguably their strongest pokemon. Why should the number of pokemon being used effect the outcome of the battle? If Ash were using multiple pokemon against their one, you'd have a point. That wasn't the case though.

Not only that... both of Ash's battles against Lorelei were one on one. Charizard vs Slowbro and Pikachu vs Cloyster. Both ended horribly.





I didn't mean he came close to defeating them. Just closer than he did in any of his other battles against an Elite 4 member.



Ash took three tries to defeat Sabrina. And STILL couldn't defeat her fairly. Having legends doesn't automatically equate to strength. Random straw hat guy had a Heatran and he must have lost in the earlier rounds of the League. And I doubt his Dusclops, Ninjask, or Solrock are any better than Palmer's Dragonite, Milotic, or Rhyperior. And Rhyperior undeniably nearly lost to Grotle.






Yeah, he definitely would have. Still though, owning legendaries doesn't equate to ultimate strength. The fact that Cynthia would probably be able to crush all three of his Regis with her non-legendary pokemon says a lot. I give them three hits each before they fall to Garchomp.

Sceptile and Torkoal even came close to beating Regirock and Registeel. I think the reason Paul did so badly against Brandon was because Brandon had the ability to withdraw his pokemon.




I really don't think so... I mean all of Paul's pokemon took like two hits from the Regis before fainting but couldn't even handle a single hit from Cynthia's Garchomp. Even Torterra was down after one hit.



A

I notice people pass off the "because the writers can do it" and "plot power" excuses a lot, but when ever someone uses that exact same argument against them it's not valid.

I wouldnt say charizard and slowbro really battled

 

[RWB]

I wouldnt say charizard and slowbro really battled

Slowbro still oneshotted Charizard and could have done so in a fight as well.

Are you claiming that Ash's pokemon don't get stronger as the anime progresses???

Of course they do.



Takuto>Any Frontier Brain.


Darkrai soloed Gible, Torkoal and Heracross.


Torkoal was a challenge for Brandon's Registeel back then. Now it's even stronger.

Takuto's Darkrai>Brandon's Registeel.

Latios took out Sceptile and Swellow, Ash's strongest Hoenn mons, and tied with Pikachu.

Pikachu beat down Regice.

Takuto's Latios>Regice.

Takuto might be the only League Champ so far to be stronger than an E4 member. But his two legendaries are still looking inferior to Flint's Infernape alone.


I say the "tier list" goes like this.

Champions: Lance, Cynthia and the like

E4s: Flint is the most obvious one(though the weaker ones may be lower)

Elite Trainers/League Champs:
Takuto is here for sure, as the top player.

Harrison is likely up here(despite not even being a Champ), and Tyson is most likely. Not quite sure...

Sadly, we saw very little of Jon ****son, the Johto Champ. But then again, it was implied Harrison would have beaten him had Blaziken been in shape for a fight.

Paul and Ash are both arguably here now...

FB: Brandon could give the above quite a challenge. Maybe go above the "-sons", but he is below Takuto.

The other brains all go below.

 

[d4rk_tailed]

Yeah, he definitely would have. Still though, owning legendaries doesn't equate to ultimate strength. The fact that Cynthia would probably be able to crush all three of his Regis with her non-legendary pokemon says a lot. I give them three hits each before they fall to Garchomp.

Im backing this, Brick Break through the lot and thats it.

But consider Palmer, in the intro for Movie 11 or 12......one of them anyway, he challenges Cynthia in a stadium fight doesnt he? I know movies are only as canon as we want them to be, but does that mean he had to get past Aaron, Bertha, Flint AND Lucian first? I mean, fact its a stadium means its probs not some impromptu battle like Paul vs Cynthia.

Harrison is likely up here(despite not even being a Champ), and Tyson is most likely. Not quite sure...

Sadly, we saw very little of Jon ****son, the Johto Champ. But then again, it was implied Harrison would have beaten him had Blaziken been in shape for a fight.

Paul and Ash are both arguably here now...

Ill just contest this, Ash is more than on the level of both -sons, arguably even higher. Less experienced than he has been made now by the writers, he came close to beating Harrison, and all those Pokemon he used have for sure trained on. Against Tyson, he used a team that had been trained for one region, and Tyson looked like Flints age, probs early 20s-mid 20s right? And again the writers had him lose 6-5.

Im not sure, Ash, using Pokemon from his past and mixing up strategy and typing would 50 times out of 100 beat Tyson and Harrison now.

 

[Mr.Munchlax]

It really was an awesome battle, would love to see a full version of it cut together.

Must be up there in the top battles of the anime, not sure where I would rank it though, but in a random order the top 10 Ash battles are...

- Ash vs. Paul: Lake Acuity (Full Battle)
- Ash vs. Paul: Sinnoh League (Full Battle)
- Ash vs. Jessie with the rental Kanto Starters (3 vs. 3), great Totodile win!!!!
- Ash vs. Jeanette Fisher: Kanto League (3 vs. 3)
- As vs. Mandi: Kanto League (3 vs. 3)
- Ash vs. Gary: Silver Conference (6 vs. 6)
- Ash vs. Drake: Orange League (6 vs. 6)
- Ash vs. Vincent/Jackson: Silver Conference (3 vs. 3)
- Ash vs. Maylene: Sinnoh Gym Battle (3 vs. 3)
- Ash vs. Shingo: Johto (Heracross vs. Scizor)

What about Ash's match with Tyson?

 

[RWB]

Ill just contest this, Ash is more than on the level of both -sons, arguably even higher. Less experienced than he has been made now by the writers, he came close to beating Harrison,

Because Harrison stood around doing nothing.

His Blaziken was a LOT stronger than Charizard at the time. And just Like Ash, Harrison would be stronger by now.

Blaziken downed Zard in three moves, two of which were ineffective, while Zard didn't down Blaz with 6, 3 of which were not ineffective.

and all those Pokemon he used have for sure trained on. Against Tyson, he used a team that had been trained for one region, and Tyson looked like Flints age, probs early 20s-mid 20s right? And again the writers had him lose 6-5.

Tyson easily had the upper hand when using his actual strong mons.


Shiftry was horribly weak and got oneshotted.

Sceptile oneshotted Glalie but got oneshotted by Glalie as well. Glass Cannon.

Hariyama was a powerhouse that oneshotted Corphish and took down Torkoal.

Donphan fought a Swellow pumped up on plot power(lol, survives 6 consecutive Rollouts after taking a seismic toss, then wins by a simple toss into the wall). Lamest league fight ever.

Metagross destroyed Ash until Pikapower came onto the field.

Im not sure, Ash, using Pokemon from his past and mixing up strategy and typing would 50 times out of 100 beat Tyson and Harrison now.

He'd be about equal yes, not more than equal like you claimed.

 

[Mayfan]

I think it was the greastest battle of all time, followed closely by Ash vs. Takuto. (Fast paced action FTW!)

I think Ash and Paul are equal and it's all about strategy, luck, and typing.

 

[Sparklingwater]

I think it was the greastest battle of all time, followed closely by Ash vs. Takuto. (Fast paced action FTW!)

I think Ash and Paul are equal and it's all about strategy, luck, and typing.

Right now, Ash and Paul is about the same level as a trainer. However, because of the way he treat his pokemon, his skills as a trainer has gone as far as it can possibly go. Ash however, is far of reaching his potential. If Ash meant Paul in a few years, Paul will be far behind.

This is like the battle between Perfect Cell and Goku. They were about the same then, but after a few years, cell was basically nothing.

 

[d4rk_tailed]

Because Harrison stood around doing nothing.

His Blaziken was a LOT stronger than Charizard at the time. And just Like Ash, Harrison would be stronger by now.

Blaziken downed Zard in three moves, two of which were ineffective, while Zard didn't down Blaz with 6, 3 of which were not ineffective.

Harrison......sitting on his a**e, playing guitar from the porch of his country ranch. You never know eh? We havent a clue what has happened to Tyson or Harrison, but theres no reason why just because they both experience the exact same time period they continued as trainers and experienced the same upward trajectory that Ash appears to have had. Look at Gary

Tyson easily had the upper hand when using his actual strong mons.

Shiftry was horribly weak and got oneshotted.

Sceptile oneshotted Glalie but got oneshotted by Glalie as well. Glass Cannon.

Hariyama was a powerhouse that oneshotted Corphish and took down Torkoal.

Donphan fought a Swellow pumped up on plot power(lol, survives 6 consecutive Rollouts after taking a seismic toss, then wins by a simple toss into the wall). Lamest league fight ever.

Ah man sorry, since I didnt watch Hoenn, I missed the first ep of their battle. Sorry I promise to watch it soon.

Metagross destroyed Ash until Pikapower came onto the field.

Grovyle was doing alright wasnt it? Anyway, plot is plot, doesnt matter that in the end Pikachu was required to do the business, since Pika isnt a one-off character who is only there every now and then.

He'd be about equal yes, not more than equal like you claimed.

British? Because we use it as a figure of speech rather than literal meaning.

Bolded stuff is mine