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Ash vs. Paul - The Greatest Battle of All Time?

Lily Nadesico

Active Member
Oh, please! THAT would be the greatest battle in Pokemon history? It's all hype.

While I agree that it was somewhat better than the crap the anime writers regularly showed down our throats in the Sinnoh saga, it still wasn't satisfying for the simple facts that

A- Ash didn't defeat the team that had steamrolled his Pokemon at Lake Acuity, so it didn't feel like a real victory.

B- How Paul acted. Are we really supposed to believe that THIS is how Paul would have acted if he was in character? The writer seem to have forgotten that this is the same guy who abandoned Chimchar to a possible death because he wasn't strong enough for him... and suddently, he shows respect for his opponents and doesn't throw a fit over losing to an "inferior" Pokemon? I call BS on that. Paul should have gone completely batshit at his defeat and scream and rant about how his perfectly-trained team couldn't possibly lose to "weaklings" like Ash and Infernape. The REAL Paul is an irredeemable jerk who is mean to everyone for no reason at all and should have become a recurring villain, not a somewhat gruff guy who randomly decides that he's cool with losing.

...

Oh, right, this is the Pokemon anime. Excuse me for expecting something satisfying out of it.
 

Graham Aker

Well-Known Member
It was very good. I would say it was definately one of the best, and a nice conclusion to probably the best rivalry in the series.
 

Corzola

Gible´s biggest fan!
A- Ash didn't defeat the team that had steamrolled his Pokemon at Lake Acuity, so it didn't feel like a real victory.

B- How Paul acted. Are we really supposed to believe that THIS is how Paul would have acted if he was in character? The writer seem to have forgotten that this is the same guy who abandoned Chimchar to a possible death because he wasn't strong enough for him... and suddently, he shows respect for his opponents and doesn't throw a fit over losing to an "inferior" Pokemon? I call BS on that. Paul should have gone completely batshit at his defeat and scream and rant about how his perfectly-trained team couldn't possibly lose to "weaklings" like Ash and Infernape. The REAL Paul is an irredeemable jerk who is mean to everyone for no reason at all and should have become a recurring villain, not a somewhat gruff guy who randomly decides that he's cool with losing.
Well let us answer this anime- wise, not with the power of the plot.

Answer to a - That may not have been the same team, but from what we know of Paul, he would not even own weak Pokémon, making this line- up just as strong as his "first". If he deems a Pokémon weak he releases it, and those he still has is therefore up to his standards. On top of that, his change in team may be based on the assumtion that Ash could now counter the Lake Acuity line- up. Ash won against the team Paul picked to defeat him, that is as real any victory could be.

Answer to b - First of all, through all of the series Paul has shown to be respectful to trainers that are people of authorities. This ranges from ordinary Gym- Leaders to big- shots as Brandon, Cynthia etc. This he shows them even if he loses or wins (Maylene is one exception to this rule, he won and sharply critizised a Gym- Leader). But he almost always stays calm (his loss against Brandon is the one exception to that rule). To throw a hissy- fit after losing to Ash would not be in character. Instead it is character- like to just recognize the loss and then walk away.

Second, he never saw Infernape (as the then Chimchar) as inferior when it came to raw power, but he saw him inferior because he could not use blaze/his powers on command. He also pressed Ash to train Infernape to use this and when he saw what powers Infernape could deliver, he rightly recognized this after the loss. He saw that Ash had succeded where he had failed, and that is an accomplishment to both Ash and Infernape.
 

TicoPokemonMaster

Well-Known Member
Corzola, I would like to add to some of the point you made.

with your comment on Paul thinking Chimchar was inferior because he couldn't control Chimchar's blaze. It tipical for anyone with Paul's got to win attuide that if he/she comes across something he/she can't control what better way to brush it of by saying that it is weak or as you say inferior.

Plus Paul's lose to Brandon was paul's breaking point. His true feelings for why the way he is were revealed and from there Paul was experiencing change not trastic change though as proven from the full battle.

Paul's change came in the ep were Ash and Infernape controlled Blaze. He didn't brush off Ash's challenge rather he wanted to fullfill his request at the Sinnoh League.

So I would say that anyone who thinks that wasn't a good battle then that's their opinion, but it sure isn't mine.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Lily's post made no sense and completely disregards the idea of "character development".

IMO, Paul began to change as soon as he found out Ash beat Brandon. Since then, he only appeared in the full battle, Infernape's evolution episode and the league, if I recall correctly.

In A Pyramiding Rage, Paul taunted Ash, laughing off his decision to use Grotle in an Ice-type gym, telling him he must have chalked it all up to blind faith etc. He then found out about Ash's defeat of Brandon and hardly directly spoke to him since. But it started him thinking. During the full battle, Ash and Paul had very little direct conversation. Where Paul could have taunted Ash and laughed at him (for example, he did this in their first battle, repeatedly) he remained silent and thoughtful. He walked off smugly when he won, without a word to Ash, which was some kind of change. Then you see him when Infernape evolved. There was enough respect there to both save Ash's Pokemon and have a serious, mature conversation with him and talk about them having a battle at the Sinnoh League. He was always accepting of authority, whether it be Nurse Joys or Refs, anyway.

He congratulated Barry on his battle, reluctantly, which was key. Notice the music as soon as Paul said it, as well - it's clearly meant to be taken as a breakthrough for Paul's character. When he talked to Ash during the match, he seemed to regard him as an equal, and they departed as equals. Like I said, it's called character development. If Paul had lost to Ash in the league in DP010 or something, he probably would have gone insane. But he didn't. And there's enough evidence supporting clear character development to suggest a ragey, Villainous Breakdown of a reaction would be unfitting.
 

RWB

Dragon busted by Her
British? Because we use it as a figure of speech rather than literal meaning.
I'm swedish. And more than equal means, well, equal or better any way you slice it.

Disagree. Charizard managed to weaken Blaziken that much, that it couldn't even participate. Blaziken was hands down the strongest Pokemon Harrison had and the fact that Charizard weakened it and took away Harrison's chance of winning, proves that Blaziken isn't a lot stronger then Charizard. It's stronger, but not by a lot.

Blaziken took twice the amount of attacks Zard did and unlike the ones Charizard too they were not "not very effective". Despite this it won.

Blaziken was quite clearly stronger than Zard. And not just by a smidge, either.


If Shiftry did indeed get oneshotted, then look at Ash's team versus Takuto. Then all of them are weak, by your view.
Except Takuto used legendaries, and Shiftry fought what had been Ash's weakest Hoenn mon up until then.

Torkoal got stronger later on.

Also, Shiftry only had this one fight vs Torkoal as a showcase, as opposed to Swellow, for example, who fought in Ash's match.


Tyson and Harrison were better then Ash at that point, but not by lot. Now, Ash might be stronger then both.
Or they might have improved even more than he did. We don't know, and as such we should assume equal growth, in which case both are still better than Ash.
 

RWB

Dragon busted by Her
British? Because we use it as a figure of speech rather than literal meaning.
I'm swedish. And more than equal means, well, equal or better any way you slice it.

Disagree. Charizard managed to weaken Blaziken that much, that it couldn't even participate. Blaziken was hands down the strongest Pokemon Harrison had and the fact that Charizard weakened it and took away Harrison's chance of winning, proves that Blaziken isn't a lot stronger then Charizard. It's stronger, but not by a lot.

Blaziken took twice the amount of attacks Zard did and unlike the ones Charizard too they were not "not very effective". Despite this it won.

Blaziken was quite clearly stronger than Zard. And not just by a smidge, either.


If Shiftry did indeed get oneshotted, then look at Ash's team versus Takuto. Then all of them are weak, by your view.
Except Takuto used legendaries, and Shiftry fought what had been Ash's weakest Hoenn mon up until then.

Torkoal got stronger later on.

Also, Shiftry only had this one fight vs Torkoal as a showcase, as opposed to Swellow, for example, who fought in Ash's match.


Tyson and Harrison were better then Ash at that point, but not by lot. Now, Ash might be stronger then both.
Or they might have improved even more than he did. We don't know, and as such we should assume equal growth, in which case both are still better than Ash.
 

poizonsting

Pokemon master
It was totally out of character for Paul to walk to Ash and admit that Ash's training style was better than him. It doesn't make sense since what's the record of Ash-Paul battle so far? 1-4 or 1-5. Losing just 1 match to Ash doesn't make Ash's training style superior than Paul. Accepting the defeat to Ash and then walk away is one thing, but walking to Ash and admitting his training style is better is not like Paul. What would have made more sense for Paul is after losing if he said "Pathetic" or "You were lucky" and then walked away with dignity that he's still the better trainer than Ash. Like NewGuy stated above, Paul shows respect to stronger trainers, if defeated by them admits defeat then move on. He could have done the same thing after losing to Ash - could have admitted the defeat without acknowledging Ash's victory over him and moved on with the dignity that he's still the better trainer.

So this is also one of the reasons why this battle is one of the worst battles in the show seeing how the end to their rivalry turned out to be. Also, Electivire should have crushed Infernape to the ground, continued to Thunderpunch its motionless body till it fainted, till after the referee declared 'Infernape is unable to battle', even after Ash jumped over Infernape's body and pleading Paul to stop.
 

PkmnBlitzValor

Pkmn Trainer
sometimes the nintendo company just waits for the right prrotunity to amaze you with how awesome it can get, which is why they have these ridiculously awesome battles
 

dawn hater

Well-Known Member
It was totally out of character for Paul to walk to Ash and admit that Ash's training style was better than him. It doesn't make sense since what's the record of Ash-Paul battle so far? 1-4 or 1-5. Losing just 1 match to Ash doesn't make Ash's training style superior than Paul. Accepting the defeat to Ash and then walk away is one thing, but walking to Ash and admitting his training style is better is not like Paul. What would have made more sense for Paul is after losing if he said "Pathetic" or "You were lucky" and then walked away with dignity that he's still the better trainer than Ash. Like NewGuy stated above, Paul shows respect to stronger trainers, if defeated by them admits defeat then move on. He could have done the same thing after losing to Ash - could have admitted the defeat without acknowledging Ash's victory over him and moved on with the dignity that he's still the better trainer.
I think you don't get it but it was not about who wins the battle or not. The main thing in the rivalry was who will be able to make Chimchar activate Blaze and make it control the ability too. Paul was never able to make Chimchar even activate Blaze but Ash went farther and made Infernape control its ability. Paul is a smart trainer and seeing that Ash did what Paul was not able to do, he came to know that his training style was wrong.

So this is also one of the reasons why this battle is one of the worst battles in the show seeing how the end to their rivalry turned out to be. Also, Electivire should have crushed Infernape to the ground, continued to Thunderpunch its motionless body till it fainted, till after the referee declared 'Infernape is unable to battle', even after Ash jumped over Infernape's body and pleading Paul to stop.
Seriously? Its a kids show. What do you want? Electivire to break Infernape's head with Brick Break?
 
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thunderblade12

Well-Known Member
Anyone actually expect poisonsting to think Ash vs Paul was a good battle even 6 months before we got any information on it?... Anyone?... Anyone?... No?

Seriously, if you don't have an argument, don't make one. Lame excuses just hinder the point you're trying to get across. When exactly did Paul "admit Ash's training style was better?" He admitted Ash was an equal and promised to battle him again. Which he is. If he can beat him even one time, then the gap between them can't be large enough to even be of significance any more.

*Awaits a barrage of excuses including the following gem*

"The writers are just trying to fool us that Infernape is strong, when IT'S NOT. My opinion means more than the actual writers of this show! Bow before me!"
 

Blazicken

Sex on fire
It was a great battle, but not the greatest battle of all time...
it certainly is in the top 5 though
 

d4rk_tailed

Doritoes,Leaf Storm!
Oh RWB, you DID understand what I meant :D Geez, some of you making me think Im entirely incoherent and babbling shizzle. Cool to iron that one out anyhow ;)

On another note, pardon me for the stupid and illogical cr*p Im about to spout, anyone think that since we knew Ash was going to win whatever the weather, the writers could have allowed Gliscor and Pikachu to remain standing? RANT MODE ON why they have to do a frippin' 6-5 all over again?

So this is also one of the reasons why this battle is one of the worst battles in the show seeing how the end to their rivalry turned out to be. Also, Electivire should have crushed Infernape to the ground, continued to Thunderpunch its motionless body till it fainted, till after the referee declared 'Infernape is unable to battle', even after Ash jumped over Infernape's body and pleading Paul to stop.
Seriously? Its a kids show. What do you want? Electivire to break Infernape's head with Brick Break?
@Dawnhater, erm, I think we're reading the comment wrong, obviously its a kiddies programme, however, hes probs thinking more along the lines of why did the battle have to culminate with Electivire telling the umpire to piss off and give Infernape all day to get up? Just his expression of that idea is a bit OTT angry.
 
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poizonsting

Pokemon master
Charizard versus Magmar was the best.
^ He speaks the truth. Although not the best battle in my opinion, but it's definitely up there as one of the best battles in the show.
 

dawn hater

Well-Known Member
@Dawnhater, erm, I think we're reading the comment wrong, obviously its a kiddies programme, however, hes probs thinking more along the lines of why did the battle have to culminate with Electivire telling the umpire to piss off and give Infernape all day to get up? Just his expression of that idea is a bit OTT angry.
Maybe because Paul and his Electivire is just like Goku or Vegeta from DBZ. They make their opponent reach their full potential and then fight\beat them. Goku did same against Freeza and Vegeta did against Cell. Paul wanted to test that if he was on a level to take Blaze head on and rest is history.
 

Cazak

When Wings Fly High
Charizard versus Magmar was the best.
I won't say that is the best, but it was a good battle, and a pretty notable one too, considering its the 1st time Charizard listened to Ash.
 

J-W

Well-Known Member
I think Charizard vs Poliwrath.

Come on, can anyone honestly say that they didn't enjoy the episode 'Charizard Chills'? I was like 8 when the first couple of series were out, and i was used to a disobedient Charizard. For the whole dramatic episode to occur, it was amazing. Although Paul vs Ash was good, and very dramatic, my favourite battle IMO is that one against the belt-wearing toad.
 
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