Ash vs. Paul - The Greatest Battle of All Time?

[TheNewGuy]

At least Paul's Torterra retires undefeated (bar Garchomp).

I think that is enough of a send-off for it. Its record is almost pristine >_>

 

[DoleWhip]

There were some issues with this battle that really lowered my impressions of it:

-Paul was completely watered down, and there's no hiding it. 4 of his pokemon failed to earn a single win, whereas last time only one of Paul's pokemon was defeated without a victory. I can't accept that it's because Ash got stronger, because...
-Ash proved that he hasn't improved as a trainer. Um, bringing out Torterra against Drapion when Torterra has no strong moves against it? Failing to utilize Torterra's defenses and committing suicide with rock climb again? Letting his entire team (besides Pikachu) get badly poisoned? Then there's activating Electivire's motor drive again, forgetting his gym match that was 10 episodes ago (by the way, this basically negates Pika's win over Volkner's Electivire - I would have much rather seen Frosslass use destiny bond before being hit by volt tackle). Ash relied on Infernape, whose power honestly seems out of Ash's league (yes, there's Charizard, but Ash didn't train it for the most part and we had the obedience dilemma).
-Again with the Paul watered down bit, he didn't use many super strategies. Gastrodon's counter shield and domination of Staraptor was cool, and Drapion's toxic spikes and Electivire's pure power were cool. But Frosslass was too weak to pull off its strategy (no idea why Paul would choose it for this match) and Ninjask didn't even use baton pass. It was just a frail little fly that fell to one move that's supposed to be super weak against it.
-Infernape taking out half of Paul's team. This happened in Ash vs. Gary, where Charizard defeated Scizor, Golem, and Blastoise. But besides Scizor, both remaining pokemon were huge powerhouses (with Blastoise being his strongest) that had significant advantages over Charizard. This just made Charizard look even better. Infernape tearing Aggron and Ninjask apart made those 2 pokemon look weak (Infernape probably could have handled Frosslass as well, and hit Drapion with a flamethrower if Ash wanted). It just felt cheaper, and the majority of the battle didn't make me think "wow, Ash is a strong trainer."

Yes, Infernape vs. Electivire was amazing (and I'm glad this Electivire didn't use ice punch or iron tail like Volkner's), but I didn't really enjoy how the battle reached that point. I would have liked to see:

-A Buizel vs. Torterra rematch instead of Pika/Infernape vs. Aggron (remember, this was the very first match-up in Lake Acuity). Paul thinks he has a huge advantage, but Buizel uses its speed and powerful ice punch (or even an ice aqua jet based on its own ice power) to significantly weaken (or knock out) the thing. If it doesn't knock it out, Infernape could have done it with flare blitz (which would have said a lot more than defeating Paul's relatively weak Aggron).
-I'm not trying to advocate seeing Paul's full Lake Acuity team. Even some of his new pokemon could have been utilized much better, which a lot of people were expecting based on posts here. Frosslass using destiny bond on Pikachu would have been a good strategy that we haven't seen since Katie against Glalie (plus it would have spared Pikachu the humiliation of going down to Electivire after just beating one for the first time). Ninjask using baton pass to actually boost Paul's other players (such as making Gastrodon speedier or boosting Drapion's attack power to obscene levels, justifying pin missile's huge impact on a recovered Torterra). I wouldn't even have minded if Ash's Torterra still didn't get a win, but it would have been nice to see Ash finally understanding how to use it in battle.

For that matter, Ash vs. Katie is one of my favorite 6-on-6 matches (along with the first Ash/Paul match). Katie was Ash's first opponent to really utilize strategic switching. She knocked out Pikachu early and sacrificed her Misdreavus with a strategy that brought down Glalie. In the second half of the battle, Ash's Hoenn trio all battled well and got some wins. Corphish and Swellow fought hard, then Katie's Walrein nearly defeated half of Ash's team, but Ash actually battled smartly by utilizing Grovyle and the field to his advantage. The only downsides were seeing another Scizor and Torkoal/Pikachu being fall guys (but both got other wins during the league - Katie making quick work of them just made me think more of her as a trainer). No, this battle wasn't as epic (as Katie wasn't even a rival), but it wasn't supposed to be. For a filler trainer, I thought this was amazing.

 

[Navin]

Not to mention we have absolutely no reason to believe his new team is any weaker.


A paragraph per pokemon isn't long BTW

Torterra - Alright, we seen it destroy Farfetch'd and Croagunk. So what? Croagunk didn't even do horrible against it which is the funny part. Then in the battle against Gliscor, it did seem tired out. It gained a lot of strength back with Giga Drain, but it seemed pretty tired from the hits it took beforehand. Not to mention it fell just as easily to Garchomp as Chimchar, Murkrow, and Weavile.

Honchkrow - Staraptor was beating the crap out of it in the Pokeringer contest. It's only other battles were against Grotle. The first time it couldn't even move and the second time Ash's timing was horrible (not making this up, watch the dub or a subbed version.) Against Maylene it did the exact same as the (unevolved) Staravia, polishing off her Meditite and Machoke. And it'a only other battle was against a Dragonite. And mind you, it's species doesn't automatically make it hard to beat in the anime. I'm sure that Twinleaf Town kid's Tyranitar wouldn't be too much trouble. Combine that with the fact that Honchkrow's (exaggerated) ability activated and it's no wonder it won.

Weavile - Weavile is actually a member of Paul's old team that people call weak for absolutely no reason. Just goes to show the bias. If anything of Ash's defeats one of Paul's pokemon, that pokemon will automatically become "weak." Aside from the battle against Cynthia (you're really stretching things if you even think about counting this one) it's only other battles were against that Gliscor and Ash. Gliscor didn't actually defeat Weavile, it just hit it with a damn attack. When did that equal winning? Electabuzz tumbled into Paul from one of Gliscor's attacks, it weak too? And against Ash, why can't Staraptor simply be Ash's strongest pokemon at that point? It was his only fully evolved one back then and it did look like it could have defeated his Honchkrow as well. It had a type advatage(2X) but Staraptor had Close Combat with a quad type advantage. Besides, he caught it in a region before Sinnoh (just like Murkrow.) Why keep it that long if it wasn't reliable on other occasions?

Ursaring - Drapion filled it's shoes, why does it matter? Ursaring was never called Paul's "trump card" either.

Magmortar - It honestly didn't seem THAT great. I never got the feeling of epic power from it when I watched Ash and Paul's first battle. It never defeated a single pokemon. Most of the damage done against Pikachu were from Burns inflicted on it and the only attack from it that even connected with Buizel was Smog. Pikachu and Buizel probably did more damage to Magmortar than it did to them. Against Brandon it fell just as easily as the other five. Maylene and her Lucario weren't fully charged or some crap until her battle with Dawn. Reggie even said "I wonder how a battle between Paul and THIS Maylene would have turned out." Against Barry it killed Skarmory, that was impressive. Not enough to make it seem like an unbeatable powerhouse though.

Okay you can point out weaknesses..great. But from what I have seen, Paul certainly didn't bring his best (or at least a stronger) lineup against Ash at the conference. That doesn't make the battle bad...I thought it was an amazing battle, but it was something that does slightly detract from its worth. From what I have seen, it seems that a lineup of Torterra, Magmortar, Ursaring, Electivire, Honchkrow, and Drapion would be better than a lineup of Electivire, Drapion, Ninjask, Aggron, Gastrodon, and Froslass. That's my opinion. It's not a problem however, because I'm sure if Ash brought a stronger/powerhouse team, he'd probably beat that team as well.

 

[TheNewGuy]

for the record, Ninjask took a bit of damage from underground flare blitz and a couple of the stone edge stones hit it.

Ninjask is naturally frail and the idea with it was to not get hit, but Infernape managed to find it eventually. Ash activating Motor Drive was a strategy to lure Paul in. Watch Ash's smirk. It didn't work, mind.

 

[Looper Bone]

Hello guys, I think we all know what the best battle ever was.

Ash vs. Samurai, Metapod vs. Metapod!! Total Epicness!!!111!11!

 

[CyberCubed]

Why do people keep acting like this team was weaker?

I repeat, Torterra and Magmortar are the only two older ones Ash never beat. And I'm sure he would have had he face them.

 

[Looper Bone]

The animation alone puts this battle above all the others.

 

[Navin]

Why do people keep acting like this team was weaker?

I repeat, Torterra and Magmortar are the only two older ones Ash never beat. And I'm sure he would have had he face them.

That's speculation. Torterra is Paul's starter/strongest Pokemon. Considering how Drapion and Electivire nearly defeated Ash, how can you say, with those two (and now his strongest), plus Magmortar, that Ash would have beaten them?

Sure, the team he used against Ash at the league nearly won, so it was an effective lineup. But that's almost completely due to Drapion and Electivire's prowess. Aggron and Ninjask didn't display much strategy, and they fell relatively quickly. Gastrodon's countershield and body-trapping was effective against Staraptor, but then it dies after a punch from Buizel. Froslass had a legit strategy, but then it just took a few hits from Pickachu to knock it out.

I'll give this team credit due to its creativity, strategy, and surprise, but I cannot admit that this is Paul at his finest with his finest.

 

[Hyuuga Neji]

This was definately one of the best. Also people that say the volt tackle was a rookie move obiviosly missed Ashs smirk. Also people saying Paul was nerfed are idiots. People saying Ash hasnt grown are equally blind.

 

[poizonsting]

"Too long" doesn't equate to "greatest battle of all time" or "most epic battle of all time". Ash vs Paul match literally dragged along for 3 frigging episodes. They could have just made it short to make more time for Ash vs Takuto match, but no, they had to exaggerate a certain fire type in Ash vs Paul match. It's not fun to watch.

 

[Hikari Paradise]

I thought this was the best battle of all time. I admit Ash vs Drake was good but it didn't have the impact that this did. The 4 year buildup, the animation, the music, and sheer epicness makes this battle unmatched.

 

[eemo108]

what they still have to answer is why drapion was that strong. Of course its defense was naturally high but lets see what it took down:
1) A 100% health buizel, or u can say 90% for fighting Gastrodon
2) A weakened Staraptor maybe 50% health
3) A 100% torterra, absolutely stupid. Torterra is a really strong pokemon which the writers made look weak
4) Lost to a 60% health Gliscor and dealt 40% damage to it.

Its waaaaaaaaaaayyy too strong. Taking down Staraptor, Buizel and dealing 40% damage to gliscor is no problem, but defeating torterra as well???? That too after using synthesis??? Paul's torterra told ash's grotle that it could rely on defense more even though its speed was reduced. By the looks of it Drapion's defense is better than Torterra's defense which is even more stupid. Aside from that everything was cool. Only thing, I feel Paul could have won if he had replaced Aggaron or Frosslass with Ursaring, or at the very least Magmortar. Man Ursaring's a beast.

 

[ijea4444]

Anyone who thinks Paul's league team was weak lacks common sense and lacks deductive skills.

 

[eemo108]

This was definately one of the best. Also people that say the volt tackle was a rookie move obiviosly missed Ashs smirk. Also people saying Paul was nerfed are idiots. People saying Ash hasnt grown are equally blind.

So why did Ash use Volt tackle I still dont get it

 

[Navin]

Anyone who thinks Paul's league team was weak lacks common sense and lacks deductive skills.

I don't think anybody is arguing his team as "weak." That's a stupid statement to make. Because if it was weak, it wouldn't have been able to nearly defeat Ash's team.

But I don't think it's nonsensical to say that his team may not have been his best. It's not like Ash brought his best either.

The battle could have been more satisfying if it hadn't been just Drapion pulling an Ursaring and Electivire being a powerhouse (I know the others did weaken [though not much] Ash's team, but still...no wins). I think it's not so much that Lake Acuity team + Drapion should have been used, but the fact that it was really Drapion and Electivire running the show.

That being said...and returning to the topic of this thread, it was still a great battle, despite whatever shortcomings it may have had. It definitely ranks as one of the show's best.

 

[Cazak]

Now that I remember it, Ash vs Drake is my number 1 battle. That battle was just amazing. Ash used strategy real well, saving his poke'mon for Dragonite. Back then, the animation was not as it is now, but it was an outstanding match. The only disappointment was Bulbasaur being the fall guy, but even it got a few punches.

 

[eemo108]

so anybody want to answer:
Why ash had pikachu use volt tackle on electivire and then smirk?

 

[ijea4444]

Paul's team did everything perfectly, the only problem was Ash was just stronger and smarter. Not to say that Ash is overall completely better than Paul, but at the end of the day Ash was slightly better.

Ninjask was superspeeding around everywhere, how does anyone think that Paul could have predicted Infernape's underground flareblitz would slow it down?

Froslass did great, but Pikachu hit it hard with a supereffective iron tail(people here act as if Iron Tail isn't supereffective against froslass, its just as effective as infernape using flamethrower on a grass type) and a volt tackle (which btw people also seem to underestimate, keep in mind this is the pikachu version of flareblitz, not to be taken lightly). Infact Froslass had almost won if Pikachu hadn't used Volt tackle while frozen. Once again, a miscalculation of Pikachu's strength.

Reggie mentioned 3 times, once in dp187 and twice in dp 188, and paul himself mentioned in dp 188, his mission with aggron and gastrodon was to uncover ash's team and predict his moves that would lead Drapion to sweep(where btw drapion did sweep. it was stated that torterra coming out was completely predicted by paul and was exactly why paul knew exactly how to KO torterra. I'm not saying drapion wasn't strong, but aggron/gastrodon's KO led drapion into a larger sweep)

Drapion obviously, did great in this battle thanks to Gastrdon and Aggron.

Electivire did great, and did nothing wrong except fall under the prey of Blazefernape.


Which is why my point stands, Paul did nothing wrong. Under the knowledge he had froslass could have beaten pikachu, drapion could sweep ash's team with the help of aggron/gastrodon, and electivire could have the ability to beat infernape.

 

[poizonsting]

Those of who are saying stuffs like "greatest battle seen in my lyfe" or "lulz epic", I believe most of them have started watching the show since D/P, so they apparently have no other match to compare to. It's like one of the characters in Pokemon saying (while watching a battle) "Wow that's the most powerful X move/X Pokemon I've ever seen" even though they have seen that X move/X Pokemon for the first time in their life.

I think the dumbest remark in this thread is "the anemation eez awsom". Time has changed, animation has improved from what it has been 10 years ago. It's only natural. But that doesn't mean an "epic" battle couldn't have taken place 10 years ago due to lack of good animation (relative to today's standard)

 

[Navin]

Paul's team did everything perfectly, the only problem was Ash was just stronger and smarter. Not to say that Ash is overall completely better than Paul, but at the end of the day Ash was slightly better.

Ninjask was superspeeding around everywhere, how does anyone think that Paul could have predicted Infernape's underground flareblitz would slow it down?

Froslass did great, but Pikachu hit it hard with a supereffective iron tail(people here act as if Iron Tail isn't supereffective against froslass, its just as effective as infernape using flamethrower on a grass type) and a volt tackle (which btw people also seem to underestimate, keep in mind this is the pikachu version of flareblitz, not to be taken lightly). Infact Froslass had almost won if Pikachu hadn't used Volt tackle while frozen. Once again, a miscalculation of Pikachu's strength.

Reggie mentioned 3 times, once in dp187 and twice in dp 188, and paul himself mentioned in dp 188, his mission with aggron and gastrodon was to uncover ash's team and predict his moves that would lead Drapion to sweep(where btw drapion did sweep. it was stated that torterra coming out was completely predicted by paul and was exactly why paul knew exactly how to KO torterra. I'm not saying drapion wasn't strong, but aggron/gastrodon's KO led drapion into a larger sweep)

Drapion obviously, did great in this battle thanks to Gastrdon and Aggron.

Electivire did great, and did nothing wrong except fall under the prey of Blazefernape.


Which is why my point stands, Paul did nothing wrong. Under the knowledge he had froslass could have beaten pikachu, drapion could sweep ash's team with the help of aggron/gastrodon, and electivire could have the ability to beat infernape.

Seeing how I was watching it in Japanese, I had absolutely NO IDEA what was being actually said except by what I could figure out...

Yeah I agree with you that the team was good. It was never bad to begin with. It almost did what it accomplished, but it was just not good enough at the end.

I'm just pointing out that if Paul didn't resort to this undercover-sweep strategy, and just used other Pokemon of his that are just strong/difficult to defeat/powerhouses (his Lake Acuity team), the match would have been a lot harder for Ash.