Ash vs. Paul - Two Years On

[1rkhachatryan]

If you expected it to beat Bertha you were always going to be disappointed. Being the fall guy against Volkner AND not winning at the league did suck though, yes.



Immediately after Ash/Paul aired in Japan I made a topic on here asking if it was the best battle of all time (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?463142-Ash-vs-Paul-The-Greatest-Battle-of-All-Time). Responses were mixed, and the critics of the battle used the same reasons as here: Paul used the wrong team (even though it would have been out-of-character for him to use the same Pokemon again); Torterra was shunned; Infernape got unnecessary spotlight.

But then they would compare the battle to the clearly superior and better Ash vs. Gary or Ash vs. Drake and not subject it to anything like that level of intense, analytic scrutiny. "Ash vs. Gary was better because it got 5 years of buildup to Ash vs. Paul's 4" is one response I remember, which is a completely substance-free argument when you remember that I'm pretty sure Gary disappeared for a literal year's worth of episode at one point, making the "buildup" less intense and complete than Ash/Paul. It's a double-standard. People look at Ash/Paul and nitpick, nitpick, nitpick. They don't do that with any other battle, and I feel like if they DID - if everybody did a complete, detailed, thorough analysis of every major battle in the series - a hell of a lot of flaws would be exposed. But no, only Ash vs. Paul should be held up to such scrutiny.

People talk about past battles in other threads all the time, but I've personally never seen lots of people whine (MAYBE one dissenting voice or two) about how Charizard "didn't need three wins" and "could have still starred if it had only beaten Blastoise". People have one rule for the more recent Ash/Paul and one rule for the other, more nostalgic, Ash/Gary.

See the reason I'm kind of okay with Charizard taking over that battle is cuz if you looked at the Johto team, it sucked, lets be honest. Up to that point, Snorlax/Charizard/Pikachu/Bulbasaur/Squirtle were his only really powerful and trained pokemon. I mean I guess throw Bayleef and Cyndaquil in there if you want but the majority of his pokemon were still vastly under trained compared to Gary's. For this reason, Charizard taking over was kind of expected. Although I do feel that Bayleef should of got a win there. I mean who else would the wins have gone to?? Snorlax and Heracross were the other two winners if I'm remembering correctly.

Now fast forward to the Paul battle, and we have fairly well trained team so there was no need for Ash to rely on one pokemon. Buizel(if he evolved), Torterra, and Gliscor were more then capable of getting multiple wins in that battle too. I just don't like how the Paul battle focused too much on any one pokemon.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I liked the fact that the 6 Pokemon were Pokemon Ash had trained from the start of DP until Gliscor left. We really got to see each Pokemon have their own story arcs and have a successful conclusion to those story arcs except poor Torterra who should have ended his story by beating Honchkrow. In Ash vs Gary, Bayleef, Tauros and Muk got destroyed. Heracross did decently but he hadn't been with Ash long enough in Johto. And I really do stick by Ash riding Snorlax's coattails. Snorlax was always powerful since Ash caught him, he hardly battled after Ash caught him but when he did appear on rare occasions, he used the strength he always had before Ash caught him to get him out of tough situations. Charizard also went through intense training with a woman who knows how to train Charizards. But maybe I was somewhat off in my last sentence because it was Ash who came up with the strategy to beat Blastoise.

Yeah, I agree with most of what you said for sure. Just think that Ash is definitely a talented trainer on his own, and was even during the battle with Gary. In many ways, though, Ash vs. Paul was the pinnacle of Ash's intelligence and strength as a trainer in like 15 years of Pokemon. Paul was Ash's most formidable opponent that he actually ended up beating - obviously someone like Tobias or someone is more formidable.

It really makes me wonder how come Ash never gets to just breeze through battles with his newers pokemon like with charizard and snorlax. It wouldn't have killed the writers to replace one of the sinnoh league victors fillers like the meowth falls in love one by having ash demolish a newbie to show how far he's come.

Because that's not really very interesting imo. It's nice to see proof that Ash is a strong trainer, but that's implicit in the fact he is an Orange League Champion and has multiple good performances in league tournaments.

That said, I could get on board with something like Ash vs. Casey (which Charizard won without even commanding a move >_>), but only if it was to lead to an interesting mentor-student relationship. Just a 6-on-6 that Ash wins 6-0, though? Nah, not for me.

See the reason I'm kind of okay with Charizard taking over that battle is cuz if you looked at the Johto team, it sucked, lets be honest. Up to that point, Snorlax/Charizard/Pikachu/Bulbasaur/Squirtle were his only really powerful and trained pokemon. I mean I guess throw Bayleef and Cyndaquil in there if you want but the majority of his pokemon were still vastly under trained compared to Gary's. For this reason, Charizard taking over was kind of expected. Although I do feel that Bayleef should of got a win there. I mean who else would the wins have gone to?? Snorlax and Heracross were the other two winners if I'm remembering correctly.

Now fast forward to the Paul battle, and we have fairly well trained team so there was no need for Ash to rely on one pokemon. Buizel(if he evolved), Torterra, and Gliscor were more then capable of getting multiple wins in that battle too. I just don't like how the Paul battle focused too much on any one pokemon.

But, again, Ash/Gary "focused too much on any one Pokemon" too. Charizard, Blastoise had just as much coverage as Infernape, Drapion.

Oh and hey, look at that. Ash's Johto team was bad. And do you know why Ash's Johto team was bad? Because of bad writing. The Sinnoh team was written far more effectively. Just like the whole saga was better written than any that has preceeded it (or proceeded it).

Pokemon isn't real. Ash's Johto team was bad because it was written horribly, not because Ash "caught bad Pokemon" or "trained his Pokemon badly". They just weren't written as genuine threats. DP was an actual well-written saga, thus why Ash/Paul is a better rivalry than Ash/Gary and Ash's Sinnoh team was well-developed and full of strong Pokemon.

So in summary, the reason you "have no problem" with Charizard's dominance is because of how vastly superior Diamond and Pearl was to Johto. You have no problem with Charizard taking the spotlight from a selection of badly-written Pokemon, but you have a problem with Infernape - the most well-written of any Pokemon Ash owns - taking the spotlight from a selection of 5 decently written Pokemon.

If that makes sense to anyone else but me, I think that explains your problem. Your problem is a reasonable one, but if you think about it, it actually proves Ash vs. Paul to be a great battle and one of the best ever; you have no problem with Charizard dominating because the Johto Pokemon sucked. But you have a problem with the magnificent Infernape dominating because the Sinnoh Pokemon didn't. So on the whole, Ash fielded a great team, and his opponent was the best ever.

(Note: I'm not saying any Pokemon of Ash's that is weak is instantly "badly-written", but that is the case for a great deal of his weak Pokemon)

 

[1rkhachatryan]

Yeah, I agree with most of what you said for sure. Just think that Ash is definitely a talented trainer on his own, and was even during the battle with Gary. In many ways, though, Ash vs. Paul was the pinnacle of Ash's intelligence and strength as a trainer in like 15 years of Pokemon. Paul was Ash's most formidable opponent that he actually ended up beating - obviously someone like Tobias or someone is more formidable.



Because that's not really very interesting imo. It's nice to see proof that Ash is a strong trainer, but that's implicit in the fact he is an Orange League Champion and has multiple good performances in league tournaments.

That said, I could get on board with something like Ash vs. Casey (which Charizard won without even commanding a move >_>), but only if it was to lead to an interesting mentor-student relationship. Just a 6-on-6 that Ash wins 6-0, though? Nah, not for me.



But, again, Ash/Gary "focused too much on any one Pokemon" too. Charizard, Blastoise had just as much coverage as Infernape, Drapion.

Oh and hey, look at that. Ash's Johto team was bad. And do you know why Ash's Johto team was bad? Because of bad writing. The Sinnoh team was written far more effectively. Just like the whole saga was better written than any that has preceeded it (or proceeded it).

Pokemon isn't real. Ash's Johto team was bad because it was written horribly, not because Ash "caught bad Pokemon" or "trained his Pokemon badly". They just weren't written as genuine threats. DP was an actual well-written saga, thus why Ash/Paul is a better rivalry than Ash/Gary and Ash's Sinnoh team was well-developed and full of strong Pokemon.

So in summary, the reason you "have no problem" with Charizard's dominance is because of how vastly superior Diamond and Pearl was to Johto. You have no problem with Charizard taking the spotlight from a selection of badly-written Pokemon, but you have a problem with Infernape - the most well-written of any Pokemon Ash owns - taking the spotlight from a selection of 5 decently written Pokemon.

If that makes sense to anyone else but me, I think that explains your problem. Your problem is a reasonable one, but if you think about it, it actually proves Ash vs. Paul to be a great battle and one of the best ever; you have no problem with Charizard dominating because the Johto Pokemon sucked. But you have a problem with the magnificent Infernape dominating because the Sinnoh Pokemon didn't. So on the whole, Ash fielded a great team, and his opponent was the best ever.

(Note: I'm not saying any Pokemon of Ash's that is weak is instantly "badly-written", but that is the case for a great deal of his weak Pokemon)

Lmfao that you beleive Infernape is Ash's best written pokemon ever. Infernape was shown to not be able to beat any big powerhouse without Blaze, that is not well written.
And just cuz he was used in almost every battle doesn't mean he was well written either.

 

[LizardonX]

Hey give captain infalconape some credit. He took out a ninjask and agggron by Mach punching them.

 

[1rkhachatryan]

Hey give captain infalconape some credit. He took out a ninjask and agggron by Mach punching them.

Lol Aggron got pwned and all it did before that was Screech. Likewise Jolteon got pwned without doing much and Ninjask was an ultra troll.

 

[Hilda]

This topic is about a theoretical meeting, there is no need for aggravation by talking about what should of happened in their last fight.

 

[AceDetective]

This topic is about a theoretical meeting, there is no need for aggravation by talking about what should of happened in their last fight.

Did you even read the first post? This thread is designed to discuss there last battle and compare it to how we believe Trips will go

 

[Hilda]

Did you even read the first post? This thread is designed to discuss there last battle and compare it to how we believe Trips will go

.
Yeah, but it doesn't say 'Discuss how stupid it was for Infernape to take down 3 Pokemon'. There is nothing wrong with what I said.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Lmfao that you beleive Infernape is Ash's best written pokemon ever. Infernape was shown to not be able to beat any big powerhouse without Blaze, that is not well written.
And just cuz he was used in almost every battle doesn't mean he was well written either.

Instead of "lmao"ing, perhaps you might care to venture one that was better written? Which of Ash's Pokemon would you say was written better than Infernape? There literally hasn't been a story in the anime more interesting or emotionally satisfying than the 4-year build we got for Chimchar/Infernape.

It was completely in-character for Paul to abandon Chimchar when Chimchar wasn't living up to expectation. It was completely in-character for Ash to save the poor thing before it got thrown out into the wild again. It was completely in-character for Ash to train said Pokemon well. It was a perfect example of the Ash vs. Paul rivalry that Ash's training method could bring out power in a Pokemon that Paul's training method can not. The reverse is also true - I don't think some of Paul's Pokemon, like 'Vire, would have been as strong under Ash's tutelage - meaning Ash and Paul really are "opposite sides of the same coin" as I think Reggie said.

When I talk about well-written I talk about a Pokemon with great power, but understandable great power. Infernape being as strong as it was made sense in the storyline, with its desire to show up Paul giving it extra motivation, as well as the training Paul gave it toughening it up.

The Blaze thing is incorrect, because I'll note that Infernape beat seven Gym-owned Pokemon without Blaze, and one with (Luxray). He also beat Ursaring with it, as well as Ninjask and Aggron. Besides, the criticism makes no sense. I would have more of a case if I wanted to say that "Charizard can't win a big battle without Seismic Toss". It comes to the same thing, they are both battle abilities. I would never say that about Charizard, though, because Seismic Toss is like its signature, just like Blaze is Infernape's signature. It's something that differentiates Ash's Infernape from other Infernapes (like Flint's). I don't see how that should be seen as a problem. Blaze is an ability just like Pikachu's Static, Infernape just happens to have a more powerful one - which is fine, because like I said, it differentiates Ash's Infernape, gives it more character. And "more character" means - and this might come as a shock - that it is better written.

They clearly spent time and effort on getting the Infernape story just right. If every other Pokemon on Ash's team got the time and development they clearly spent on making Infernape a Pokemon you wanted to root for, the show would be tons better. It's a decent show, and I don't expect a kid's show to have such heavy development across the board, but it would be more emotionally and intellectually satisfying if they did with every main-cast Pokemon what they did with Infernape - spend time and effort to develop a unique character, story and background. It would cut down on filler too.

Yeah, but it doesn't say 'Discuss how stupid it was for Infernape to take down 3 Pokemon'. There is nothing wrong with what I said.

Eh, this is the go-to criticism for Ash vs. Paul, so I don't mind. When you talk about Ash vs. Paul it's always the same stuff: Infernape got unnecessary amounts of spotlight (I still believe this is justified by the Ash/Paul dichotomy essentially revolving around Chimchar/Infernape) and Paul changed his team (again, keeping the lake team would have been out of character). I've been arguing against this stuff for two years so I'm not against it getting brought out again.

 

[LizardonX]

What should have happemed was ash taking out al 6 of Paul's pokemon with just chimchar. Then laugh in his face and call him pathetic. Then go on to be whipped by trolbias next round. The writers seem to have an unfair bias towards BF may and pail in particular. They take great pains to make sure neither of them ever looks weak without lots of backup to prove otherwise. Like lake vacuity after Brandon or beating dew before suelidad.

 

[1rkhachatryan]

Instead of "lmao"ing, perhaps you might care to venture one that was better written? Which of Ash's Pokemon would you say was written better than Infernape? There literally hasn't been a story in the anime more interesting or emotionally satisfying than the 4-year build we got for Chimchar/Infernape.

It was completely in-character for Paul to abandon Chimchar when Chimchar wasn't living up to expectation. It was completely in-character for Ash to save the poor thing before it got thrown out into the wild again. It was completely in-character for Ash to train said Pokemon well. It was a perfect example of the Ash vs. Paul rivalry that Ash's training method could bring out power in a Pokemon that Paul's training method can not. The reverse is also true - I don't think some of Paul's Pokemon, like 'Vire, would have been as strong under Ash's tutelage - meaning Ash and Paul really are "opposite sides of the same coin" as I think Reggie said.

When I talk about well-written I talk about a Pokemon with great power, but understandable great power. Infernape being as strong as it was made sense in the storyline, with its desire to show up Paul giving it extra motivation, as well as the training Paul gave it toughening it up.

The Blaze thing is incorrect, because I'll note that Infernape beat seven Gym-owned Pokemon without Blaze, and one with (Luxray). He also beat Ursaring with it, as well as Ninjask and Aggron. Besides, the criticism makes no sense. I would have more of a case if I wanted to say that "Charizard can't win a big battle without Seismic Toss". It comes to the same thing, they are both battle abilities. I would never say that about Charizard, though, because Seismic Toss is like its signature, just like Blaze is Infernape's signature. It's something that differentiates Ash's Infernape from other Infernapes (like Flint's). I don't see how that should be seen as a problem. Blaze is an ability just like Pikachu's Static, Infernape just happens to have a more powerful one - which is fine, because like I said, it differentiates Ash's Infernape, gives it more character. And "more character" means - and this might come as a shock - that it is better written.

They clearly spent time and effort on getting the Infernape story just right. If every other Pokemon on Ash's team got the time and development they clearly spent on making Infernape a Pokemon you wanted to root for, the show would be tons better. It's a decent show, and I don't expect a kid's show to have such heavy development across the board, but it would be more emotionally and intellectually satisfying if they did with every main-cast Pokemon what they did with Infernape - spend time and effort to develop a unique character, story and background. It would cut down on filler too.



Eh, this is the go-to criticism for Ash vs. Paul, so I don't mind. When you talk about Ash vs. Paul it's always the same stuff: Infernape got unnecessary amounts of spotlight (I still believe this is justified by the Ash/Paul dichotomy essentially revolving around Chimchar/Infernape) and Paul changed his team (again, keeping the lake team would have been out of character). I've been arguing against this stuff for two years so I'm not against it getting brought out again.

Emotionally satisfying?? Please tell me how Ash using him in every gym after he was caught(except Wake for obvious reasons) was necessary?? I will admit that Chimchar is very powerful because he never depended on Blaze. All his battles were won through hard work(except for the one time he went blaze crazy).The parts of Chimchar's story line were handled great. Once he evolved into Infernape things went downhill in my opinion. Perfecting Blaze after one try, literally depending on it for all of his battles or one shooting the other ones. He never really had a hart fought battle that he won without Blaze. The same can't be said for Pikachu or Charizard because they have. And winning with a move is not the same thing as winning with an ability. Charizard has a signature move(kind of like Bulbasaur and Solarbeam, or the rat and Thunderbolt). That is one of his moves. Using an ability like Blaze once in awhile is something I would have no problem with. Look at Sceptile for an example, hell look at Pikachu. The point is that in most of those gym matches, it was just Chimchar getting wins for the sake of wins, there wasn't a lot of development.

And I'm specifically referring to Infernape when I say this not Chimchar or Monferno. I think Chimchar was handled great even if I think it should of been used a lot less.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Emotionally satisfying?? Please tell me how Ash using him in every gym after he was caught(except Wake for obvious reasons) was necessary?? I will admit that Chimchar is very powerful because he never depended on Blaze. All his battles were won through hard work(except for the one time he went blaze crazy).The parts of Chimchar's story line were handled great. Once he evolved into Infernape things went downhill in my opinion. Perfecting Blaze after one try, literally depending on it for all of his battles or one shooting the other ones. He never really had a hart fought battle that he won without Blaze. The same can't be said for Pikachu or Charizard because they have. And winning with a move is not the same thing as winning with an ability. Charizard has a signature move(kind of like Bulbasaur and Solarbeam, or the rat and Thunderbolt). That is one of his moves. Using an ability like Blaze once in awhile is something I would have no problem with. Look at Sceptile for an example, hell look at Pikachu. The point is that in most of those gym matches, it was just Chimchar getting wins for the sake of wins, there wasn't a lot of development.

And I'm specifically referring to Infernape when I say this not Chimchar or Monferno. I think Chimchar was handled great even if I think it should of been used a lot less.

I don't think Chimchar/Infernape needed to star in all those gyms, but I also feel that if they think they needed to make Chimchar/Infernape look as strong as possible then it's not bad. But yeah, if it wasn't for the fact that he mastered Blaze there, I would say he certainly didn't need to star against Volkner. But meh, someone had to get those wins. And I'd rather Ash use Chimchar against Byron and Candice than use stuff that DIDN'T have a blatant type advantage, and if they wanted Chimchar to look strong they can't have him losing to stuff like that, I would say.

Your post is absolutely full of holes and contradictions and such but I'll do my best:

Every single major 1-on-1 battle that Charizard has won since it started obeying Ash (and one before) was won with Seismic Toss. That guy's Poliwrath. Drake's Electabuzz. Blaine's Magmar. Gary's Blastoise. Clair's Dragonair. Noland's Articuno. Falkner's Pidgeot. It's Charizard's big, match-winning move that Ash uses to end things. This is EXACTLY the same as Ash making use of Infernape's ability, Blaze, to get wins. It is EXACTLY the same as Ash telling Pikachu to make contact with Norman's Slakoth to paralyze it with Static. There is no difference, no issue, no problem. Infernape has a powerful Blaze and Ash uses it. Your complaint about Infernape has to apply to Charizard too or else you are being hypocritical. Your cries of "but an ability isn't the SAME!!!" mean nothing.

You also seem to fall into the rather strange trap of thinking that Infernape and Chimchar should be considered differently. This is wrong - they are ONE entity, one character, that underwent physical development as well as character development. I don't see why you feel the need to separate the two.

Also, Infernape had two battles once it became an Infernape. Two. It evolved quite late into the saga when there was only a gym battle and the league to go. In that time it beat Jolteon with Mach Punch, needed Blaze to beat Luxray (where it MASTERED Blaze for the first time) and used Blaze to beat Electivire after beating Ninjask and Aggron (which I believe Ash was counting on anyway). I don't think you have much scope to criticise it the way you're doing and, like I said, Charizard has been using Seismic Toss to win its major battles since the 90s. I don't criticise the Zard for it, however, because that would be dumb.

 

[nuzamaki90]

Ash's rivalry with Gary was the best.

Ash's rival battles against Paul were the best.

Ash's rivalry and rival battles with Trip are the best at being the worst.

 

[Caseydia]

Yeah, I agree with most of what you said for sure. Just think that Ash is definitely a talented trainer on his own, and was even during the battle with Gary.

Why can't stuff like this be said about Ash all the time? I agree that the writing for him as gone down. But he still is a genius in battles whether hs loses them or not. He's done well and the writers know it.

 

[Lorde]

To be honest, I never cared for Ash and Paul's final battle. It was hyped to be the best battle of all time, but I wasn't impressed. At least Ash and Trip's upcoming battle hasn't been hyped that much (not yet, anyway). Maybe it'll turn out to be good. I certainly hope so, because there have been only a handful of good battles in BW so far in my opinion.

 

[LizardonX]

Why can't stuff like this be said about Ash all the time? I agree that the writing for him as gone down. But he still is a genius in battles whether hs loses them or not. He's done well and the writers know it.

Trollbias is the writers saying no matter what we will never let Ash win a league. Ever, it doesn't matter what we have to do he will be knocked out.

 

[1rkhachatryan]

To be honest, I never cared for Ash and Paul's final battle. It was hyped to be the best battle of all time, but I wasn't impressed. At least Ash and Trip's upcoming battle hasn't been hyped that much (not yet, anyway). Maybe it'll turn out to be good. I certainly hope so, because there have been only a handful of good battles in BW so far in my opinion.

This lol. Would of been much better if the wins were redisributed.

 

[OceanWaterOtter]

Paul beat Ash so many times up until that point. Why does the rivalry end when Ash finally gets one stupid win?

 

[AceDetective]

Paul beat Ash so many times up until that point. Why does the rivalry end when Ash finally gets one stupid win?

because that was the most important battle. That was the one that meant the most.

Plus they both went their seperate ways after the league, hard to continue a rivalry if there not competing for the same goal

 

[1rkhachatryan]

Paul beat Ash so many times up until that point. Why does the rivalry end when Ash finally gets one stupid win?

Cuz the writers feel that total pwning is a rivalry when a rivals is usually between two semi equal people.