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Ash Vs the Elite 4

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
If Ash was to use GPICSS I can see him powering through some of the easier E4 members. Against trainers like Flint or Drake he might be able to take a couple Pokemon out but he won't come close to winning. He lacks the strategy and mindset to out-duel the E4 and will eventually slip up and get taken advantage of.

Where does this concept of some Elite four being weaker than others even come from? They've all proven them selves to be some of the most powerful trainers in the world. If there's a difference in their skill level, it's marginal at best.

Ash has dominated a Champion's Pokemon on screen, by a remarkable margin:

[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/VC0eEMY.jpg[/IMG300]

I just rewatched the battle to make sure. It got one good hit in, the rest of that battle the two were evenly matched, and that's not even accounting for the fact that Diantha was obviously holding back, as she was trying to test Ash and Greninja. I don't think that qualifies as "dominating."

It was holding back, but some clear indications in the episode shows that Diantha was feeling the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir. So one thing is clear that Ash-Greninja (in its Water-veil form) also posed a threat to a non-Mega Evolved Champion Ace. So, in full form, I think it can decisively take out an E4 ace.

Here's the thing, as much of a power boost as Mega Evolution gives, each Pokémon still has its own unique power level. I think it's unfair to say that just because Ash-Greninja could go toe-to-toe with non-Mega Gardevoir that it could do the same with, let's say, Cynthia's Garchomp or Lance's Dragonite. It seems more than likely that if Diantha were to use her Mega Gardevoir against Cynthia's non-Mega Garchomp, the two would probably be extremely evenly matched. Mega Evolution alone does is not an indicator of strength. Therefore it is entirely possible that Diantha's non-Mega Gardevoir is much weaker than any other Champion, or even Elite Four Pokémon.


This is such a role-reversal. Normally I'm the one trying to assert how powerful of a trainer Ash is. How strange.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Where does this concept of some Elite four being weaker than others even come from? They've all proven them selves to be some of the most powerful trainers in the world. If there's a difference in their skill level, it's marginal at best.
No that's wrong. Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted by Cynthia's Garchomp while Flint's Infernape did better. There is a difference between different E4 members.



I just rewatched the battle to make sure. It got one good hit in, the rest of that battle the two were evenly matched, and that's not even accounting for the fact that Diantha was obviously holding back, as she was trying to test Ash and Greninja. I don't think that qualifies as "dominating."
Going toe to toe for a long time says it all. No E4 ace has managed to do it against a Champion's Pokemon so far. Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted, Flint's Infernape put up a half-decent fight before losing, Wikstrom's Mega Scizor got destroyed by Diantha's Mega Gardevoir. Ash-Greninja did way better. And the last Water Shuriken clearly overpowered the Shadow Ball, so that obviously classifies as dominating. Diantha was holding back, but the fact that she felt the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir against Ash-Greninja's Water-veil form shows that in full-form, Ash-Greninja can obviously take on at least non-Mega Evolved Gardevoir.



Here's the thing, as much of a power boost as Mega Evolution gives, each Pokémon still has its own unique power level. I think it's unfair to say that just because Ash-Greninja could go toe-to-toe with non-Mega Gardevoir that it could do the same with, let's say, Cynthia's Garchomp or Lance's Dragonite. It seems more than likely that if Diantha were to use her Mega Gardevoir against Cynthia's non-Mega Garchomp, the two would probably be extremely evenly matched. Mega Evolution alone does is not an indicator of strength. Therefore it is entirely possible that Diantha's non-Mega Gardevoir is much weaker than any other Champion, or even Elite Four Pokémon.
Diantha is a Champion, how can her ace without Mega Evolution be weaker than E4 members? That's nonsense. We can't assume that Champions like Cynthia and Lance are so much superior than Steven and Diantha that their aces would be stronger than Mega Evolved Champion Aces of Steven and Diantha. They are all regional Champions, their can't be that much of a disparity. And before you say Diantha isn't a strong Champion, let me show you-
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/3Q8Fcxw.jpg[/IMG300]

One-shotted Wikstrom' Mega Scizor with a Gamma-ray Moonblast.
 
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Darthlord7

The Smug Pikachu
In a full battle against an Elite Four member Ash stands no chance. I don't think this is even a question.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
In a full battle against an Elite Four member Ash stands no chance. I don't think this is even a question.

Really? Even with GPCISS? You have to remember that E4 non-aces are not as powerful as E4 aces.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Neither GPCISS Pokemon have equal power between them.

Yeah, so? GPC definitely has the potential to beat E4 Aces(I believe G would obviously beat E4 aces). IS with Blaze and Overgrow activated can beat E4 non-aces. The last S is weaker than E4 non-aces, but the combined firepower of GPC can make it up.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
Yeah, so? GPC definitely has the potential to beat E4 Aces(I believe G would obviously beat E4 aces). IS with Blaze and Overgrow activated can beat E4 non-aces. The last S is weaker than E4 non-aces, but the combined firepower of GPC can make it up.

The only one of those three we've definitively seen contend with anything on that level is Greninja, and Greninja only did so because he gained a lot of momentum that he and Ash never would have gotten had Diantha been going seriously from the beginning. I get that Greninja even putting up a fight is impressive, but we're wildly overstating how significant an accomplishment that is. That in a completely serious battle Ash Greninja is closer to Mega Sceptile's level and shy of Mega Charizard's doesn't exactly mesh up with this idea that Ash Greninja can lead the charge in a serious E4 battle.

How close Charizard and Pikachu can come to doing the same is a matter of speculation, but even if we assume they can pull off much the same thing I doubt it'd be enough.

Don't get me wrong; I think Ash would be able to fight at least some member of the E4 in a battle that wouldn't be a total curb stomp in their favour. But I don't think he can win yet.
 

Darthlord7

The Smug Pikachu
Excluding GPC which might solo a Pokemon will quickly go down against the next Pokemon. You should also take into account the fact that abilities like Overgrow and Blaze can be used by the E4 member's Pokemon as well (well Blaze not like this). Snorlax might survive lots of hits since it's the most durable Pokemon Ash has but still won't do much in the offence.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
The only one of those three we've definitively seen contend with anything on that level is Greninja, and Greninja only did so because he gained a lot of momentum that he and Ash never would have gotten had Diantha been going seriously from the beginning. I get that Greninja even putting up a fight is impressive, but we're wildly overstating how significant an accomplishment that is. That in a completely serious battle Ash Greninja is closer to Mega Sceptile's level and shy of Mega Charizard's doesn't exactly mesh up with this idea that Ash Greninja can lead the charge in a serious E4 battle.
As I said before, Diantha was holding back, but she was clearly pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir against Ash-Greninja's Water-veil form, so full-form Ash-Greninja is definitely a significant threat to Base Gardevoir.

I rate Mega Sceptile on E4 ace level and this is not overstating. Sawyer's Sceptile in the League was a beast even without Mega Evolution, it dispatched Pikachu in its base form, and though Pikachu was tired, Sceptile clearly looked the better Pokemon there (otherwise Pikachu would've gotten a few hits before falling). Sceptile was a solid Tier 1 without Mega Evolution and so with Mega Evolution, it will be potentially E4 level.

Mega Charizard X is decesively above E4 Mega level- it beat Mega Houndoom despite being exhausted after battling 9 Megas in a row. In the Kalos League, it possibly got stronger than that and yet Ash-Greninja fared really well against it, lasting longer than Mega Houndoom and pushing it to the point of stumbling. Alain stated that fight took him to a new level- which suggests that Ash-Greninja is at least on the level of Mega Houndoom or higher, as Alain has already reached a level by defeating Malva beforehand. Considering the Gardevoir feat along with this, Ash-Greninja can definitely lead the charge in an E4 battle.
How close Charizard and Pikachu can come in doing the same is a matter of speculation but even if we assume they pull of much the same thing I doubt it'll be enough
Charizard has gotten stronger since it beat Articuno and Pikachu arguably pulled of a better feat in making Alain's Base Charizard momentarily kneel in a weakened state than when it drew against Latios.

I believe Ash can win against an E4 member with GPCISS in a full battle.

Excluding GPC which might solo a Pokemon will quickly go down against the next Pokemon. You should also take into account the fact that abilities like Overgrow and Blaze can be used by the E4 member's Pokemon as well (well Blaze not like this). Snorlax might survive lots of hits since it's the most durable Pokemon Ash has but still won't do much in the offence.

Snorlax I think can considerably damage an E4 non-ace before falling I'd say.
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
No that's wrong. Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted by Cynthia's Garchomp while Flint's Infernape did better. There is a difference between different E4 members.

Different battles, different Pokémon, different circumstances. Elite Four are at such a high level of skill and mastery that there's just no way there can be that much of a discrepancy in their power. Also, we have to remember the fact that from an out-of-universe perspective, the writers had to wrap up Lucian's battle with Cynthia quickly, while Flint's got an entire segment dedicated to it.

Going toe to toe for a long time says it all. No E4 ace has managed to do it against a Champion's Pokemon so far. Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted, Flint's Infernape put up a half-decent fight before losing, Wikstrom's Mega Scizor got destroyed by Diantha's Mega Gardevoir. Ash-Greninja did way better. And the last Water Shuriken clearly overpowered the Shadow Ball, so that obviously classifies as dominating. Diantha was holding back, but the fact that she felt the pressure are Mega Evolved Gardevoir against Ash-Greninja's Water-veil form shows that in full-form, Ash-Greninja can obviously take on at least non-Mega Evolved Gardevoir.

You can't use those battles with Elite Four members as examples, because a Champion would obviously not be holding back against an Elite Four. And just because Diantha stepped her game up and Mega Evolve, does not mean she started going all out. She likely was still holding back, just not as much as she was before she Mega Evolved Gardevoir.

Even if I concede that Greninja could defeat an Elite Four Pokémon, Ash-Greninja is easily Ash's most powerful Pokémon by a good margin, so maybe it could beat one Elite Four Pokémon. However, there's no way it could carry Ash through all six, it would certainly fall against the second. And once Ash's most powerful is out, he's not going to have any chance at all.

Diantha is a Champion, how can her ace without Mega Evolution be weaker than E4 members? That's nonsense. We can't assume that Champions like Cynthia and Lance are so much superior than Steven and Diantha that their aces would be stronger than Mega Evolved Champion Aces of Steven and Diantha. They are all regional Champions, their can't be that much of a disparity. And before you say Diantha isn't a strong Champion, let me show you-
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/3Q8Fcxw.jpg[/IMG300]

One-shotted Wikstrom' Mega Scizor with a Gamma-ray Moonblast.

It's not really that nonsensical if you think about it. Diantha most likely rose to her rank as Champion because she Mega Evolved her Gardevoir. She would have Mega Evolved it in every major battle, so it would be its power as a Mega Pokémon that got Diantha where she is, not its power as a regular Gardevoir. And from that, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that Mega Gardevoir is on the same level as other Champion Pokémon, but not necessarily while in its regular form. I'm not saying that Lance and Cynthia are better than Diantha and Steven, I'm just saying there the same, as Diantha's and Steven's most powerful Pokémon are their Megas, not their base forms.

To say it in a different way, I'm essentially saying that it's probably better to think of Mega Evolutions as the ace Pokémon, not the regular form.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Different battles, different Pokémon, different circumstances. Elite Four are at such a high level of skill and mastery that there's just no way there can be that much of a discrepancy in their power. Also, we have to remember the fact that from an out-of-universe perspective, the writers had to wrap up Lucian's battle with Cynthia quickly, while Flint's got an entire segment dedicated to it.
You can try to justify it by out-of-universe-prespective reasons as much as you want, by my example proves all E4 members are not equal. Some E4 members like Flint are exceptionally strong, while some E4 members like Aaron and Lucian aren't that strong.



You can't use those battles with Elite Four members as examples, because a Champion would obviously not be holding back against an Elite Four. And just because Diantha stepped her game up and Mega Evolve, does not mean she started going all out. She likely was still holding back, just not as much as she was before she Mega Evolved Gardevoir.
My point is that the fact that Diantha was feeling the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir suggests that even is its Water-veil form, Ash-Greninja posed a significant threat to Base Gardevoir, and so in full-form, it can definitely take on Base Gardevoir at least. And Diantha is a Champion, so her Gardevoir without Mega Evolution will be obviously stronger than E4 Aces. And if you look clearly, Diantha wasn't completely holding back in the last Shadow Ball- it was a huge one which was overpowered by Water Shuriken.

Even if I concede that Greninja could defeat an Elite Four Pokémon, Ash-Greninja is easily Ash's most powerful Pokémon by a good margin, so maybe it could beat one Elite Four Pokémon. However, there's no way it could carry Ash through all six, it would certainly fall against the second. And once Ash's most powerful is out, he's not going to have any chance at all.
Look, you're overestimating the E4 too much. Remember that E4 non-aces are not as powerful as E4 aces. Do you really think that Cynthia's Gastrodon and Glaceon are as powerful as her Garchomp? Champion's and Elite Four rely mostly on their aces, there is no way that their non-aces are as powerful as their aces. If Ash-Greninja takes out the ace of an E4, the rest of GPCISS can take on the E4 non-aces.



It's not really that nonsensical if you think about it. Diantha most likely rose to her rank as Champion because she Mega Evolved her Gardevoir. She would have Mega Evolved it in every major battle, so it would be its power as a Mega Pokémon that got Diantha where she is, not its power as a regular Gardevoir. And from that, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that Mega Gardevoir is on the same level as other Champion Pokémon, but not necessarily while in its regular form. I'm not saying that Lance and Cynthia are better than Diantha and Steven, I'm just saying there the same, as Diantha's and Steven's most powerful Pokémon are their Megas, not their base forms.

To say it in a different way, I'm essentially saying that it's probably better to think of Mega Evolutions as the ace Pokémon, not the regular form.
I don't think so. I believe Diantha and Steven's aces are as powerful as the aces of the other Champions and when they Mega Evolve then their aces are in a different level than the other Champions. It's reasonable to think that there is a parity between all regional Champions, and so, without Mega Evolution, all of their aces are equal.

Plus, Diantha's Gardevoir has demonstrated that it's incredibly powerful without Mega Evolution. Gardevoir destroyed Magnus's Absol without Mega Evolving, and Magnus was the previous Kalos League Champion. Whereas, remember that even Torterra even managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon. And Gardevoir was also effortlessly besting Pikachu without Mega Evolution. Yeah, so there is conclusive evidence that Diantha's Gardevoir is above E4 aces even without Mega Evolution.
 
If you think about it, an E4 ace like Flint's infernape easily sweep through (and one shot) decent Pokemon like Buizel and Infernape. When Ash's infernape battled a weaker Pokemon (Aggron + Ninjask) he took a lot of damage and became really tired.

I think AG can take the E4 ace, Charizard can take out one non-ace, Pikachu can go toe to toe with another non-ace but after that Infernale, Snorlax and Sceptile will be easily taken out.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
I don't think so. I believe Diantha and Steven's aces are as powerful as the aces of the other Champions and when they Mega Evolve then their aces are in a different level than the other Champions. It's reasonable to think that there is a parity between all regional Champions, and so, without Mega Evolution, all of their aces are equal.

Plus, Diantha's Gardevoir has demonstrated that it's incredibly powerful without Mega Evolution. Gardevoir destroyed Magnus's Absol without Mega Evolving, and Magnus was the previous Kalos League Champion. Whereas, remember that even Torterra even managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon. And Gardevoir was also effortlessly besting Pikachu without Mega Evolution. Yeah, so there is conclusive evidence that Diantha's Gardevoir is above E4 aces even without Mega Evolution.

Why is that reasonable? We know for a fact that Greninja would be nowhere near the level it's at were it not for Bond Phenomenon. Why can't Champions who got ahold of Mega Evolution and used it to give them an edge be the same way? It's not like it makes them weaker or lesser than other Champions (though apparently some seem to think that Mega Evolution is a sort of crutch that a real Champion shouldn't need to fall back on to keep their place at the top, for whatever reason); it just means they have different factors that contribute to why they're at that level.

That's not conclusive evidence of anything, especially when Pikachu and his fluctuating level of strength is what you're trying to use as a measuring stick. At most we can say that Gardevoir is definitely strong even without Mega Evolution, and that sort of goes without saying. One battle against a Pikachu who around the same time was struggling with Korrina's Lucario, and another where it was toying around with Greninja, doesn't give us much of a real idea of base Gardevoir's true strength. We don't even know beyond a shred of doubt how a serious battle between base Gardevoir and Ash Greninja would have ended, assuming the former was completely serious and the latter was fully mastered.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
If you think about it, an E4 ace like Flint's infernape easily sweep through (and one shot) decent Pokemon like Buizel and Infernape. When Ash's infernape battled a weaker Pokemon (Aggron + Ninjask) he took a lot of damage and became really tired.


I think AG can take the E4 ace, Charizard can take out one non-ace, Pikachu can go toe to toe with another non-ace but after that Infernale, Snorlax and Sceptile will be easily taken out.
Um, if Infernape's Blaze activates and Sceptile's Overgrow activates, then I think they can take out E4 non-aces.



Why is that reasonable? We know for a fact that Greninja would be nowhere near the level it's at were it not for Bond Phenomenon. Why can't Champions who got ahold of Mega Evolution and used it to give them an edge be the same way? It's not like it makes them weaker or lesser than other Champions (though apparently some seem to think that Mega Evolution is a sort of crutch that a real Champion shouldn't need to fall back on to keep their place at the top, for whatever reason); it just means they have different factors that contribute to why they're at that level.
Except Diantha is a Champion. Do you really think that a Champion would need to have Mega Form as a crutch? It's more reasonable to assume that Steven and Diantha are as much competent without Mega Evolution and using Mega Evolution, they reach an even higher level of power.

That's not conclusive evidence of anything, especially when Pikachu and his fluctuating level of strength is what you're trying to use as a measuring stick. At most we can say that Gardevoir is definitely strong even without Mega Evolution, and that sort of goes without saying. One battle against a Pikachu who around the same time was struggling with Korrina's Lucario, and another where it was toying around with Greninja, doesn't give us much of a real idea of base Gardevoir's true strength. We don't even know beyond a shred of doubt how a serious battle between base Gardevoir and Ash Greninja would have ended, assuming the former was completely serious and the latter was fully mastered.

Why did you ignore the instance of wrecking Magnus's Absol I mentioned? Magnus was the previous Kalos League Champion. And I would consider Pikachu and Base Greninja to be two decent Pokemon at least and toying with them shows Gardevoir's strength. And some clear evidences in the episode shows that Diantha's Gardevoir was overwhelmed to the point by Water-veil Ash-Greninja where Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir. So I will obviously say full-form Ash-Greninja can take on Diantha's Base Gardevoir.
 
I don't think blaze is enough to save Infernape, he has to be destroying Aggron and Ninjask as easily as Altaria wrecking Grovyle / Shellgon wrecking Pikachu to be E4 level.

Also using mega isn't a crutch, because everyone in Kalos has megas so it's more like all the E4s are stronger as opposed to Diantha relying on ME to become champion.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
I don't think blaze is enough to save Infernape, he has to be destroying Aggron and Ninjask as easily as Altaria wrecking Grovyle / Shellgon wrecking Pikachu to be E4 level.
True, but Blaze takes Infernape's power to a different level. Ash-Greninja has proved that he can effortlessly wreck decent Pokemon though, like Heidayu's Bisharp, Celosia's Manectric/Byrony's Liepard, Sawyer's Base Sceptile etc.

Also using mega isn't a crutch, because everyone in Kalos has megas so it's more like all the E4s are stronger as opposed to Diantha relying on ME to become champion.
Exactly, just because one E4/Champion uses Mega Evolution more doesn't mean that their base forms are weaker, because the strength of their Mega Evolved Pokemon are also proportionate to their base form.
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
You can try to justify it by out-of-universe-prespective reasons as much as you want, by my example proves all E4 members are not equal. Some E4 members like Flint are exceptionally strong, while some E4 members like Aaron and Lucian aren't that strong.

I'll admit the out-of-universe thing wasn't the best reason, but that doesn't change the fact that those were still two completely different battles in two completely different circumstances. Cynthia could have had a different strategy, or maybe Flint was just better prepared. That doesn't automatically mean that Flint is better though.

Also, it's worth mentioning, I just went back and rewatched the Cynthia vs. Lucian battle, and there's actually no reason to believe that the battle is just beginning at the point we come in. It easily could have already been raging.

My point is that the fact that Diantha was feeling the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir suggests that even is its Water-veil form, Ash-Greninja posed a significant threat to Base Gardevoir, and so in full-form, it can definitely take on Base Gardevoir at least. And Diantha is a Champion, so her Gardevoir without Mega Evolution will be obviously stronger than E4 Aces. And if you look clearly, Diantha wasn't completely holding back in the last Shadow Ball- it was a huge one which was overpowered by Water Shuriken.

And my point is that just because she Mega Evolved, doesn't mean she automatically started using her full power. Since she started the battle going easy, it stands to reason that when she stepped things up, she didn't do it all the way, only just enough to test Greninja's strength. I'm not denying that Greninja could take on normal Gardevoir, but that's not the point here. As for that Shadow Ball, you have no way of knowing if that was supposed to be full power or not.

Look, you're overestimating the E4 too much. Remember that E4 non-aces are not as powerful as E4 aces. Do you really think that Cynthia's Gastrodon and Glaceon are as powerful as her Garchomp? Champion's and Elite Four rely mostly on their aces, there is no way that their non-aces are as powerful as their aces. If Ash-Greninja takes out the ace of an E4, the rest of GPCISS can take on the E4 non-aces.

Well, I say you're underestimating Elite Four too much. Maybe their non-aces aren't as powerful as their aces, but that doesn't mean they're pushovers either. Given how skilled and powerful the Elite Four are, it wouldn't make sense for them to have one Pokémon that completely outclasses their other five. Their aces are the one's we see them use the most, that's why they're their aces, but that doesn't mean that they get that much less training, or are that much worse battlers.

I don't think so. I believe Diantha and Steven's aces are as powerful as the aces of the other Champions and when they Mega Evolve then their aces are in a different level than the other Champions. It's reasonable to think that there is a parity between all regional Champions, and so, without Mega Evolution, all of their aces are equal.

I agree that there is parity between Champions, and that parity is measured by the power of the Mega, not the base. Think about it this way. A trainer goes through their journey and they follow a "power curve," that is a path moving from weaker to stronger. Diantha and Gardevoir would have had a small jump on this path because of Mega Evolution. Because of this, Diantha would have reached Champion-level power sooner than a trainer not using Mega Evolution. Her Mega Gardevoir would be at the power of a Champion ace, but that doesn't mean her normal Gardevoir would be, because she would have used Mega Gardevoir in any serious battle. I'm not saying Mega Evolution is crutch, I'm simply pointing out that there's not really any reason for Diantha's Gardevoir to be as powerful as Cynthia's Garchomp without Mega Evolution.

Plus, Diantha's Gardevoir has demonstrated that it's incredibly powerful without Mega Evolution. Gardevoir destroyed Magnus's Absol without Mega Evolving, and Magnus was the previous Kalos League Champion. Whereas, remember that even Torterra even managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon. And Gardevoir was also effortlessly besting Pikachu without Mega Evolution. Yeah, so there is conclusive evidence that Diantha's Gardevoir is above E4 aces even without Mega Evolution.

I'm not saying that Gardevoir is weak without Mega Evolution, I'm just saying it may not be on the same level you're putting it on. Magnus may be a powerful trainer, but he did nothing to prove he was on Elite Four level. As for besting Pikachu, you must remember that Pikachu's strength fluctuates wildly. Pikachu was far from its strongest when it battled Gardevoir.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
I'll admit the out-of-universe thing wasn't the best reason, but that doesn't change the fact that those were still two completely different battles in two completely different circumstances. Cynthia could have had a different strategy, or maybe Flint was just better prepared. That doesn't automatically mean that Flint is better though.
Well, if Flint's ace Infernape puts up a better fight, then his ace is stronger than Lucian's ace Bronzong, so in that case we can probably come to the conclusion that Flint is better. Whether Flint was more prepared or not is just a matter of speculation.

Also, it's worth mentioning, I just went back and rewatched the Cynthia vs. Lucian battle, and there's actually no reason to believe that the battle is just beginning at the point we come in. It easily could have already been raging.
True, but the fact that the writers only bothered to show us Garchomp easily blocking a Flash Cannon and destroying Bronzong with Giga Impact probably implies that the battle was a curbstomp. Whereas, in Flint's case, we saw Infernape putting up a half-decent fight against fight and good exchanges of moves between Garchomp and Infernape.


And my point is that just because she Mega Evolved, doesn't mean she automatically started using her full power. Since she started the battle going easy, it stands to reason that when she stepped things up, she didn't do it all the way, only just enough to test Greninja's strength. I'm not denying that Greninja could take on normal Gardevoir, but that's not the point here. As for that Shadow Ball, you have no way of knowing if that was supposed to be full power or not.
I also agree Diantha didn't start going all-out after Mega Evolving, but just saying Diantha feeling the pressure and Mega Evolving her Gardevoir shows that she realised that she wouldn't be able to control the battle with Base Gardevoir, so she decided to Mega Evolve it. And notice that when Mega Gardevoir released Shadow Balls, Diantha wasn't commanding that intensely or that seriously. But just when Ash-Greninja reached it's full-form and fired that huge Water Shuriken, Diantha took a serious stance and commanded a Shadow Ball with a sense of desperation in her voice. And that Shadow Ball was a much bigger Shadow Ball than the others, created by combining multiple Shadow Balls, and was overpowered by Water Shuriken. So, Diantha didn't completely hold back in the last Shadow Ball.



Well, I say you're underestimating Elite Four too much. Maybe their non-aces aren't as powerful as their aces, but that doesn't mean they're pushovers either. Given how skilled and powerful the Elite Four are, it wouldn't make sense for them to have one Pokémon that completely outclasses their other five. Their aces are the one's we see them use the most, that's why they're their aces, but that doesn't mean that they get that much less training, or are that much worse battlers.
Well I'm just saying they are not on the same level as E4 aces, not that they aren't powerful. Champions and E4 members have given us an impression so far in the anime that are too heavily reliant on their aces and they overuse their aces too much. Remember Aaron's roaster of Pokemon. Were all of his Pokemon that strong? As far I remember, Jessie's Seviper managed to significantly damage Aaron's Drapion.



I agree that there is parity between Champions, and that parity is measured by the power of the Mega, not the base. Think about it this way. A trainer goes through their journey and they follow a "power curve," that is a path moving from weaker to stronger. Diantha and Gardevoir would have had a small jump on this path because of Mega Evolution. Because of this, Diantha would have reached Champion-level power sooner than a trainer not using Mega Evolution. Her Mega Gardevoir would be at the power of a Champion ace, but that doesn't mean her normal Gardevoir would be, because she would have used Mega Gardevoir in any serious battle. I'm not saying Mega Evolution is crutch, I'm simply pointing out that there's not really any reason for Diantha's Gardevoir to be as powerful as Cynthia's Garchomp without Mega Evolution.
Or it could be also the other way around. Maybe Diantha became a Champion with Base Gardevoir, and she(along with the Kalos E4) got Mega Evolution later on. The power of a Mega Evolved Pokemon is actually proportionate to the Pokemon's base form(without Mega Evolution).



I'm not saying that Gardevoir is weak without Mega Evolution, I'm just saying it may not be on the same level you're putting it on. Magnus may be a powerful trainer, but he did nothing to prove he was on Elite Four level. As for besting Pikachu, you must remember that Pikachu's strength fluctuates wildly. Pikachu was far from its strongest when it battled Gardevoir.

Magnus was a League Champion after all, so defeating his ace effortlessly is a significantly good feat. You have to also remember that the same Pikachu just wrecked Viola and Grant in Gym battles few episodes ago. And even in the Ash-Greninja vs Mega Gardevoir battle, Base Gardevoir was pretty much toying with Base Greninja before the Ash-Greninja transformation happened.
 
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DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
Why did you ignore the instance of wrecking Magnus's Absol I mentioned? Magnus was the previous Kalos League Champion. And I would consider Pikachu and Base Greninja to be two decent Pokemon at least and toying with them shows Gardevoir's strength. And some clear evidences in the episode shows that Diantha's Gardevoir was overwhelmed to the point by Water-veil Ash-Greninja where Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir. So I will obviously say full-form Ash-Greninja can take on Diantha's Base Gardevoir.

Was Magnus ever said to be the previous champion?

He onlw won a regional tournament but hsi batttle was onyl an exhibitonal oen and he didn't seemed that strong.

BTW beating CODs is not exactly a good reference for feats
 

Mrs. Oreo

Banned
I dunno, I don't think Ash would ever win against the E4 cuz each time he's faced one of them he's had a less than stellar team and that might never changed. :[
 
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