Water-veil Ash-Greninja's Cut collided with Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and pushes Gardevoir back creating a huge shockwave. Diantha says(in the subs)- Had that hit, we wouldn't have stood a chance.
Ash-Greninja goes for a Cut, Gardevoir tried to dodge it, but is out-sped and struck down.
Ash-Greninja's Double Team+Cut combo broke through Mega Gardevoir's Reflect and pushed Mega Gardevoir back.
Full-form Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken broke through Mega Gardevoir's massive Shadow Ball and send Mega Gardevoir flying back with bruises on its body.
See, there was quite some times in the battle when Ash and Greninja were gaining the upper hand and showing signs of domination. That's why I referred to it as dominating.
Once again, we must define domination differently.
Well there are some evidences in the episode that Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir. Just after Gardevoir fails to dodge Ash-Greninja's Cut and gets struck down, Ash-Greninja charges in with an Aerial Ace, and Diantha instantly Mega Evolves Gardevoir. After Gardevoir Mega Evolves, Serena says(in the subs) that They got Carnet-san backed into a corner! This indicates that Diantha was being backed into a corner and was forced to Mega Evolve Gardevoir.
I don't deny that Diantha was pressured into Mega Evolving. I agree that that is what happened. My point is that we have no way of knowing what that means comparatively in the grand scheme of things. sure it's impressive, but we don't know if it's Elite Four-level impressive.
Well, there is nothing too much conclusive, that's true, but one thing is true- that what Ash-Greninja did in that episode was pretty much groundbreaking for the show, no Pokemon in the anime has so far gone toe to toe with a Champion's ace for such a long time and momentarily overpowered it to gain the upper hand like that. Yes, it should be taken into account that Diantha was holding back, that was obviously a big factor, but the other factors like Diantha felt the pressure and Mega Evolved and she wasn't completely holding back in the last attack as I mentioned earlier obviously makes the feat much impressive. Am I saying that Ash-Greninja can beat a Champion's ace? No, but I believe that it can take out an E4 ace, based on that battle.
I completely agree that it was groundbreaking, and that battle is a big part of the reason why I think Ash-Greninja is Ash's strongest Pokémon, even though I'm a bigger fan of Charizard. My point is that we have no idea how much she was holding back once she Mega Evolved and how much momentum she had lost from holding back in the first place. The only way we could draw a definitive conclusion from that battle would be if Diantha were tohave gone all-out from the start. Anything less does not allow us to make any accurate comparisons due to the level of doubt.
Maybe, but their Aces are possibly on a different level due to more......what? Maybe more usage and experience?
Yes, obviously, training is a big factor, but at the same time, being more battle experienced and battle-tested also matters.
Let me put this a different way. I pointed out in my last post how we never see an Elite Four in a full battle, however, due to the nature of what an Elite Four is, it stands to reason that a majority of their battles are full six-on-six battles. If that really is the case, then that would have to mean that their aces are getting the same amount of battling in as any other of their Pokémon for the most part, it just so happens that we never see this, because the writers never show the complete battle, only the parts with their aces.
True, but even without their forms, they are still the strongest amongst the regional teams except for Pikachu.
That's much more debatable. Take away Blaze and Ash-Greninja, and the feats of Infernape and Greninja become much less pronounced. Maybe they are stronger than most of Ash's other Pokémon, but not to any significant degree, which is pretty much what I'm arguing is the case for Elite Four as well.
Maybe, but that's up to speculation. But we won't really expect an E4 ace level Pokemon to take a hard hit from a TR Pokemon.
Technically yes, it would be speculation. However, the point is that due the shady tactics of Team Rocket combined with the lack of its trainer, Drapion very well could have an excuse for its apparent weakness, and given how powerful the Elite Four are supposed to be, it's absurd to believe that Team Rocket could actually deal that much damage in real battle in fair circumstances.
It is actually hard to believe that Gardevoir is below the power range of an E4 ace and just has a Mega form as a crutch, especially when it's the Champion's ace. A Champion isn't actually expected to be like that to be honest.
The Mega isn't a crutch in this case. The Mega is the true power of that Pokémon. Think of it as Mega Gardevoir being Diantha's ace, not normal Gardevoir. There's nothing wrong about that. It's not a handicap, it's just the way it is.
For the sake of argument, let's say that a trainer becomes Champion using a Gabite as their ace. Are we going to say that this Champion is weaker than Cynthia because they;re using a Gabite instead of a Garchomp? Of course not, we're just going to assume that despite its lower stats, it has made up for it in other ways. This is essentially the same as what I'm asserting about Diantha, just in reverse. Cynthia and Garchomp are no weaker than Diantha and Mega Gardevoir, despite Garchomp being a stage below Mega Gardevoir.
And regarding Pikachu's power fluctuating, its debatable whether it happened at that point, plus remember that Pikachu got its win over Grant about 3-4 episodes ago.
Yes, but grant is the second gym leader of the region. The power curve is still extremely low at this point. Pikachu defeating Grant only means that Pikachu can defeat a weaker gym leader.
It couldn't even touch Gardevoir, whereas in in case of Flint's Infernape, it could do so. Torterra managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon as well. I can't see which feat of Diantha's Base Gardevoir contradicts that it's above E4 level.
But when Ash and Flint battled, it was around the time of Ash's eighth gym badge, so Pikachu was nearing the height of its strength, that's why it would have been able to lie a hit. The same goes for Torterra. It's a fully-evolved Pokémon closer to the end of Ash's journey in Sinnoh. Since Ash and Pikachu battled Diantha so early in their Kalos journey, Pikachu was weaker at this point than it was when it faced Flint or when Torterra faced Hippowdon.
Well if you accept that Ash-Greninja can go toe to toe with a E4 ace and possibly win, then it matters how you rate the E4 non-aces. Pikachu, Charizard, Infernape, Sceptile and Snorlax are no pushovers to go down easily to E4 non-aces. The last I admit is obviously weaker than an E4 non-ace, but can possibly put up a decent fight.
I do think Ash would put up a valiant fight. He certainly would be able to take out more than one of the Elite Four's Pokémon, but I still believe that in the end, he would lose Pokémon faster than the Elite Four would.