Ash Vs the Elite 4

[Pikachu52]

If you want to accept the premise that Ash-Greninja isn't E4 level, you have to accept that
1) Malva threw the match, which has zero evidence to back it up

I personally support that theory and there's no evidence to back it was legitimate either.

But that aside Malva's not really relevant to whether Ash-Greninja is E4 or not. Ash-Greninja never fought any of Malva's Pokémon. Simply because Alain's Charizard could beat Mega Houndoom doesn't mean Greninja could. Greninja lost to Charizard every time they battles and the leauge wasn't really close.

Even if I conceded the battle was legitimate and that Charizard X is indeed an E4 level Pokémon, that fact that Greninja failed to beat it three times with no prospect of that changing puts Greninja far below it's league. If Greninja had acutally beaten Charizard it would be a different story. All Malva's battle proves is that Alain can beat both her and Ash. I

Back to my real world example. A world class Tennis player could beat both another world class player and a school player, but that wouldn't put the other world class player and the school player on the same level. All it would show is that the first is capable of beating the other two.

2) Diantha mega evolved her Gardevoir for no reason, since if AG is below E4, he would be quite far below champion level. Unless Diantha is incapable of judging how strong her opponent is, there is no need to mega evolve (even Paul's Torterra was a complete joke compared to champion aces)

Mega evolving doesn't mean she believed it was necessary to defeat the opponent. She was probably just testing Greninja's strenght.

Diantha did not loose that battle. Landing a single hit, even if it seemed significant, doesn't put Greninja in the same league. Not when Ash lost to a regular gym-leader a few episodes later.

3) Alain saying that battling with AG "takes me to new heights" after beating Malva is not clear enough to be considered evidence, even though it sounds pretty obvious. I can't think of anything else it can mean.

Given "takes me to new heights" is a vacuous statement that doesn't really mean anything, it can't be used as evidence that Greninja is E4 level. Alain enjoyed the battle and complimented Ash for it - as has every trainer he's faced in every league. It's nothing more than a compliment. Ash has never actually beaten Alain despite battling three times and there's no reason to believe he actually could.

Not only that, plus there is clear evidence in XY&Z25 that Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir due to Base Gardevoir struggling against Ash-Greninja. And even after Mega Evolving, Ash-Greninja momentarily overpoweed Megs Gardevoir sending it flying back yelling in pain, significantly gaining the upper hand, which E4 aces like Flint's Infernape were unable to do against Cynthia's Garchomp.

Ash-Greninja getting one hit on Mega Gardeviour and Flint's Infernape not getting a hit on Garchomp aren't really comparable. They're two differnet sets of trainers under two very different sets of circumstances. What's to say Cynthia isn't a better trainer than Diantha.

I think you're overestimating the significance of Greninja sending Gardeviour flying back. It's not obvious that it was significant at all - earlier in the battle Gardeviour had sent Greninja into a tree and Greninja got up and continued to battle. Unless Greninja can acutally be said to have definitively won, there's no reason to assume it was capable of doing so.

Raichu Focus Blast also got sliced through by a Dragon Claw took Raichu out in a single hit. Focus Blast is a Fighting type move and Dragon Claw is a neutral move offensively against Electric types. Mega Sceptile's power was clearly evident.

And still made it to Top 8 of the League.

The dominance is surprising though. Infernape having a massive type-advantage over Aggron and Ninjask didn't show that dominance.

I don't deny that Mega Sceptile was on a different level to Raichu or that it was powerful. I'm denying Sceptile is E4 level.

Tierno making the top 8 isn't that impressive - That's only one rung higher than Ash got in the Indigo league and Kalos has significantly fewer participants - only 64 in total. Indigo had 256.

Yes Sawyer's Pokémon dominated Tierno's. But all that show is that Sawyer is a novice or maybe intermediate trainer who's better than another novice. That doesn't put either of them near the E4 level.

And it's not fair to compare Sceptile's battle to Infernape's from DP. Again that's an entirely different battle involving two differnet trainers and two different sets of Pokémon. Paul and Ash were more or less equally matched and using Pokémon with relatively the same strenght and ability. Sawyer was using his strongest Pokémon, with boost of Mega Evolution against a marginally weaker trainer.

Ash-Greninja went toe to toe with Mega Gardevoir for about 7-8 minutes, equally matching Mega Gardevoir's attacks, repeatedly pushing Mega Gardevoir back and ultimately sending Mega Gardevoir flying back overpowering it making it yell in pain. No Pokemon in the show has pushed a Champion's Pokemon that hard, not even E4 aces. It's an E4 level worthy feat without doubt. No one is saying that Ash-Greninja beat Mega Gardevoir, if it did so, it'd be Champion level. But since it pushed it so hard, it's E4 level without doubt, no E4 level Pokemon has gone that far against a Champion's Pokemon.

Ash-Greninja landing one hit on Mega Gardeviour is not an E4 worthy feat. An E4 worthy feat is winning the battle or coming close to doing so. And we haven't really seen any full E4 vs champion battles so there isn't really a fair point of comparison. And that assumes Diantha wasn't just testing Ash-Greninja in the first place.

Are you seriously suggesting that Paul Chimchar landing a Fire Spin on Cynthia's Garchomp which did basically nothing is comparable to Ash-Greninja bulldozing through Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and sending it flying back in pain knocking it down onto the ground?

Yes. The animation in BW and XY is noticeably more dramatic than pervious series. A lot more Pokémon are sent flying into things when they hadn't been before. Greninja had been thrown into a tree earlier in that battle, but still got up and continued to fight. Gardeviour got up and looked as if it were able to continue to fight so it's significant shouldn't be overplayed.

Diantha was surprised by the strenght of Greninja's attack, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have turned the battle around. Being able to keep pace with a champion Pokémon doens't make Greninja an E4 level Pokémon. Only a decisive win could do that.

 

[345ash-greninja]

I personally support that theory and there's no evidence to back it was legitimate either.

Since it was never mentioned, that can't be true.

But that aside Malva's not really relevant to whether Ash-Greninja is E4 or not. Ash-Greninja never fought any of Malva's Pokémon. Simply because Alain's Charizard could beat Mega Houndoom doesn't mean Greninja could. Greninja lost to Charizard every time they battles and the leauge wasn't really close.

I'd objectively say Ash-Greninja fought slightly better against Mega Houndoom considering Mega Charizard X was clearly more weakened in that case battling nine Megas beforehand (it clearly had battle marks on its body before battling Mega Houndoom).

Mega evolving doesn't mean she believed it was necessary to defeat the opponent. She was probably just testing Greninja's strenght.

There are clear evidences in that episode that Diantha was forced to Mega Evolve Gardevoir as Base Gardevoir was struggling to keep up. I've repeatedly mentioned it in my earlier posts beforehand.

Diantha did not loose that battle. Landing a single hit, even if it seemed significant, doesn't put Greninja in the same league. Not when Ash lost to a regular gym-leader a few episodes later.

Lol no one is saying that Ash-Greninja beat Mega Gardevoir. If that is so, then Ash-Greninja would be Champion level. But it pushed Mega Gardevoir really hard, it went toe to toe with Mega Gardevoir for 7-8 minutes, equally matching Mega Gardevoir's attacks, and ultimately overpowered Mega Gardevoir momentarily sending it flying back making it yell in pain. No Pokemon has pushed a Champion's Pokemon that hard, no one, no E4 aces. That feat of Ash-Greninja is flat-out better than E4 aces.

Given "takes me to new heights" is a vacuous statement that doesn't really mean anything, it can't be used as evidence that Greninja is E4 level. Alain enjoyed the battle and complimented Ash for it - as has every trainer he's faced in every league. It's nothing more than a compliment. Ash has never actually beaten Alain despite battling three times and there's no reason to believe he actually could.

Mega Charizard X beat Ash-Greninja two times. First time and third time. Alain was very excited in the second battle against Ash-Greninja, which was an undecided battle, when Ash-Greninja was dominating Mega Charizard X. He acted like he found a very strong opponent. After that he collected 8 badges in a very short amount of time just to battle Ash. When Ash-Greninja vs Mega Charizard X is about to begin in the League then he says, 'I've been waiting for this, now lift me to a higher level of battling', which suggests that he believed the defeating Ash-Greninja would even take him to an even higher level, after he had already reached a new level by beating Mega Houndoom.

Ash-Greninja getting one hit on Mega Gardeviour and Flint's Infernape not getting a hit on Garchomp aren't really comparable. They're two differnet sets of trainers under two very different sets of circumstances. What's to say Cynthia isn't a better trainer than Diantha.

Yes they are comparable. Ash-Greninja put out a flat out better performance than Flint's Infernape against a Champion's ace. Cynthia and Diantha are both regional Champions, so it's exactly reasonable that they are more or less around the same level. And Diantha also effortlessly wrecked Wikstrom's Mega Scizor(yes, it was a definite curbstomp). Ash-Greninja put on a way better performance than E4 aces and that obviously justifies it being on E4 level.

I think you're overestimating the significance of Greninja sending Gardeviour flying back. It's not obvious that it was significant at all - earlier in the battle Gardeviour had sent Greninja into a tree and Greninja got up and continued to battle. Unless Greninja can acutally be said to have definitively won, there's no reason to assume it was capable of doing so.

No, I'm not overestimating. No Pokemon in the show has pushed a Champion's Pokemon that hard and done that much damage, no E4 aces. That performance of Ash-Greninja is flat-out better than E4 aces no matter how much you try to deny it.

 

[Pikachu52]

Since it was never mentioned, that can't be true.

I'll give you that one - But it only puts Alain in the E4 level, not Ash. And only Charizard not his other Pokémon.

I'd objectively say Ash-Greninja fought slightly better against Mega Houndoom considering Mega Charizard X was clearly more weakened in that case battling nine Megas beforehand (it clearly had battle marks on its body before battling Mega Houndoom).

A loss is a loss is a loss though. Ash-Greninja ultimately didn't win regardless of how hard it fought. And since it never fought Mega Houndoom there's no comparison.

Taking down Houndoom after 9 Megas is Charizards achievement not Greninja's.

There are clear evidences in that episode that Diantha was forced to Mega Evolve Gardevoir as Base Gardevoir was struggling to keep up. I've repeatedly mentioned it in my earlier posts beforehand.

That isn't my interpretation of the episode.

Lol no one is saying that Ash-Greninja beat Mega Gardevoir. If that is so, then Ash-Greninja would be Champion level. But it pushed Mega Gardevoir really hard, it went toe to toe with Mega Gardevoir for 7-8 minutes, equally matching Mega Gardevoir's attacks, and ultimately overpowered Mega Gardevoir momentarily sending it flying back making it yell in pain. No Pokemon has pushed a Champion's Pokemon that hard, no one, no E4 aces. That feat of Ash-Greninja is flat-out better than E4 aces.

If your not winning your not in the same leauge. Brief moments of going toe to toe aren't sufficient nor is momentarily sending your opponent flying back. Although we've never seen a champion's Pokémon allegedly pushed that hard - I don't think it was that hard as flying backwards in a feature of most battles in this series - we haven't really seen enough Champion battles to have a reasonable note of reference.

Plus it only happened once - Ash-Greninja needs to be consistently able to do that in order to definitely in the E4 league.

Mega Charizard X beat Ash-Greninja two times. First time and third time. Alain was very excited in the second battle against Ash-Greninja, which was an undecided battle, when Ash-Greninja was dominating Mega Charizard X.

Doesn't change the fact that Greninja has still never beaten Charizard, which pins Charizards as the stronger Pokémon.

Greninja can't be said to be on the same level unless it has actually defeated the opponent.

He acted like he found a very strong opponent. After that he collected 8 badges in a very short amount of time just to battle Ash. When Ash-Greninja vs Mega Charizard X is about to begin in the League then he says, 'I've been waiting for this, now lift me to a higher level of battling', which suggests that he believed the defeating Ash-Greninja would even take him to an even higher level, after he had already reached a new level by beating Mega Houndoom.

That he believed defeating Ash-Greninja would take him to a higher level doesn't mean it did. That relies entirely on Alain's subjective view of what a higher level is. All that matters is quantifiable result. Alain consistently beat Ash so they're not on the same level.

Yes they are comparable. Ash-Greninja put out a flat out better performance than Flint's Infernape against a Champion's ace.

Based only on a few seconds of the battle when it's not clear what happened before. And it doesn't account for the other battles Cynthia has had as Champion.

Plus Cynthia and Caitlin and an equally matched fight in BW in which Cynthia did not appear to dominate.

Cynthia and Diantha are both regional Champions, so it's exactly reasonable that they are more or less around the same level. And Diantha also effortlessly wrecked Wikstrom's Mega Scizor(yes, it was a definite curbstomp). Ash-Greninja put on a way better performance than E4 aces and that obviously justifies it being on E4 level.

Yes Wikstrom was a curbstomp but it's the montage from the opening of a movie so I'm not sure what role it plays in cannon. Wikstrom could simply have just been unlucky that one time.

If so, so what. All Ash-Greninja did was land one hit. Pikachu landed two hits on Agahta's Gengar, Grovlye managed to keep up with Drake's Altria for a little while and both E4 members complimented Ash and in Agahta's case said he was doing well. Ash still didn't come close - the same is probably true of Diantha.

No, I'm not overestimating. No Pokemon in the show has pushed a Champion's Pokemon that hard and done that much damage, no E4 aces. That performance of Ash-Greninja is flat-out better than E4 aces no matter how much you try to deny it.

I don't believe it was either that hard or did a particularly large amount of damage. No more than Gardeviour did to Greninja when it threw him into the tree. Pokémon have been sent flying all the time in XY.

Yes, it's true we've not seen any Pokémon in the show do that before but we don't see that many champion battles. And as Bguy7 said in an earlier post we don't know how much Diantha was holding back or how much her holding back influenced that outcome. It's 7 minutes of toe to toe when the champion may well have been battling less than her full potential. It's also a one off which raises the possibility of a fluke. That doesn't give Greninja E4 status.

For Greninja to have E4 status, it has to be able to perform on par with E4 aces consistently. It didn't. It's next two battles were losses and after that it never fought a Pokémon of that level again. Without a rematch there's no way of telling.

 

[345ash-greninja]

A loss is a loss is a loss though. Ash-Greninja ultimately didn't win regardless of how hard it fought. And since it never fought Mega Houndoom there's no comparison.

Considering their battle against Mega Charizard X, a common opponent, Ash-Greninja didn't do worser than Mega Houndoom.

That isn't my interpretation of the episode.

How? Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir and that's pretty much evident.

If your not winning your not in the same leauge. Brief moments of going toe to toe aren't sufficient nor is momentarily sending your opponent flying back. Although we've never seen a champion's Pokémon allegedly pushed that hard - I don't think it was that hard as flying backwards in a feature of most battles in this series - we haven't really seen enough Champion battles to have a reasonable note of reference.

No one is denying that Ash-Greninja isn't on the same League, if it was on the same League, if it was so, it would be on Champion level. But since it significant damage, it should be definitely on E4 level. No Pokemon other than an E4 level opponent would be able to do that much damage and overpower a Champion's Pokemon like that, no E4 ace level opponent has done so against a Champion's Pokemon so far. Gardevoir clearly had bruises on its body after being hit for God's sake. If Ash-Greninja wasn't on E4 level it would been effortlessly bested by Mega Gardevoir without any trouble. Going toe to toe and momentarily overpowering a Champion's Pokemon should be enough to put you on E4 level.

Plus it only happened once - Ash-Greninja needs to be consistently able to do that in order to definitely in the E4 league.

I'd like to know the inconsistency you're referring to.

Doesn't change the fact that Greninja has still never beaten Charizard, which pins Charizards as the stronger Pokémon.

Nobody's denying that.

That he believed defeating Ash-Greninja would take him to a higher level doesn't mean it did. That relies entirely on Alain's subjective view of what a higher level is. All that matters is quantifiable result. Alain consistently beat Ash so they're not on the same level.

Alain beat Ash two times. And there's no reason to assume that Alain would blatantly lie like that.

Based only on a few seconds of the battle when it's not clear what happened before. And it doesn't account for the other battles Cynthia has had as Champion.

We saw a major part of the battle between Cynthia's Garchomp and Flint's Infernape, and it's clearly evident that Ash-Greninja did more damage and performed better. There is no point in denying this.

Plus Cynthia and Caitlin and an equally matched fight in BW in which Cynthia did not appear to dominate.

Ash-Greninja's performance against Mega Gardevoir was better, not worse than Caitlin's Gothitellele.

Yes Wikstrom was a curbstomp but it's the montage from the opening of a movie so I'm not sure what role it plays in cannon. Wikstrom could simply have just been unlucky that one time.

So Wikstrom was curbstomped and Ash-Greninja's performance was clearly better than this, objectively.

If so, so what. All Ash-Greninja did was land one hit. Pikachu landed two hits on Agahta's Gengar, Grovlye managed to keep up with Drake's Altria for a little while and both E4 members complimented Ash and in Agahta's case said he was doing well. Ash still didn't come close - the same is probably true of Diantha.

Ash-Greninja went toe to toe for 7-8 minutes and landed two Cuts and a Water Shuriken that overpowered Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and send it flying back. None, of the examples you mentioned are even comparable to this, plus they are E4 level opponents, not Champion level. Comparing Agatha's Gengar and Drake's Altaria to Diantha's Mega Gardevoir is plain laughable.
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/zeeHapU.jpg[/IMG300]

[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/VC0eEMY.jpg[/IMG300]

I don't believe it was either that hard or did a particularly large amount of damage. No more than Gardeviour did to Greninja when it threw him into the tree. Pokémon have been sent flying all the time in XY

It was a significant amount of damage- Water Shuriken overpowered the Shadow Ball and sent Mega Gardevoir flying back yelling in pain. That not something any random below E4 level Pokemon can do. You're kidding yourself if you're thinking so.

 

[Bguy7]

Okay, so the point is about Base Gardevoir's power level I guess.

Infernape got some impressive wins against Volkner's Jolteon and Paul's Aggron/Ninjask so I think it can decisively win against the remaining Sinnoh team members. Base Greninja doesn't have that many feats, but iirc, it defeated Sawyer's Clawitzer with a single hit, who took out Noivern+Hawlucha (and Clawitzer was pretty healthy after using Heal Pulse to heal itself). Clawitzer would give any of Ash's Kalos team members a tough time in a 1 on 1 and possibly win, so Greninja defeating it with a single hit shows its superiority over the other Kalos team members. Yeah so I'll say that Infernape and Greninja even without their power-ups are remarkably better than the other members of the regional teams. Could be the same in the case of the E4.

Probably, but even Paul's Drapion also took multiple hits without flinching. So comparing this to Aaron's Drapion, a Pokemon of the exact same species, an E4 non-ace, taking that much damage from a TR Pokemon, makes me consider about its strength, an by an extent E4 non-aces. I know Aaron wasn't there, but still....

Well, I think I have given some comparisons which I'll discuss down below.

Yeah, but those struggles were possibly against Korrina's Lucario/Mega Lucario(who got 100 wins in a row) and against Clemont who battled very tactically in that Gym battle. But those struggles weren't comparable to its struggle against Diantha's Gardevoir, where it couldn't even even touch it.

Not going to say that it's weak, but it didn't win against of the strong opponents it fought. It lost pretty effortlessly to Volkner's Electivire, iirc. I can't see how there is anything that suggests that Torterra was better than Pikachu was in Kalos at the point(with impressive wins against Viola and Grant's Aces).

This same Pikachu at that point could even touch Diantha's Gardevoir whereas Torterra managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon. Isn't the superiority of Diantha's Gardevoir over Bertha's Hippowdon, an E4 ace, evident here. Plus, Gardevoir was also effortlessly toying with Base Greninja (who is obviously a pretty decent Pokemon) before the transformation happened.

As much as I've enjoyed this debate (I'm not joking, I have), we're at the point where we're going in circles (been there for a while actually). Instead of addressing each of your points individually, I'm just going to attempt to explain one final all-encompassing argument.

Here's the thing, you are the one making the bold claim that Ash could defeat an Elite Four and attempting to prove so. Therefore, the burden of proof falls upon your shoulders. The problem is, as I have pointed out over and over, the best evidence you can provide all have some sort of fallacy. It is completely possible that all the assumptions you are making are correct, but without making assumptions, there's just no concrete evidence. There's reasonable doubt on them all. My argument has never been that you are wrong, but rather that you could be wrong, and none of us have any way to know, and that doesn't make for good evidence. You are of course welcome to come to whatever conclusion you want based off of your evidence, but you can't expect it to be objective and convince everyone else either.

 

[CMButch]

Even with weakest E4 Ash would lose in 6 vs 6.
Let's say Malva is the weakest.
She has: 1 E4 Mega level and 5 E4 level Pokemon.
Ash's GPCISS.
A-Greninja: let's say champion base level
Peakachu with Z-move: E4 level
Charizard( let's even say he can go Mega) : E4 level(+) ( between E4 Mega and E4) without Mega E4 level.
Sceptile: below E4 above Gym
Snorlax: below E4 above Gym
Blazeape: below E4 above Gym+

How is Ash winning this? I can see Ash beating Malva's 4-5 Pokemon, but lose to her final resort.

A-G vs MH= A-G( tired)
A-G vs Magmortar= Magmortar with Z move(tie)
Pikachu( Z move) vs Flareon = Flareon(exhausted)
Charizard( no Mega) vs Flareon= Charizard(kinda tired)
Charizard vs Chandelure= Chandelure( tired)
Sceptile vs Chandelure= Chandelure( exhausted)
Snorlax vs Chandelure = Snorlax ( little bit tired)
Snorlax vs Emboar= Emboar(little tired)
Blazeape vs Emboar= Emboar( very tired)

With Mega Charizard, Ash would probably go to Malva's final Pokemon and final Pokemon would one shot Ash's final Pokemon. Or in the best case scenario; Malva's final Pokemon beats Ash's final Pokemon but is tired/exhausted.

 

[Sprinter1988]

It's not a case of whether or not Ash has pokemon capable of beating Elite 4 level pokemon, it's a case of whether or not he would actually think to use them.

Let us remember that even when Ash was at his best in Sinnoh, he was faced with a Darkrai and while he did make two good picks in Heracross and Sceptile and two ok picks in Swellow and Pikachu, he also chose Gible and Torkoal over the likes of Snorlax, Charizard, Donphan, Glalie, Noctowl, Kingler, Tauros, and everything else that was a part of his Sinnoh Team (I get he wanted to rest them after their battle with Paul, but that argument sort of falls apart when you realise he still used Pikachu)

You also have to consider the fact that Ash still has that fatal error in judgement, the one where his opponent sends out a Rhydon and with all his wisdom will send in Pikachu to battle it. it's something that he has never shaken off - he goes to battle Candice's Ice type gym and sends out Grotle, he goes to battle Roxie and her poison types and brings Leavanny, he goes to battle Sawyer who sends out Slurpuff so Ash chooses Goodra.

I mean come on, let's face the facts people; if Ash were to face, let's say Glacia of the Hoenn Elite Four, he would find out that she specialises in Ice types and his first three choices for his team would be Unfezant, Torterra and Noivern.

 

[Bguy7]

It's not a case of whether or not Ash has pokemon capable of beating Elite 4 level pokemon, it's a case of whether or not he would actually think to use them.

Let us remember that even when Ash was at his best in Sinnoh, he was faced with a Darkrai and while he did make two good picks in Heracross and Sceptile and two ok picks in Swellow and Pikachu, he also chose Gible and Torkoal over the likes of Snorlax, Charizard, Donphan, Glalie, Noctowl, Kingler, Tauros, and everything else that was a part of his Sinnoh Team (I get he wanted to rest them after their battle with Paul, but that argument sort of falls apart when you realise he still used Pikachu)

You also have to consider the fact that Ash still has that fatal error in judgement, the one where his opponent sends out a Rhydon and with all his wisdom will send in Pikachu to battle it. it's something that he has never shaken off - he goes to battle Candice's Ice type gym and sends out Grotle, he goes to battle Roxie and her poison types and brings Leavanny, he goes to battle Sawyer who sends out Slurpuff so Ash chooses Goodra.

I mean come on, let's face the facts people; if Ash were to face, let's say Glacia of the Hoenn Elite Four, he would find out that she specialises in Ice types and his first three choices for his team would be Unfezant, Torterra and Noivern.

To be fair, one of Ash's greatest strengths is that he doesn't let type disadvantages hold him back. He almost always finds a way around them.

 

[Pikachu52]

We saw a major part of the battle between Cynthia's Garchomp and Flint's Infernape, and it's clearly evident that Ash-Greninja did more damage and performed better. There is no point in denying this.

So Wikstrom was curbstomped and Ash-Greninja's performance was clearly better than this, objectively.

Ash-Greninja went toe to toe for 7-8 minutes and landed two Cuts and a Water Shuriken that overpowered Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and send it flying back. None, of the examples you mentioned are even comparable to this, plus they are E4 level opponents, not Champion level. Comparing Agatha's Gengar and Drake's Altaria to Diantha's Mega Gardevoir is plain laughable.

It was a significant amount of damage- Water Shuriken overpowered the Shadow Ball and sent Mega Gardevoir flying back yelling in pain. That not something any random below E4 level Pokemon can do. You're kidding yourself if you're thinking so.

Okay. Even if I agreed that Ash-Greninja's performance against Mega Gardevoir is objectively better than other E4 v Champion battles, there's still several hurdles this argument has to overcome to prove Greninja is E4 level.

First, we can't assume the very brief clip of Cynthia's Garchomp vs Flint's Infernape and Lucian's Bronzong typify champion battles. There could have been other challengers with Pokémon that did more damage or went toe to toe longer with Garchomp. After all Paul managed to hit Garchomp and Ash managed to hit Gengar and Altaria. I'll give you that Greninja did better than those examples, but it's not clear how much better. Especially since bruises and flying backwards are more commonplace in the more detailed animation styles of BW and XY.

Second, even though they are both regional champions, it still can't be assumed that Cynthia and Diantha are equal - Cynthia could just be a much better trainer than Diantha and hence more of a challenge. The same goes for the regional elite fours. Therefore the comparison of Ash-Greninja v Gardevoir to any of Garchomp's battles isn't necessarily fair.

Third, the argument assumes Diantha wasn't holding back or had initially held back in a way that gave Greninja a significant lead. If she's not battling at the same level as she did when she curb stomped Wikstrom it again, isn't a fair comparison.

Forth, it can't be assumed this wasn't a fluke on Greninja's part. After all Greninja's next two battles were losses, including against Wulfric in it's Ash-Greninja form. Plus Greninja failed to complete the battle due to fainting. That may indicate that Greninja and Ash were using a huge amount of energy to keep pace that didn't typify Greninja's power level after they learnt to control the transformation. None of Greninja's battles after this demonstrated that it had the potential to go toe to toe with the champion again. If Alain's Charizard is E4 level Greninja is still below it on account of the fact it failed to beat it.

I'm defining E4 level as being able to take on and defeat an E4 member's Pokémon. 7-8 minutes of going toe to toe with a champion Pokémon that ultimate caused it to faint from exhaustion aren't a sufficient indica of Greninja's ability to do that. Not when it never repeated that performance.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Okay. Even if I agreed that Ash-Greninja's performance against Mega Gardevoir is objectively better than other E4 v Champion battles, there's still several hurdles this argument has to overcome to prove Greninja is E4 level.

First, we can't assume the very brief clip of Cynthia's Garchomp vs Flint's Infernape and Lucian's Bronzong typify champion battles. There could have been other challengers with Pokémon that did more damage or went toe to toe longer with Garchomp. After all Paul managed to hit Garchomp and Ash managed to hit Gengar and Altaria. I'll give you that Greninja did better than those examples, but it's not clear how much better. Especially since bruises and flying backwards are more commonplace in the more detailed animation styles of BW and XY.

Flint's Infernape didn't have any bruises and wasn't sent flying back after battling Buizel, Infernape and Pikachu one after another. Cynthia's Garchomp barely took any damage after wrecking Paul's Pokemon one after another. However, in Ash-Greninja vs Mega Gardevoir, Ash-Greninja was pretty much overwhelming Mega Gardevoir with its attacks and repeatedly gaining the upper hand in that battle.

Ash-Greninja's Cut collided with Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and creates a huge shockwave pushing Gardevoir back. Diantha said (it the subs)- Had that hit, we wouldn't have stood a chance.

Ash-Greninja goes for a Cut, Gardevoir tried to dodge it, but fails and gets struck down.

Ash-Greninja's Double Team+Cut combo breaks through Mega Gardevoir's Reflect and pushes Mega Gardevoir back.

Full-form Ash-Greninja's huge Water Shuriken overpoweres Megs Gardevoir's huge Shadow Ball and sends Mega Gardevoir flying back with bruises on its body will Mega Gardevoir yelling in pain.

Though Mega Gardevoir was able to get up after that, just after using full power for a few seconds to break TR's contraption, Mega Gardevoir de-Mega Evolves to Gardevoir and falls to its knees in panting in exhaustion, which also shows that Gardevoir was already significantly damaged(otherwise a Champion's Pokemon isn't obviously supposed to get exhausted after just using full power for a few seconds to break TR's contraption, surely the trio isn't that competent). Diantha said when he recalled Gardevoir, (in the subs)- That really was a bit too much, wasn't it?

See, so repeatedly Gardevoir was getting overwhelmed by Ash-Greninja attacks and was getting dominated. Nevertheless, we haven't seen a Champion's Pokemon struggling like that ever again. Even in E4 vs Champion battles. E4's mostly get crushed by Champions, like Lucian, Wikstrom, and some E4's like Flint and Caitlin put up a decent fight. But they never manages to battle on par for so long or dominate and overwhelm it. So being able to pose a threat to Champion's Pokemon puts you on a different tier.

Second, even though they are both regional champions, it still can't be assumed that Cynthia and Diantha are equal - Cynthia could just be a much better trainer than Diantha and hence more of a challenge. The same goes for the regional elite fours. Therefore the comparison of Ash-Greninja v Gardevoir to any of Garchomp's battles isn't necessarily fair.

But where's your proof that Cynthia is superior to Diantha? Since they are regional Champions, it's reasonable to assume that they are more or less around the same level, because regional Champions have a certain level, and to become a regional Champion, one needs to fulfill the same criteria, i.e. win the Champion's League. Diantha can possibly be more powerful, because she has Mega Evolution. While Cynthia's Champion level level Garchomp doesn't have that Mega Evolution boost, Diantha's Champion level Gardevoir has.

Third, the argument assumes Diantha wasn't holding back or had initially held back in a way that gave Greninja a significant lead. If she's not battling at the same level as she did when she curb stomped Wikstrom it again, isn't a fair comparison.

She didn't go seriously at the start but later on? She felt the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir, and later was commanding with a serious look. When Ash-Greninja reached full-form and fired that large Water Shuriken, Diantha took a serious stance and commanded Shadow Ball (which was a huge one with a sense of desperation in her voice) and still got overpowered. So that means something.

Forth, it can't be assumed this wasn't a fluke on Greninja's part. After all Greninja's next two battles were losses, including against Wulfric in it's Ash-Greninja form. Plus Greninja failed to complete the battle due to fainting. That may indicate that Greninja and Ash were using a huge amount of energy to keep pace that didn't typify Greninja's power level after they learnt to control the transformation. None of Greninja's battles after this demonstrated that it had the potential to go toe to toe with the champion again. If Alain's Charizard is E4 level Greninja is still below it on account of the fact it failed to beat it.

Why do you think it was a fluke? If you're referring to its next two losses, one (against Sawyer) was because the transformation didn't activate. Wulfric Avulugg, yes that was a rare off-day, plus Ash was getting obsessed with power and not battling at his best. Ash and Greninja battle best when they are fully in sync, like in the Diantha battle. If you're using that logic, then Charizard's win over Articuno was also a fluke, since it lost to Dusclops after that, who is certainly not as strong as Articuno.

Alain's Mega Charizard X is above E4 level since ME-4- it was implied that Alain went through intense training between ME3 and ME4. If it's beats Mega Houndoom despite being exhausted after battling 9 Megas before, then it's above E4 level. And Ash-Greninja fought slightly better than Mega Houndoom considering Mega Charizard X was more weakened in Mega Houndoom's case, so it's fight against Mega Charizard X also doesn't contradict that it's E4 level.

I'm defining E4 level as being able to take on and defeat an E4 member's Pokémon. 7-8 minutes of going toe to toe with a champion Pokémon that ultimate caused it to faint from exhaustion aren't a sufficient indica of Greninja's ability to do that. Not when it never repeated that performance.

Ash and Greninja passed out because the form wasn't mastered yet. And since no E4 level Pokemon has pushed a Champion's Pokemon that hard as we have seen so far, it's an E4 level worthy feat of course.

Plus Ash-Greninja has proved that it can effortlessly wreck strong Pokemon in one hit, just like E4 level Pokemon like Flint's Infernape can do.

Heidayu's Bisharp was dominating Pikachu+Frogadier+Sanpei's Greninja single handedly and Ash-Greninja OHKO'd it-
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/5JKryTo.jpg[/IMG300]
Sawyer's Sceptile was dominating Base Greninja in XY&Z13, but after transformation Ash-Greninja OHKO'd it-
[IMG300]http://i.imgur.com/pbml684.jpg[/IMG300]

 

[Pikachu52]

Flint's Infernape didn't have any bruises and wasn't sent flying back after battling Buizel, Infernape and Pikachu one after another. Cynthia's Garchomp barely took any damage after wrecking Paul's Pokemon one after another. However, in Ash-Greninja vs Mega Gardevoir, Ash-Greninja was pretty much overwhelming Mega Gardevoir with its attacks and repeatedly gaining the upper hand in that battle.

As I said before, I agree that Greninja's performance against is better than Buizel, Infernape and Pikachu against Flint's Infernape. That's undeniable. But that doesn't translate to Greninja being E4 level. And I don't agree that it was overwhelming. At best it was keeping pace.

Ash-Greninja's Cut collided with Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and creates a huge shockwave pushing Gardevoir back. Diantha said (it the subs)- Had that hit, we wouldn't have stood a chance.

That comment wasn't in the dub. So I don't know how much significance to attach to it.

In any case the key word is "had." It's not good enough for an attack to be strong enough to take a Pokémon - the skill is also in being able to land your attack, which Greninja didn't in that instance. Tobias makes a similar comment about the strength of Gible's Draco Meteor in relation to his Darkrai - that didn't put Gible in the same league as Darkrai.

Full-form Ash-Greninja's huge Water Shuriken overpoweres Megs Gardevoir's huge Shadow Ball and sends Mega Gardevoir flying back with bruises on its body will Mega Gardevoir yelling in pain.

Flying back with bruises isn't significant. Under the animation style in XY it's quite common for Pokémon to be seen with bruises and to take violent hits in this series.

In the very first episode, Pikachu is seen lying injured in Ash's arms after taking a reflected hit from Jessie's Wobbufett. But that logic Wobbufett is at Pikachu's level. In fact there are several points in this series where a Team Rocket lands a significant hit on either Pikachu or one of Ash's Pokémon, but Team Rocket are still acknowledged as weaker than Ash and friends.

See, so repeatedly Gardevoir was getting overwhelmed by Ash-Greninja attacks and was getting dominated.

Keeping pace at best - Dominated should mean decisively winning and it's not clear that Greninja was doing that. In any case if Diantha was holding back to the point it placed her at a disadvantage, taking some damage is to be expected.

She didn't go seriously at the start but later on? She felt the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir, and later was commanding with a serious look. When Ash-Greninja reached full-form and fired that large Water Shuriken, Diantha took a serious stance and commanded Shadow Ball (which was a huge one with a sense of desperation in her voice) and still got overpowered. So that means something.

But it's not clear how much that lack of seriousness disadvantaged her. While I accepted she was put under pressure, but I don't accepted that this was due to Greninja's strength or ability alone, as opposed to her allowing it to get too much of an edge.

Why do you think it was a fluke? If you're referring to its next two losses, one (against Sawyer) was because the transformation didn't activate. Wulfric Avulugg, yes that was a rare off-day, plus Ash was getting obsessed with power and not battling at his best. Ash and Greninja battle best when they are fully in sync, like in the Diantha battle. If you're using that logic, then Charizard's win over Articuno was also a fluke, since it lost to Dusclops after that, who is certainly not as strong as Articuno.

Dusclops probably was stronger than Articuno given it belonged to Brandon, the strongest of the Frontier brains.

I suggest the possibility of a fluke because Greninja never repeated the feat. I agree that Ash and Greninja battle best when they are fully in sync - but they weren't in sync that entire fight, hence the fainting. And they may have lost sync simply because Ash was pushing Greninja too hard, hence the keeping pace.

Alain's Mega Charizard X is above E4 level since ME-4- it was implied that Alain went through intense training between ME3 and ME4. If it's beats Mega Houndoom despite being exhausted after battling 9 Megas before, then it's above E4 level.

That would ultimately depend on how strong the previous 9 Mega's were. Nothing suggests they themselves were E4 level and a few of them went down pretty easily.

E4 is being able to battle and beat other E4 level Pokémon consistently. And since the Elite four mostly fight 6 v 6, it would be expected that one Pokémon would take on more than one opponent, have to face opponents while exhausted from fighting other opponents and likely win against multiple opponents, all in the one battle. So more than likely that feat puts Alain at E4 level.

And Ash-Greninja fought slightly better than Mega Houndoom considering Mega Charizard X was more weakened in Mega Houndoom's case, so it's fight against Mega Charizard X also doesn't contradict that it's E4 level.

I don't see how that works. Greninja didn't fight better than Mega Houndoom since Charizard X was weakened from the previous 9 battles - Charizard had also fought several of Ash's other Pokémon in that battle before it took on Greninja. Greninja ultimately didn't come close to beating Charizard - It just put up a good fight. I'll give you that, in and of itself that wouldn't exclude Greninja from E4 level, but it has to make it less likely.

Plus Ash-Greninja has proved that it can effortlessly wreck strong Pokemon in one hit, just like E4 level Pokemon like Flint's Infernape can do.

Heidayu's Bisharp was dominating Pikachu+Frogadier+Sanpei's Greninja single handedly and Ash-Greninja OHKO'd it-
Sawyer's Sceptile was dominating Base Greninja in XY&Z13, but after transformation Ash-Greninja OHKO'd it-

But it's all relative again.

Greninja dominated Sceptile long before Sawyer's fast turn around of skill - evidenced by the fact that Hawluctha and Pikachu also dominated their respective opponents, Shelgon and Hondage. So that's not really dominating a strong Pokémon - It's dominating a clearly much weaker one.

It's also not clear as to how strong Heidayu's Bisharp is. It's obviously strong, but that doesn't mean any Pokémon that beats it, even in one hit, is instantly E4 level.

Just because it was like Flint's Infernape, doesn't make it the same as Flint's Infernape. It's dependent on the opponent's strength.

I'm not denying Greninja is powerful - I'm denying it's E4 powerful. It could go toe to toe with E4 level Pokémon, no question. But there's nothing in the anime that supports the proposition that it could decisively beat an E4 level Pokémon on a repeated basis.

Sceptile beat Darkrai, Pikachu beat a Regice, Charizard an Articuno - are they E4 level as well.

and coming back to the thread's question - Even if Greninja could possibly match or take down one E4 Pokémon, it still leaves us with the fact that the Elite Four fight 6 v 6. Greninja's not overcoming all 6 of them, so that still puts Ash a long distance from being able to take on the Elite Four.

 

[345ash-greninja]

As I said before, I agree that Greninja's performance against is better than Buizel, Infernape and Pikachu against Flint's Infernape. That's undeniable. But that doesn't translate to Greninja being E4 level. And I don't agree that it was overwhelming. At best it was keeping pace.

I think that I just mentioned the parts where Ash-Greninja's power and speed were starting to overwhelm Mega Gardevoir.

That comment wasn't in the dub. So I don't know how much significance to attach to it.

??? But the subs have the original dialogues. The episodes are originally in Japanese and then they are later dubbed into English.

In any case the key word is "had." It's not good enough for an attack to be strong enough to take a Pokémon - the skill is also in being able to land your attack, which Greninja didn't in that instance. Tobias makes a similar comment about the strength of Gible's Draco Meteor in relation to his Darkrai - that didn't put Gible in the same league as Darkrai.

That attack partly hit, was half-blocked by Shadow Ball- the result was that Gardevoir was overwhelmed and pushed back. Diantha was talking in her mind, so was certainly surprised by the strength of attack.

Flying back with bruises isn't significant. Under the animation style in XY it's quite common for Pokémon to be seen with bruises and to take violent hits in this series.

We have never seen a Champion's Pokemon taking a damage inducing hit like that. Cynthia's Garchomp hardly felt any of the hits from Paul's Pokemon. And Diantha called out Gardevoir's name when it fell onto the ground and looked worriedly at it, which also indicates the amount of damage if took.

And as I said before, Mega Gardevoir fell to its knees in exhaustion later on after using full power for a few seconds to break TR's contraption- this shows that Gardevoir was significantly damaged beforehand, otherwise a Champion's Pokemon can't be that much exhausted just after using full power momentarily to break through a TR contraption, surely the trio isn't that competent.

Keeping pace at best - Dominated should mean decisively winning and it's not clear that Greninja was doing that. In any case if Diantha was holding back to the point it placed her at a disadvantage, taking some damage is to be expected.

So by your logic, Steven's Mega Metagross wasn't dominating Mega Charizard X? Ash-Greninja's attacks were overwhelming Mega Gardevoir quite a number of times. Yes Diantha held back initially but in the end she also fired a huge Shadow Ball to stop the Water Shuriken, but still got overpowered.

But it's not clear how much that lack of seriousness disadvantaged her. While I accepted she was put under pressure, but I don't accepted that this was due to Greninja's strength or ability alone, as opposed to her allowing it to get too much of an edge.

Then why did Mega Gardevoir get overpowered in the end.

Dusclops probably was stronger than Articuno given it belonged to Brandon, the strongest of the Frontier brains.

So Solrock and Ninjask, to whom Bulbasaur and Squirtle and won against respectively, were also stronger than Articuno? Dusclops was obviously strong, but possibly not as a Legendary. Though one thing is that the Legendary Birds are among the weakest Legendaries- Noivern vs Zapdos pretty much proves this.

I suggest the possibility of a fluke because Greninja never repeated the feat. I agree that Ash and Greninja battle best when they are fully in sync - but they weren't in sync that entire fight, hence the fainting. And they may have lost sync simply because Ash was pushing Greninja too hard, hence the keeping pace.

Ash said after the fight to Greninja that they were fully in sync. They probably went out of sync because the form wasn't mastered yet.

But it's all relative again.

Greninja dominated Sceptile long before Sawyer's fast turn around of skill - evidenced by the fact that Hawluctha and Pikachu also dominated their respective opponents, Shelgon and Hondage. So that's not really dominating a strong Pokémon - It's dominating a clearly much weaker one.

I think that you need to re-watch the episode again. Sceptile was dominating base Greninja and pretty much had it on the ropes until the transformation happened and Ash-Greninja OHKO'd it. Shelgon and Honedge were weak at that point, but Sceptile certainly wasn't, it was stronger than Base Greninja at that point.

It's also not clear as to how strong Heidayu's Bisharp is. It's obviously strong, but that doesn't mean any Pokémon that beats it, even in one hit, is instantly E4 level.

Heidayu's Bisharp was dominating Pikachu+Frogadier+ Sanpei's Greninja single handedly so that already speaks about how strong it is. OHKO'ing it speaks about Ash-Greninja's strength, pretty much how Flint's Infernape OHKO's Ash's Buizel/Infernape. And Ash-Greninja wasn't even mastered then.

Just because it was like Flint's Infernape, doesn't make it the same as Flint's Infernape. It's dependent on the opponent's strength.

I have already made it clear how strong those opponents were. Plus considering Flint's Infernape's performance against Cynthia's Garchomp and Ash-Greninja's performance against Diantha's Mega Gardevoir, I can't actually see why Ash-Greninja can trade even beat the likes of Flint's Infernape.

I'm not denying Greninja is powerful - I'm denying it's E4 powerful. It could go toe to toe with E4 level Pokémon, no question. But there's nothing in the anime that supports the proposition that it could decisively beat an E4 level Pokémon on a repeated basis.

Don't know whether it can beat all E4 Pokemon, but he can beat some of them at least given its performance against Diantha's Mega Gardevoir, or having a very close fight with Mega Charizard X, who is above E4 level.

 

[ZilverLox]

I don't think Ash can ever beat the E4, though he can likely defeat some of their team before losing.

 

[Genaller]

An idealized Ash with GPICSS can beat E4s high diff but would still loose to Champions.

 

[Daizy]

An idealized Ash with GPICSS can beat E4s high diff but would still loose to Champions.

Loose? I think if anything, the Elite Four are underrated. Fans saw Malva lose to Alain and now suddenly they've begun to view the Elite Four as being incompetent enough to lose to Ash too.

 

[Genaller]

Loose? I think if anything, the Elite Four are underrated. Fans saw Malva lose to Alain and now suddenly they've begun to view the Elite Four as being incompetent enough to lose to Ash too.

Yeah idealized Ash (union of best qualities from DP and XY) is about as competent as a trainer can get so I'm not sure how loosing to this Ash high diff = "incompetent".

 

[BladexFade]

Loose? I think if anything, the Elite Four are underrated. Fans saw Malva lose to Alain and now suddenly they've begun to view the Elite Four as being incompetent enough to lose to Ash too.

There are only about 2-3 Pokemon from Ash that could put up a fight against E4's in terms of power(Pikachu, Ash-Greninja, & possibly Charizard).

 

[345ash-greninja]

There are only about 2-3 Pokemon from Ash that could put up a fight against E4's in terms of power(Pikachu, Ash-Greninja, & possibly Charizard).

Infernape and Sceptile would certainly beat non-aces.

 

[BladexFade]

Infernape and Sceptile would certainly beat non-aces.

Depends on who the E4 is. Depends if Sceptile & Infernape can beat one without needing the help of other Pokemon contributing by lowering them down. Certainly? Nah. Gamble? Yeah.

 

[Navin]

There are only about 2-3 Pokemon from Ash that could put up a fight against E4's in terms of power(Pikachu, Ash-Greninja, & possibly Charizard).

And that too, it may have to be against only the non-aces. Some aces, like Flint's Infernape, likely beats those each of those three in an individual 1 v 1.