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Ash Vs the Elite 4

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
If Base Sceptile wasn't the better Pokemon Pikachu would've gotten a few hits before falling obviously. Battling beforehand is not not a excuse to get destroyed like that anyway by an opponent who is weaker than you. But Pikachu got overpowered with ease. So it's evident that Sceptile was the better Pokemon there. And if Sceptile Mega Evolved, Pikachu would've gotten destroyed even at full health. Pikachu at full health can put up a fight with Base Sceptile, but I can't see it winning, the way it was destroyed then.

So it is an excuse? :p

Probably falls at the first or second hurdle to me. The E4 and Champion are basically pinnacles of strength and Ash is yet to win a regional championship that may suggest his team is strong enough to challenge the E4.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
I'll concede Mega Sceptile probably would be Pikachu because of the lighting rod ability. There would few ways for Ash to overcome that disadvantage as it would leave Pikachu with only iron tail and quick attack.
Just like how Pikachu fared against Sceptile who didn't have Lightning Rod, eh?

Base Sceptile I think he probably could beat however. Battling before hand is an excuse even when your Pokémon is weaker or on par. Pikachu lost to Tyson's Meowth in Hoenn largely because of the injuries Pikachu took from Metagross, despite them being equally matched. Sawyer's no different.
I have no idea what you're talking about. When did Pikachu take injuries from Metagross? Pikachu defeated Metagross without taking any damage at all. And if Pikachu was better then it should have gotten a few hits at least instead of getting overpowered easily. Clawitzer and Aegislash are not so much good Pokemon that they can tire out Pikachu who is clearly better than Sceptile that Pikachu gets destroyed easily. So it's reasonable to assume that Sceptile was the better Pokemon. The Pikachu who battled Alain I agree can defeat Base Sceptile (Pikachu's power fluctuates).

I don't know why you're not getting that Sawyer's Sceptile was a real powerhouse without Mega Evolution, and so, as Mega Sceptile, it can be definitely E4 level.

Pikachu wasn't overpowered with ease so much as the writers needed to throw him out the match quickly. There's no reason to believe things would be the same under differnet circumstance. This is the same Scepitle that earlier this series was loosing to Frogadire despite evolving and having a type advantage. There's no logical reason to believe it better than Pikachu given Pikachu's experience up to this point

Didn't you understand that Sawyer made a very rapid progression in a short amount of time?
 
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AG and Charizard can take wins, Pikachu might have a shot at a non-ace but the rest of the team will cost Ash.

For Infernape/Sceptile/Snorlax to be considered close to E4 level, they must be able to effortless stomp Pokemon in the same fashion that Shellgon stomped Pikachu/Altaria stomped grovyle while costing virtually no stamina or health.

None of the three have demonstrated these feats: Infernape at his prime took heavy damage from beating Aggron and Ninjask, who were below the likes of Ash's grovyle (and has previously battled). He took a lot of damage and stamina to bring those two down, so he still is far from E4 level. Blaze brings him closer but not enough to compensate.

I also think Ash-Greninja can take an E4 ace, because we can compare his feats with actual E4 members:
MCX vs Mega-houndoom:
Before battle - MCX damaged prior from 9 battles with ME opponents
After battle - MCX was left panting and exhausted
MCX vs Ash-Greninja
Before battle - MCX damaged from a short bout with Pikachu
after battle - MCX staggered in the standoff

Regardless of how you interpret this, a match between Ash-Greninja and Mega-houndoom would be pretty close. Given that Alain wasn't satisfied after beating Malva and sought to battle AG (which I quote "Takes me to new heights"), it is highly plausible that Ash-Greninja would have beaten Malva's mega houndoom, and would very likely be able to take a non mega-evolved E4 ace.

Just my two cents on the matter.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
AG and Charizard can take wins, Pikachu might have a shot at a non-ace but the rest of the team will cost Ash.

For Infernape/Sceptile/Snorlax to be considered close to E4 level, they must be able to effortless stomp Pokemon in the same fashion that Shellgon stomped Pikachu/Altaria stomped grovyle while costing virtually no stamina or health.

None of the three have demonstrated these feats: Infernape at his prime took heavy damage from beating Aggron and Ninjask, who were below the likes of Ash's grovyle (and has previously battled). He took a lot of damage and stamina to bring those two down, so he still is far from E4 level. Blaze brings him closer but not enough to compensate.
Agreed. But I think it'll be a pretty close match with Blaze though. And Pikachu at his best I think can beat an E4 non-ace.

And where do you rate Sawyer's Mega Sceptile? I think it's in the E4 spectrum because it can effortlessly defeat decent Pokemon- Tierno's Blastoise/Raichu.

I also think Ash-Greninja can take an E4 ace, because we can compare his feats with actual E4 members:
MCX vs Mega-houndoom:
Before battle - MCX damaged prior from 9 battles with ME opponents
After battle - MCX was left panting and exhausted
MCX vs Ash-Greninja
Before battle - MCX damaged from a short bout with Pikachu
after battle - MCX staggered in the standoff

Regardless of how you interpret this, a match between Ash-Greninja and Mega-houndoom would be pretty close. Given that Alain wasn't satisfied after beating Malva and sought to battle AG (which I quote "Takes me to new heights"), it is highly plausible that Ash-Greninja would have beaten Malva's mega houndoom, and would very likely be able to take a non mega-evolved E4 ace.

Just my two cents on the matter.

This. Just this. Alain clearly told that his battle with Ash-Greninja took him to new heights- even after defeating Mega Houndoom before. One thing is that MCX wasn't actually panting after defeating Mega Houndoom.
 
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Alloutℯ

Banned
Ash can't win against any of them, though he might be able to force someone like Malva to resort to Mega Evolution.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Water-veil Ash-Greninja's Cut collided with Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and pushes Gardevoir back creating a huge shockwave. Diantha says(in the subs)- Had that hit, we wouldn't have stood a chance.

Ash-Greninja goes for a Cut, Gardevoir tried to dodge it, but is out-sped and struck down.

Ash-Greninja's Double Team+Cut combo broke through Mega Gardevoir's Reflect and pushed Mega Gardevoir back.

Full-form Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken broke through Mega Gardevoir's massive Shadow Ball and send Mega Gardevoir flying back with bruises on its body.

See, there was quite some times in the battle when Ash and Greninja were gaining the upper hand and showing signs of domination. That's why I referred to it as dominating.

Once again, we must define domination differently.

Well there are some evidences in the episode that Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir. Just after Gardevoir fails to dodge Ash-Greninja's Cut and gets struck down, Ash-Greninja charges in with an Aerial Ace, and Diantha instantly Mega Evolves Gardevoir. After Gardevoir Mega Evolves, Serena says(in the subs) that They got Carnet-san backed into a corner! This indicates that Diantha was being backed into a corner and was forced to Mega Evolve Gardevoir.

I don't deny that Diantha was pressured into Mega Evolving. I agree that that is what happened. My point is that we have no way of knowing what that means comparatively in the grand scheme of things. sure it's impressive, but we don't know if it's Elite Four-level impressive.

Well, there is nothing too much conclusive, that's true, but one thing is true- that what Ash-Greninja did in that episode was pretty much groundbreaking for the show, no Pokemon in the anime has so far gone toe to toe with a Champion's ace for such a long time and momentarily overpowered it to gain the upper hand like that. Yes, it should be taken into account that Diantha was holding back, that was obviously a big factor, but the other factors like Diantha felt the pressure and Mega Evolved and she wasn't completely holding back in the last attack as I mentioned earlier obviously makes the feat much impressive. Am I saying that Ash-Greninja can beat a Champion's ace? No, but I believe that it can take out an E4 ace, based on that battle.

I completely agree that it was groundbreaking, and that battle is a big part of the reason why I think Ash-Greninja is Ash's strongest Pokémon, even though I'm a bigger fan of Charizard. My point is that we have no idea how much she was holding back once she Mega Evolved and how much momentum she had lost from holding back in the first place. The only way we could draw a definitive conclusion from that battle would be if Diantha were tohave gone all-out from the start. Anything less does not allow us to make any accurate comparisons due to the level of doubt.

Maybe, but their Aces are possibly on a different level due to more......what? Maybe more usage and experience?

Yes, obviously, training is a big factor, but at the same time, being more battle experienced and battle-tested also matters.

Let me put this a different way. I pointed out in my last post how we never see an Elite Four in a full battle, however, due to the nature of what an Elite Four is, it stands to reason that a majority of their battles are full six-on-six battles. If that really is the case, then that would have to mean that their aces are getting the same amount of battling in as any other of their Pokémon for the most part, it just so happens that we never see this, because the writers never show the complete battle, only the parts with their aces.

True, but even without their forms, they are still the strongest amongst the regional teams except for Pikachu.

That's much more debatable. Take away Blaze and Ash-Greninja, and the feats of Infernape and Greninja become much less pronounced. Maybe they are stronger than most of Ash's other Pokémon, but not to any significant degree, which is pretty much what I'm arguing is the case for Elite Four as well.

Maybe, but that's up to speculation. But we won't really expect an E4 ace level Pokemon to take a hard hit from a TR Pokemon.

Technically yes, it would be speculation. However, the point is that due the shady tactics of Team Rocket combined with the lack of its trainer, Drapion very well could have an excuse for its apparent weakness, and given how powerful the Elite Four are supposed to be, it's absurd to believe that Team Rocket could actually deal that much damage in real battle in fair circumstances.

It is actually hard to believe that Gardevoir is below the power range of an E4 ace and just has a Mega form as a crutch, especially when it's the Champion's ace. A Champion isn't actually expected to be like that to be honest.

The Mega isn't a crutch in this case. The Mega is the true power of that Pokémon. Think of it as Mega Gardevoir being Diantha's ace, not normal Gardevoir. There's nothing wrong about that. It's not a handicap, it's just the way it is.

For the sake of argument, let's say that a trainer becomes Champion using a Gabite as their ace. Are we going to say that this Champion is weaker than Cynthia because they;re using a Gabite instead of a Garchomp? Of course not, we're just going to assume that despite its lower stats, it has made up for it in other ways. This is essentially the same as what I'm asserting about Diantha, just in reverse. Cynthia and Garchomp are no weaker than Diantha and Mega Gardevoir, despite Garchomp being a stage below Mega Gardevoir.

And regarding Pikachu's power fluctuating, its debatable whether it happened at that point, plus remember that Pikachu got its win over Grant about 3-4 episodes ago.

Yes, but grant is the second gym leader of the region. The power curve is still extremely low at this point. Pikachu defeating Grant only means that Pikachu can defeat a weaker gym leader.

It couldn't even touch Gardevoir, whereas in in case of Flint's Infernape, it could do so. Torterra managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon as well. I can't see which feat of Diantha's Base Gardevoir contradicts that it's above E4 level.

But when Ash and Flint battled, it was around the time of Ash's eighth gym badge, so Pikachu was nearing the height of its strength, that's why it would have been able to lie a hit. The same goes for Torterra. It's a fully-evolved Pokémon closer to the end of Ash's journey in Sinnoh. Since Ash and Pikachu battled Diantha so early in their Kalos journey, Pikachu was weaker at this point than it was when it faced Flint or when Torterra faced Hippowdon.


Well if you accept that Ash-Greninja can go toe to toe with a E4 ace and possibly win, then it matters how you rate the E4 non-aces. Pikachu, Charizard, Infernape, Sceptile and Snorlax are no pushovers to go down easily to E4 non-aces. The last I admit is obviously weaker than an E4 non-ace, but can possibly put up a decent fight.

I do think Ash would put up a valiant fight. He certainly would be able to take out more than one of the Elite Four's Pokémon, but I still believe that in the end, he would lose Pokémon faster than the Elite Four would.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
I don't know why you're not getting that Sawyer's Sceptile was a real powerhouse without Mega Evolution, and so, as Mega Sceptile, it can be definitely E4 level.

I'm not denying Sceptile was a powerhouse. I simply suggesting that there's nothing to confirm that was it was an E4 level Pokémon.

It's only battles were with Pokémon that fall far short of E4 level. It's never battled anyone of the Elite four so there's no telling how it would compare.

Didn't you understand that Sawyer made a very rapid progression in a short amount of time?

Yes he did. I've been consistently critical of that point because I don't believe it was a realistic character progression given Sawyer's starting point.

But rapid progression doesn't pin a trainer at the Elite Four level.

A trainer has to win their home region league to be eligible to even challenge the elite four, so given that Sawyer was only ranked in Kalos league top 4 I don't see how he could be considered E4 level.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Once again, we must define domination differently.
Well, I just pointed out that there were quite some times in the battle where Ash and Greninja were gaining the upper hand.

I don't deny that Diantha was pressured into Mega Evolving. I agree that that is what happened. My point is that we have no way of knowing what that means comparatively in the grand scheme of things. sure it's impressive, but we don't know if it's Elite Four-level impressive.
Well, if you agree that Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir, they it's up to whether you believe that Diantha Gardevoir in its base form is on par/above E4 level or not. I'll elaborate on that point below.

I completely agree that it was groundbreaking, and that battle is a big part of the reason why I think Ash-Greninja is Ash's strongest Pokémon, even though I'm a bigger fan of Charizard. My point is that we have no idea how much she was holding back once she Mega Evolved and how much momentum she had lost from holding back in the first place. The only way we could draw a definitive conclusion from that battle would be if Diantha were tohave gone all-out from the start. Anything less does not allow us to make any accurate comparisons due to the level of doubt.
Pretty much this, but just that point I made above, that Diantha being pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir is pretty much conclusive/not much doubt there.

Let me put this a different way. I pointed out in my last post how we never see an Elite Four in a full battle, however, due to the nature of what an Elite Four is, it stands to reason that a majority of their battles are full six-on-six battles. If that really is the case, then that would have to mean that their aces are getting the same amount of battling in as any other of their Pokémon for the most part, it just so happens that we never see this, because the writers never show the complete battle, only the parts with their aces.
It's true that in full six-on-six battles, the writers just skip the part of the battles where their non-aces are battling, but one thing is still evident that whenever the E4 members battle one on one or in exhibition match or maybe when they are in a crisis, they always opt for their. Cynthia got so much screentime, and yet we saw her mostly using Garchomp all the time, except for Gastrodon twice(Glaceon hardly can be counted as it was only used to make Ice for Meloetta).

That's much more debatable. Take away Blaze and Ash-Greninja, and the feats of Infernape and Greninja become much less pronounced. Maybe they are stronger than most of Ash's other Pokémon, but not to any significant degree, which is pretty much what I'm arguing is the case for Elite Four as well.
I said except for Pikachu(as Pikachu is a recurrent powerhouse is every regional team of Ash). They without the special power-ups are still a bit stronger than the other members of Ash's subsequent regional teams.

Technically yes, it would be speculation. However, the point is that due the shady tactics of Team Rocket combined with the lack of its trainer, Drapion very well could have an excuse for its apparent weakness, and given how powerful the Elite Four are supposed to be, it's absurd to believe that Team Rocket could actually deal that much damage in real battle in fair circumstances.
The shady tactics of TR and Aaron not being there was a factor obviously, but taking a hard hit like that from TR Pokemon probably suggests that E4 non-aces are not on the level of E4 aces. An E4 ace would have probably absorbed that blow easily.

The Mega isn't a crutch in this case. The Mega is the true power of that Pokémon. Think of it as Mega Gardevoir being Diantha's ace, not normal Gardevoir. There's nothing wrong about that. It's not a handicap, it's just the way it is.


For the sake of argument, let's say that a trainer becomes Champion using a Gabite as their ace. Are we going to say that this Champion is weaker than Cynthia because they;re using a Gabite instead of a Garchomp? Of course not, we're just going to assume that despite its lower stats, it has made up for it in other ways. This is essentially the same as what I'm asserting about Diantha, just in reverse. Cynthia and Garchomp are no weaker than Diantha and Mega Gardevoir, despite Garchomp being a stage below Mega Gardevoir.
Look you're saying that Diantha's Mega Gardevoir is her Champion level ace not Base Gardevoir. But there are clear evidence about the fact that Diantha doesn't Gardevoir all the time and she only Mega Evolves when her opponent is that much strong. She was wrecking Magnus's Absol/Pikachu without Mega Evolving her Gardevoir, toying with Base Greninja before the transformation happened and pressurized ther Mega Evolve Gardevoir. So she isn't overreliaint on Mega Evolution, she only uses it when it's very nessecary. So, her Gardevoir in its base form could be just as powerful as Cynthia's Garchomp, and as Mega Gardevoir, even more powerful.

Yes, but grant is the second gym leader of the region. The power curve is still extremely low at this point. Pikachu defeating Grant only means that Pikachu can defeat a weaker gym leader.

Grant's Tyrunt was pretty strong, it effortlessly defeated Froakie and Fletchling. And Pikachu defeated this Tyrunt without taking a single hit. And this same Pikachu couldn't even touch Diantha's Gardevoir. And Torterra managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon. I highly doubt Torterra can pull off a win against Grant's Tyrunt given its track record. So see, Diantha's Gardevoir's performance against Pikachu was superior than an E4 ace.

I do think Ash would put up a valiant fight. He certainly would be able to take out more than one of the Elite Four's Pokémon, but I still believe that in the end, he would lose Pokémon faster than the Elite Four would.
So I guess that you've been at least convinced that Ash can put up a valiant fight against an E4.
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Pretty much this, but just that point I made above, that Diantha being pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir is pretty much conclusive/not much doubt there.

The doubt comes from the fact that we don't know how much power Diantha was using once she Mega Evolved, and that we don't know how irreparably the results of the battle where skewed due to Diantha's initial holding back. The only way to remove the doubt and have a ocnclusive result would be to have a battle where Diantha went all-out from the very beginning.

It's true that in full six-on-six battles, the writers just skip the part of the battles where their non-aces are battling, but one thing is still evident that whenever the E4 members battle one on one or in exhibition match or maybe when they are in a crisis, they always opt for their. Cynthia got so much screentime, and yet we saw her mostly using Garchomp all the time, except for Gastrodon twice(Glaceon hardly can be counted as it was only used to make Ice for Meloetta).

As I said though, a majority of any important and/or difficult battles (the ones that give the most experience) that an Elite Four/Champion does is going to be full battles. We just never got a chance to see that writing purposes.

I said except for Pikachu(as Pikachu is a recurrent powerhouse is every regional team of Ash). They without the special power-ups are still a bit stronger than the other members of Ash's subsequent regional teams.

A bit maybe, but there isn't a large discrepancy like you're suggesting exists on Elite Four teams.

The shady tactics of TR and Aaron not being there was a factor obviously, but taking a hard hit like that from TR Pokemon probably suggests that E4 non-aces are not on the level of E4 aces. An E4 ace would have probably absorbed that blow easily.

You're judging Drapion unfairly. We saw it in no real (or fair) battles, and therefore have no idea what it's method of battling is. As I said before, it is entirely possible that that it relies on a combination of Aaron's strategy and its own speed/power instead of its endurance, which it would have lost the benefit of in the situation it is in. Until we know that that is not the case, there is no way you can fairly claim that that hit was indicative of how it actually battles. Even an Elite Four's ace could have the same problem. Being a powerful Pokémon/skilled battler does not always mean being able to absorb attacks.

Look you're saying that Diantha's Mega Gardevoir is her Champion level ace not Base Gardevoir. But there are clear evidence about the fact that Diantha doesn't Gardevoir all the time and she only Mega Evolves when her opponent is that much strong. She was wrecking Magnus's Absol/Pikachu without Mega Evolving her Gardevoir, toying with Base Greninja before the transformation happened and pressurized ther Mega Evolve Gardevoir. So she isn't overreliaint on Mega Evolution, she only uses it when it's very nessecary. So, her Gardevoir in its base form could be just as powerful as Cynthia's Garchomp, and as Mega Gardevoir, even more powerful.

She didn't Mega Evolve against Magnus and Pikachu because she didn't need to due to their lower relative power/skill levels. There was no reason for her to go all out. What I'm saying isn't that she's over-reliant on Mega Evolution, it's the logical assertion that she used her Pokémon to its greatest potential in order to achieve her position, and that means Mega Evolving. The only way you could prove any different is if we actually had a battle where Diantha fought another Champion without Mega Evolving and held her own/won.

Grant's Tyrunt was pretty strong, it effortlessly defeated Froakie and Fletchling. And Pikachu defeated this Tyrunt without taking a single hit.

It beat Froakie and Fletchling, two unevolved Pokémon who at the time had relatively little training. This was still at the beginning of the region. It was powerful for that point in time, but once we start talking about Elite Four/Champion-level Pokémon, it's strength means absolutely nothing.

And this same Pikachu couldn't even touch Diantha's Gardevoir.

Because her Gardevoir, even without Mega Evolving, would be very much stronger than a second gym leader's Tyrunt, even if it isn't as strong as an Elite Four Pokémon.

And Torterra managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon. I highly doubt Torterra can pull off a win against Grant's Tyrunt given its track record.

Are you claiming that Torterra near the end of Sinnoh was as weak as, if not weaker than, Froakie and Fletchling at the beginning of Kalos? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?

So I guess that you've been at least convinced that Ash can put up a valiant fight against an E4.

I never said anything to the contrary. All I said in the beginning was that he couldn't win.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
I'm not denying Sceptile was a powerhouse. I simply suggesting that there's nothing to confirm that was it was an E4 level Pokémon.

It's only battles were with Pokémon that fall far short of E4 level. It's never battled anyone of the Elite four so there's no telling how it would compare.
And Sceptile also hasn't done anything which suggests that it's flat out below E4 level. Infernape took significant damage while beating Aggron and Ninjask, which suggests that it's not E4 level, as a E4 ace would easily power through that kind of Pokemon. And Sceptile easily powered through its opponents in the League without even getting a scratch, just like E4 level opponent would do, e.g. Flint's Infernape vs Ash Buizel, Infernape and Pikachu.

Sceptile, as Base, is definitely above Sawyer battle Pikachu(below Alain battle Pikachu though, I agree). It definitely a Tier 1 worthy Pokemon and can give any of Ash's powerhouses a run for their money without Mega Evolution. So with the Mega Evolution boost, it can definitely be on that level where it can give E4 ace level opponents a run for their money.



Yes he did. I've been consistently critical of that point because I don't believe it was a realistic character progression given Sawyer's starting point.

But rapid progression doesn't pin a trainer at the Elite Four level.

A trainer has to win their home region league to be eligible to even challenge the elite four, so given that Sawyer was only ranked in Kalos league top 4 I don't see how he could be considered E4 level.
That's not a correct assessment to be honest. A trainer having an E4 level Pokemon can end up not winning a League because there's another E4 level opponent in the League. Sawyer lost because Ash had an E4 level Pokemon in Ash-Greninja, and Ash lost because Alain had an above E4 level opponent in Mega Charizard X. It's simple as that. And Alain's, Ash's and Sawyer's team aren't E4 level overall. They have only one E4 level Pokemon in their team, that's what I'm saying.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
The doubt comes from the fact that we don't know how much power Diantha was using once she Mega Evolved, and that we don't know how irreparably the results of the battle where skewed due to Diantha's initial holding back. The only way to remove the doubt and have a ocnclusive result would be to have a battle where Diantha went all-out from the very beginning.
Sure we don't know how much power Diantha was using after Mega Gardevoir, but she going all-out with Base Gardevoir obviously wouldn't have dominated against full-form Ash-Greninja, given that she was 'backed into a corner' by Water-veil Ash-Greninja and forced to Mega Evolve. I think this is conclusive.



As I said though, a majority of any important and/or difficult battles (the ones that give the most experience) that an Elite Four/Champion does is going to be full battles. We just never got a chance to see that writing purposes.
True to an extent.



A bit maybe, but there isn't a large discrepancy like you're suggesting exists on Elite Four teams.
I do believe that Base Greninja can decisively win against Hawlucha/Talonflame/Goodra/Noivern in a one on one, and Infernape(without Blaze) can decisively win against Staraptor/Torterra/Buizel/Gliscor/Gible one on one.



You're judging Drapion unfairly. We saw it in no real (or fair) battles, and therefore have no idea what it's method of battling is. As I said before, it is entirely possible that that it relies on a combination of Aaron's strategy and its own speed/power instead of its endurance, which it would have lost the benefit of in the situation it is in. Until we know that that is not the case, there is no way you can fairly claim that that hit was indicative of how it actually battles. Even an Elite Four's ace could have the same problem. Being a powerful Pokémon/skilled battler does not always mean being able to absorb attacks.
Infernape isn't a tank either, and yet an E4 ace like Flint Infernape was absorbing blows with ease. That's why Drapion taking taht match damage makes me sceptical. Honestly, Paul's Drapion showed better tanking than that.


She didn't Mega Evolve against Magnus and Pikachu because she didn't need to due to their lower relative power/skill levels. There was no reason for her to go all out. What I'm saying isn't that she's over-reliant on Mega Evolution, it's the logical assertion that she used her Pokémon to its greatest potential in order to achieve her position, and that means Mega Evolving. The only way you could prove any different is if we actually had a battle where Diantha fought another Champion without Mega Evolving and held her own/won.
Well Diantha's dominance in her battles without Mega Evolution was possibly more than what E4 aces did against similarly stronger/weaker opponents. That's what
I'm trying to say.


It beat Froakie and Fletchling, two unevolved Pokémon who at the time had relatively little training. This was still at the beginning of the region. It was powerful for that point in time, but once we start talking about Elite Four/Champion-level Pokémon, it's strength means absolutely nothing.
So Diantha's Gardevoir is way beyond the level of a Gym Leader's ace, this is evident.



Because her Gardevoir, even without Mega Evolving, would be very much stronger than a second gym leader's Tyrunt, even if it isn't as strong as an Elite Four Pokémon.
It's also to be noted that Pikachu at that point was clear better than Tyrunt. I will say that I have seen similarly strong Pokemon(like Pikachu was at that point), doing better against an E4 ace.



Are you claiming that Torterra near the end of Sinnoh was as weak as, if not weaker than, Froakie and Fletchling at the beginning of Kalos? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?
You mean Torterra effortlessly wrecking Froakie and Fletchling one after another like Tyrunt did? Given Torterra's feats, I'll say I highly doubt it. Plus, Pikachu>Tyrunt as well(it defeated Tyrunt without taking a single hit). I really can't see Torterra being stronger than what Pikachu was at that point. So judging from Torterra vs Hippowdon and Pikachu vs Gardevoir, Gardevoir clearly looks the better Pokemon here, i.e., Gardevoir is better than an E4 ace.



I never said anything to the contrary. All I said in the beginning was that he couldn't win.
Well you said earlier that Ash has a very slim chance of taking out one Pokemon, and recently you said that Ash would be able to take out multiple Pokemon and put up a valiant fight. That was I was saying. :)
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Okay just to make things clear; base Infernape is below E4 lvl (low tier 1) but Blaze Infernape is E4 Ace lvl (high tier 1) due to how it pretty much stomps both Volkner's Luxray and Paul's Motordrive Electivire which are both t-1 lvl Pokémon as well as never loosing once after activating Blaze. In terms of pure power Blaze Infernape could compete with even some of the low tier 0s (upper E4 Aces) but by the time it has Blaze it'll only have at most 1/3rd hp left hence why I rate it a subtier lower. Overall (Blaze) Infernape should atleast be able to have an even match with an E4 non-Ace. Sceptile beat a league sweeping Darkrai that at the time had the majority of its health thanks to DE healing. If that doesn't constitute being somewhere in the E4 spectrum, I don't know what does.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Sure we don't know how much power Diantha was using after Mega Gardevoir, but she going all-out with Base Gardevoir obviously wouldn't have dominated against full-form Ash-Greninja, given that she was 'backed into a corner' by Water-veil Ash-Greninja and forced to Mega Evolve. I think this is conclusive.

Then you're assessment hinges on how powerful Gardevoir is before it Mega Evolves, and we're still debating that. If we had solid evidence on what Gardevoir's power-level is without Mega Evolving, then I would agree with your assessment.

I do believe that Base Greninja can decisively win against Hawlucha/Talonflame/Goodra/Noivern in a one on one, and Infernape(without Blaze) can decisively win against Staraptor/Torterra/Buizel/Gliscor/Gible one on one.

I would say it's debatable, but not clear, and in the case of the Elite Four, you're arguing that there's a clear distinction.

Infernape isn't a tank either, and yet an E4 ace like Flint Infernape was absorbing blows with ease. That's why Drapion taking taht match damage makes me sceptical. Honestly, Paul's Drapion showed better tanking than that.

In the anime a Pokémon is more than its species. Individual Pokémon have individual strength and weaknesses that may or may not reflect that of their species.

Well Diantha's dominance in her battles without Mega Evolution was possibly more than what E4 aces did against similarly stronger/weaker opponents. That's what
I'm trying to say.

We don't know that though. There is no direct comparison that can be made.

So Diantha's Gardevoir is way beyond the level of a Gym Leader's ace, this is evident.

Yes. That doesn't mean Elite Four-level, but still yes.

It's also to be noted that Pikachu at that point was clear better than Tyrunt. I will say that I have seen similarly strong Pokemon(like Pikachu was at that point), doing better against an E4 ace.

Sure Pikachu bested Tyrunt, but it also had a hard time against stronger gym leaders in the region later on, all of whom are unarguably weaker than the Elite Four.

You mean Torterra effortlessly wrecking Froakie and Fletchling one after another like Tyrunt did? Given Torterra's feats, I'll say I highly doubt it. Plus, Pikachu>Tyrunt as well(it defeated Tyrunt without taking a single hit). I really can't see Torterra being stronger than what Pikachu was at that point. So judging from Torterra vs Hippowdon and Pikachu vs Gardevoir, Gardevoir clearly looks the better Pokemon here, i.e., Gardevoir is better than an E4 ace.

Torterra was fighting against much more powerful opponents than the second gym leader of the region. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that it's so weak from.

Well you said earlier that Ash has a very slim chance of taking out one Pokemon, and recently you said that Ash would be able to take out multiple Pokemon and put up a valiant fight. That was I was saying. :)

Okay, fair enough. I suppose I have gotten slightly less harsh on him.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
And Sceptile also hasn't done anything which suggests that it's flat out below E4 level. Infernape took significant damage while beating Aggron and Ninjask, which suggests that it's not E4 level, as a E4 ace would easily power through that kind of Pokemon. And Sceptile easily powered through its opponents in the League without even getting a scratch, just like E4 level opponent would do, e.g. Flint's Infernape vs Ash Buizel, Infernape and Pikachu.

The two battles aren't really comparable. Aggron belonged to Paul, who had consistently been shown to have more powerful Pokémon than Ash up to the league and was stated to be an experienced if unethical, sadistic and immoral trainer who had traveled through several regions before meeting Ash and had a team of experienced fully evolved Pokémon.

The opponents Sawyer's Sceptile powered through belonged to Tierno, a more or less novice trainer who had not had a single on screen win during the XY series and who unlike Sawyer had not made much progress by that point. Not only that but both of Tierno's Pokémon had serious disadvantages - Raichu was rendered or more less useless due to lightning rod. Flint's Infernape by contrast didn't have any such advantages against it's opponents - it was at a disadvantage against Buizel.

Ultimately it's a hierarchy of strength. Sceptile being able to power through opponents that are weaker than it, doesn't make it E4 level. It's ability to power through it's opponents is dependent on who it's opponents are. It's all relative. To go back to my real world comparison. A high school tennis player could potentially overwhelm opponents in their age groups championships, but that would not put them in the league of players competing in the Brisbane open.

That's not a correct assessment to be honest. A trainer having an E4 level Pokemon can end up not winning a League because there's another E4 level opponent in the League. Sawyer lost because Ash had an E4 level Pokemon in Ash-Greninja, and Ash lost because Alain had an above E4 level opponent in Mega Charizard X. It's simple as that. And Alain's, Ash's and Sawyer's team aren't E4 level overall. They have only one E4 level Pokemon in their team, that's what I'm saying.

But I don't agree that either Ash-Greninja or Mega Charizard X are E4 level Pokémon. I would argue that Charizard's loss to Seibold's Blastoise makes it clear it's not E4 level (I'm discounting Malva because of the circumstances). And given that Mega Charizard X continually beat Greninja, that puts Greninja out of E4 league too.

Even if I were to concede Mega Charizard X were E4 level or close to, the fact it never lost a battle to Greninja still puts Greninja out of it's league. If Ash-Greninja can't beat Mega Charizard X how could it beat any or any other E4 Pokémon. And if Mega Sceptile couldn't beat Ash-Greninja then it's certainly out of E4 league
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Then you're assessment hinges on how powerful Gardevoir is before it Mega Evolves, and we're still debating that. If we had solid evidence on what Gardevoir's power-level is without Mega Evolving, then I would agree with your assessment.

Okay, so the point is about Base Gardevoir's power level I guess.

I would say it's debatable, but not clear, and in the case of the Elite Four, you're arguing that there's a clear distinction.
Infernape got some impressive wins against Volkner's Jolteon and Paul's Aggron/Ninjask so I think it can decisively win against the remaining Sinnoh team members. Base Greninja doesn't have that many feats, but iirc, it defeated Sawyer's Clawitzer with a single hit, who took out Noivern+Hawlucha (and Clawitzer was pretty healthy after using Heal Pulse to heal itself). Clawitzer would give any of Ash's Kalos team members a tough time in a 1 on 1 and possibly win, so Greninja defeating it with a single hit shows its superiority over the other Kalos team members. Yeah so I'll say that Infernape and Greninja even without their power-ups are remarkably better than the other members of the regional teams. Could be the same in the case of the E4.


In the anime a Pokémon is more than its species. Individual Pokémon have individual strength and weaknesses that may or may not reflect that of their species.
Probably, but even Paul's Drapion also took multiple hits without flinching. So comparing this to Aaron's Drapion, a Pokemon of the exact same species, an E4 non-ace, taking that much damage from a TR Pokemon, makes me consider about its strength, an by an extent E4 non-aces. I know Aaron wasn't there, but still....



We don't know that though. There is no direct comparison that can be made.
Well, I think I have given some comparisons which I'll discuss down below.



Sure Pikachu bested Tyrunt, but it also had a hard time against stronger gym leaders in the region later on, all of whom are unarguably weaker than the Elite Four.
Yeah, but those struggles were possibly against Korrina's Lucario/Mega Lucario(who got 100 wins in a row) and against Clemont who battled very tactically in that Gym battle. But those struggles weren't comparable to its struggle against Diantha's Gardevoir, where it couldn't even even touch it.

Torterra was fighting against much more powerful opponents than the second gym leader of the region. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that it's so weak from.
Not going to say that it's weak, but it didn't win against of the strong opponents it fought. It lost pretty effortlessly to Volkner's Electivire, iirc. I can't see how there is anything that suggests that Torterra was better than Pikachu was in Kalos at the point(with impressive wins against Viola and Grant's Aces).

This same Pikachu at that point could even touch Diantha's Gardevoir whereas Torterra managed to land a damage inducing hit on Bertha's Hippowdon. Isn't the superiority of Diantha's Gardevoir over Bertha's Hippowdon, an E4 ace, evident here. Plus, Gardevoir was also effortlessly toying with Base Greninja (who is obviously a pretty decent Pokemon) before the transformation happened.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
The two battles aren't really comparable. Aggron belonged to Paul, who had consistently been shown to have more powerful Pokémon than Ash up to the league and was stated to be an experienced if unethical, sadistic and immoral trainer who had traveled through several regions before meeting Ash and had a team of experienced fully evolved Pokémon.

The opponents Sawyer's Sceptile powered through belonged to Tierno, a more or less novice trainer who had not had a single on screen win during the XY series and who unlike Sawyer had not made much progress by that point. Not only that but both of Tierno's Pokémon had serious disadvantages - Raichu was rendered or more less useless due to lightning rod. Flint's Infernape by contrast didn't have any such advantages against it's opponents - it was at a disadvantage against Buizel.
Can't see how they aren't comparable when Paul Aggron and Ninjask also have zero feats. Your arguement is that Tierno's Pokemon lack feats(those that's not completely true). Paul being a powerful trainer doesn't mean that all of his Pokemon are that powerful. And Infernape took significant damage from battling them.

Tierno's Pokemon being weak is also baseless. Tierno also made it to the Quarterfinals of the League, just like Paul. Tierno's Blastoise one-shotted Slurpuff, who tied to Goodra, and Raichu defeated Aegislash, who gave Pikachu a tough time. So clearly they were no pushovers by any means. Sure type advantage is a factor, but that doesn't always guarantee you easy wins (Infernape didn't defeat Aggron and Ninjask so easily despite having massive type advantages). But Sceptile just mauled through those Pokemon- Blastoise got two-shotted and Raichu got one-shotted. Adding to this Sceptile's easy victory over Pikachu I can't see how Flint's Infernape's performance over Ash's Pokemon is massively better.

Utimately it's a hierarchy of strength. Sceptile being able to power through opponents that are weaker than it, doesn't make it E4 level. It's ability to power through it's opponents is dependent on who it's opponents are. It's all relative. To go back to my real world comparison. A high school tennis player could potentially overwhelm opponents in their age groups championships, but that would not put them in the league of players competing in the Brisbane open.
Flint's Infernape also powered through opponents that are weaker than it. So it's also not E4 level, eh!



But I don't agree that either Ash-Greninja or Mega Charizard X are E4 level Pokémon. I would argue that Charizard's loss to Seibold's Blastoise makes it clear it's not E4 level (I'm discounting Malva because of the circumstances). And given that Mega Charizard X continually beat Greninja, that puts Greninja out of E4 league too.

Even if I were to concede Mega Charizard X were E4 level or close to, the fact it never lost a battle to Greninja still puts Greninja out of it's league. If Ash-Greninja can't beat Mega Charizard X how could it beat any or any other E4 Pokémon. And if Mega Sceptile couldn't beat Ash-Greninja then it's certainly out of E4 league

Don't know why you are not understanding that ME specials were signifying Alain's progression- from losing to the E4 in ME-1 to beating an E4 in ME-4. Mega Charizard X is flat out above E4 level since ME-4- defeated an E4 mega despite being weakened by nine Megas beforehand, went toe to toe with 50% Zygarde. Ash-Greninja's performance against Diantha's Mega Gardevoir is more than enough to put it on E4 level. No Pokemon has put up that kind of a fight against a Champion's ace so far and pushed it so hard by momentarily overpowering it and dealing such damage. E4 aces have got destroyed by Champion aces- Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted by Cynthia's Garchomp, Wikstrom's Mega Scizor got destroyed by Diantha's Mega Gardevoir, Flint's Infernape put up a half-decent fight before losing to Cynthia's Garchomp. Ash-Greninja fought clearly better than them and so it's definitely E4 level. It's fight against Mega Charizard X also doesn't contradict this anyway- it possibly did as good or better than Mega Houndoom considering it lasted longer and Mega Charizard X wasn't as exhausted like battling 9 Megas before, and Alain said that fight took him to new heights. There are discrepancies between E4 level Pokemon. They are all not equal- Mega Charizard X and Ash-Greninja are E4 level Pokemon and Mega Sceptile also probably is, with each one of them being above/below each other.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Can't see how they aren't comparable when Paul Aggron and Ninjask also have zero feats. Your arguement is that Tierno's Pokemon lack feats(those that's not completely true). Paul being a powerful trainer doesn't mean that all of his Pokemon are that powerful. And Infernape took significant damage from battling them.

The point is, Sceptile isn't necessarily stronger than Infernape simply because it had an easier time in the Tierno battle than Infernape did against Aggron.

Tierno's Pokemon being weak is also baseless. Tierno also made it to the Quarterfinals of the League, just like Paul. Tierno's Blastoise one-shotted Slurpuff, who tied to Goodra, and Raichu defeated Aegislash, who gave Pikachu a tough time. So clearly they were no pushovers by any means. Sure type advantage is a factor, but that doesn't always guarantee you easy wins (Infernape didn't defeat Aggron and Ninjask so easily despite having massive type advantages). But Sceptile just mauled through those Pokemon- Blastoise got two-shotted and Raichu got one-shotted. Adding to this Sceptile's easy victory over Pikachu I can't see how Flint's Infernape's performance over Ash's Pokemon is massively better.

In Raichu's case the type advantage did guarantee the easy win. There was almost nothing Raichu could have done to win that battle.

In any case I never said Tierno's Pokémon were pushovers - I simply said he had started as a novice like Sawyer and didn't appeared to have progressed much throughout the series.

It's all relative again. Sceptile was Sawyer's starter and presumably the one he'd spent the most time training. Logically it would be stronger than his other Pokémon. Add the type advantages and the Mega Evolution the result is not unsurprising.

That Sceptile got an easy win against Pikachu I dispute because Pikachu had already battled twice in that match - plus you've said the Pikachu that battled Charizard could beat base Sceptile. In any case getting an easy win against Pikachu doesn't make a Pokémon on par with Flint's Infernape. Korrina's Lucario, Viola's Surskit and Clemont's Luxray also beat Pikachu, but none of them are E4 level. Even Lysandre's Gyarados took out all of Ash's team expect Pikachu and Greninja.

Don't know why you are not understanding that ME specials were signifying Alain's progression- from losing to the E4 in ME-1 to beating an E4 in ME-4. Mega Charizard X is flat out above E4 level since ME-4- defeated an E4 mega despite being weakened by nine Megas beforehand, went toe to toe with 50% Zygarde.

I'm of the view that Malva threw the match to protect Alain. I'll give you the point that there's no direct evidence for that proposition but there's no evidence to expressly discount it either. It's the premise I'm going to work on.

Ash-Greninja's performance against Diantha's Mega Gardevoir is more than enough to put it on E4 level. No Pokemon has put up that kind of a fight against a Champion's ace so far and pushed it so hard by momentarily overpowering it and dealing such damage. E4 aces have got destroyed by Champion aces- Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted by Cynthia's Garchomp, Wikstrom's Mega Scizor got destroyed by Diantha's Mega Gardevoir, Flint's Infernape put up a half-decent fight before losing to Cynthia's Garchomp.

Ash-Greninja ultimately didn't win against Gardevoir so landing one attack isn't enough to say that it's E4 level. After all even Paul's Chimchar managed to land attacks on Cynthia's Garchomp. There's not telling what would have happened had the battle continued. E4 level should mean being able to decisively and repeatedly win a matches against other E4 Pokémon and Greninja has never done that

As for Lucina and Wikstrom - we only saw extremely brief snippets from their battles with the Champion. There's no way of knowing what had happened before or how many hits had been landed by each side before the final blow.

Ash-Greninja fought clearly better than them and so it's definitely E4 level.

Given we don't really know how either Lucian's Bronzong or Wikstrom's Mega Scizor fought, it can't be conclusively said that Greninja fought better.

In any case, Ash-Greninja went onto to loose spectacularly to Wulfric's Avlugga a few episodes later, and as a gym leaders Pokémon it was definitely not E4 level.

It's fight against Mega Charizard X also doesn't contradict this anyway- it possibly did as good or better than Mega Houndoom considering it lasted longer and Mega Charizard X wasn't as exhausted like battling 9 Megas before, and Alain said that fight took him to new heights. There are discrepancies between E4 level Pokemon. They are all not equal- Mega Charizard X and Ash-Greninja are E4 level Pokemon and Mega Sceptile also probably is, with each one of them being above/below each other.

Alain saying the fight took him to new heights doesn't really mean anything as it's not clear what he meant by that.

As to whether Greninja did better than Houndoom I can't really say as I'm working the premise Malva threw the match.

The 9 Megas aren't necessarily a huge feat as it's not clear how strong they actually were - Mega doesn't equal invincible. Hawlutcha beat Astrid's Mega Absol and Pikachu took down Korrina's Mega Lucario. They could still have been average Pokémon even with Mega Evolution.

Regardless of whether Charizard X is an E4 Pokémon or not, Greninja still never really came close to beating it. Even if I conceded Charizard X and Ash-Greninja were E4 level, Ash-Greninja would still be barely E4 level, far from guaranteed to win any battle with another E4 Pokémon. It's not an E4 level Pokémon unless it can beat other E4 Pokémon repeatedly.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
The point is, Sceptile isn't necessarily stronger than Infernape simply because it had an easier time in the Tierno battle than Infernape did against Aggron.
Uh, yes it is. That proves that Sceptile is on a different level. Infernape also had a massive type-disadvantage over Aggron and Ninjask, so you can't use the type advantage excuse here.




In Raichu's case the type advantage did guarantee the easy win. There was almost nothing Raichu could have done to win that battle.
Raichu's Focus Blast also got sliced through by a Dragon Claw took Raichu out in a single hit. Focus Blast is a Fighting type move and Dragon Claw is a neutral move offensively against Electric types. Mega Sceptile's power was clearly evident.

In any case I never said Tierno's Pokémon were pushovers - I simply said he had started as a novice like Sawyer and didn't appeared to have progressed much throughout the series.
And still made it to Top 8 of the League.

It's all relative again. Sceptile was Sawyer's starter and presumably the one he'd spent the most time training. Logically it would be stronger than his other Pokémon. Add the type advantages and the Mega Evolution the result is not unsurprising.
The dominance is surprising though. Infernape having a massive type-advantage over Aggron and Ninjask didn't show that dominance.

That Sceptile got an easy win against Pikachu I dispute because Pikachu had already battled twice in that match - plus you've said the Pikachu that battled Charizard could beat base Sceptile. In any case 0 an easy win against Pikachu doesn't make a Pokémon on par with Flint's Infernape. Korrina's Lucario, Viola's Surskit and Clemont's Luxray also beat Pikachu, but none of them are E4 level. Even Lysandre's Gyarados took out all of Ash's team expect Pikachu and Greninja.
Are you seriously suggesting that Lysandre's Mega Gyarados is not E4 level? It took a combination of Mega Charizard X, Ash-Greninja and Pikachu to bring Lysandre's Mega Gyarados down. And Base Sceptile is obviously above Sawyer battle Pikachu(not Alain battle Pikachu), and Mega Sceptile, it will be way more stronger. And this is League Pikachu we're taking about, Pikachu is usually at its peak at the League.




I'm of the view that Malva threw the match to protect Alain. I'll give you the point that there's no direct evidence for that proposition but there's no evidence to expressly discount it either. It's the premise I'm going to work on.
And this was never mentioned, so no. If the writers were intending to imply that then they would have mentioned that someway obviously.

Ash-Greninja ultimately didn't win against Gardevoir so landing one attack isn't enough to say that it's E4 level. After all even Paul's Chimchar managed to land attacks on Cynthia's Garchomp. There's not telling what would have happened had the battle continued. E4 level should mean being able to decisively and repeatedly win a matches against other E4 Pokémon and Greninja has never done that
I don't know if you're being serious here or not. Are you seriously suggesting that Paul Chimchar landing a Fire Spin on Cynthia's Garchomp which did basically nothing is comparable to Ash-Greninja bulldozing through Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball and sending it flying back in pain knocking it down onto the ground? Ash-Greninja went toe to toe with Mega Gardevoir for about 7-8 minutes, equally matching Mega Gardevoir's attacks, repeatedly pushing Mega Gardevoir back and ultimately sending Mega Gardevoir flying back overpowering it making it yell in pain. No Pokemon in the show has pushed a Champion's Pokemon that hard, not even E4 aces. It's an E4 level worthy feat without doubt. No one is saying that Ash-Greninja beat Mega Gardevoir, if it did so, it'd be Champion level. But since it pushed it so hard, it's E4 level without doubt, no E4 level Pokemon has gone that far against a Champion's Pokemon.

As for Lucina and Wikstrom - we only saw extremely brief snippets from their battles with the Champion. There's no way of knowing what had happened before or how many hits had been landed by each side before the final blow.
In Lucian's case, we saw Garchomp effortlessly blocking a Flash Cannon and knocking out Bronzong with a Giga Impact, it was most probably a curbstomp, whereas in Ash-Greninja's case, Mega Gardevoir was unable to block Ash-Greninja's attacks and got hurt. In Wikstrom's Mega Scizor's case, yes we saw the battle from the beginning and it was an absolute curbstomp. In Flint's Infernape's case, it put up a half-decent fight but never did so well as Ash-Greninja like momentarily overpowering Garchomp and knocking it down to the ground.



Given we don't really know how either Lucian's Bronzong or Wikstrom's Mega Scizor fought, it can't be conclusively said that Greninja fought better.
Yes, it's conclusive. Ash-Greninja fought way better.

In any case, Ash-Greninja went onto to loose spectacularly to Wulfric's Avlugga a few episodes later, and as a gym leaders Pokémon it was definitely not E4 level.
You can't use that as an example because Ash was battling at his best and was getting obsessed with power. That was just a rare off-day. Ash and Greninja battle best when they are fully in sync. In the rematch Ash-Greninja wrecked a much stronger Pokemon, Mega Abomasnow.
If you use that example, then Charizard is also a trash Pokemon because it lost to Dusclops.

Alain saying the fight took him to new heights doesn't really mean anything as it's not clear what he meant by that.
Alain already reached a new heights by beating an E4 mega beforehand, and even after that if he said that, it means something.

As to whether Greninja did better than Houndoom I can't really say as I'm working the premise Malva threw the match.
If Malva threw the match it would've been mentioned in all probability.

The 9 Megas aren't necessarily a huge feat as it's not clear how strong they actually were - Mega doesn't equal invincible. Hawlutcha beat Astrid's Mega Absol and Pikachu took down Korrina's Mega Lucario. They could still have been average Pokémon even with Mega Evolution.
The Mega Venusaur trainer dealt quite some damage to Mega Charizard X. By Occam Razor, the rest were possibly that much tough.

Regardless of whether Charizard X is an E4 Pokémon or not, Greninja still never really came close to beating it. Even if I conceded Charizard X and Ash-Greninja were E4 level, Ash-Greninja would still be barely E4 level, far from guaranteed to win any battle with another E4 Pokémon. It's not an E4 level Pokémon unless it can beat other E4 Pokémon repeatedly.

I do believe Mega Charizard X is above E4 level (judging from ME-4). And considering the circumstances Ash-Greninja possibly did slightly better than Mega Houndoom. It great fight with Mega Gardevoir further reinforces the issue.
 
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If you want to accept the premise that Ash-Greninja isn't E4 level, you have to accept that
1) Malva threw the match, which has zero evidence to back it up
2) Diantha mega evolved her Gardevoir for no reason, since if AG is below E4, he would be quite far below champion level. Unless Diantha is incapable of judging how strong her opponent is, there is no need to mega evolve (even Paul's Torterra was a complete joke compared to champion aces)
3) Alain saying that battling with AG "takes me to new heights" after beating Malva is not clear enough to be considered evidence, even though it sounds pretty obvious. I can't think of anything else it can mean.

Sure, it's possible that AG is not E4 level... But if you are accepting all these assertions to prove your premise, that sounds more like confirmation bias to me...
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
If you want to accept the premise that Ash-Greninja isn't E4 level, you have to accept that
1) Malva threw the match, which has zero evidence to back it up
2) Diantha mega evolved her Gardevoir for no reason, since if AG is below E4, he would be quite far below champion level. Unless Diantha is incapable of judging how strong her opponent is, there is no need to mega evolve (even Paul's Torterra was a complete joke compared to champion aces)
3) Alain saying that battling with AG "takes me to new heights" after beating Malva is not clear enough to be considered evidence, even though it sounds pretty obvious. I can't think of anything else it can mean.

Sure, it's possible that AG is not E4 level... But if you are accepting all these assertions to prove your premise, that sounds more like confirmation bias to me...

Not only that, plus there is clear evidence in XY&Z25 that Diantha was pressurized to Mega Evolve Gardevoir due to Base Gardevoir struggling against Ash-Greninja. And even after Mega Evolving, Ash-Greninja momentarily overpowered Mega Gardevoir sending it flying back yelling in pain, significantly gaining the upper hand, which E4 aces like Flint's Infernape were unable to do against Cynthia's Garchomp.
 
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