Ash Vs the Elite 4

[345ash-greninja]

Depends on who the E4 is. Depends if Sceptile & Infernape can beat one without needing the help of other Pokemon contributing by lowering them down. Certainly? Nah. Gamble? Yeah.

Blaze Infernape has shown honestly more power that E4 base aces in Blaze(except for Flint's Infernape possibly), the only reason it will be not able to beat E4 base aces is because Blaze activates at low health, but that should be enough to beat E4 non-aces.

Sceptile feat against Darkrai pretty much tells that while it would possibly barely loose an E4 base ace, it should obviously able to beat an E4 non-ace.

And what we saw from Ash-Greninja and Pikachu in Kalos, they both definitely would be able to beat an E4 base ace, with Ash-Greninja possibly being able to beat an E4 Mega ace as well. BW Charizard (assuming it improved a lot from BF should be also to potentially beat an E4 non-ace.

Overall, it'll be a very close fight, and Ash only loses if the E4 member has a Mega.

 

[BladexFade]

Blaze Infernape has shown honestly more power that E4 base aces in Blaze(except for Flint's Infernape possibly), the only reason it will be not able to beat E4 base aces is because Blaze activates at low health, but that should be enough to beat E4 non-aces.

Sceptile feat against Darkrai pretty much tells that while it would possibly barely loose an E4 base ace, it should obviously able to beat an E4 non-ace.

And what we saw from Ash-Greninja and Pikachu in Kalos, they both definitely would be able to beat an E4 base ace, with Ash-Greninja possibly being able to beat an E4 Mega ace as well. BW Charizard (assuming it improved a lot from BF should be also to potentially beat an E4 non-ace.

Overall, it'll be a very close fight, and Ash only loses if the E4 member has a Mega.

Yeah, and Astrid's Absol and Alain's Charizard(ME Act) has shown more power than most Champions and E4's combined. How many times have we seen in the anime where low tier trainers have shown more power than even the Champions Ace making small cracks in the ground? Just because Blaze looks powerful doesn't mean it is a guaranteed it can defeat a E4's ace or non-ace.

Naw. Sceptile needed help from two other Pokemon to weary Darkrai down. That alone says Sceptile by himself isn't taking down an ace or non-ace without any help as it is depicted. Sceptile is still not ready.

Ash would still lose regardless if the E4 has a mega or not, depending on the trainer, as Navin pointed out. Overall only Pikachu, Ash-Greninja, & possibly Charizard are the only ones who have a real chance against some aces and non-aces by themselves, but that is still gamble.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Yeah, and Astrid's Absol and Alain's Charizard(ME Act) has shown more power than most Champions and E4's combined. How many times have we seen in the anime where low tier trainers have shown more power than even the Champions Ace making small cracks in the ground? Just because Blaze looks powerful doesn't mean it is a guaranteed it can defeat a non-ace E4 or an E4 tier.

Well, Infernape literally curbstomped Luxray and Electivire after Blaze activated (of whom both were very strong Pokemon), that shows its power clearly.

Naw. Sceptile needed help from two other Pokemon to weary Darkrai down. That alone says Sceptile by himself isn't taking down an ace or non-ace without any help as it is depicted. Sceptile is still not ready.

Those two Pokemon were nowhere near Darkrai's level to deal major damage to it, they dealt some damage. Deny it or not, Darkrai used Dreameater on a full health Heracross, OHKO'ing it, which means it had majority of its health back. Sceptile did most of the work, and that shows that it definitely could beat an E4 non-ace, if not more.

Overall only Pikachu, Ash-Greninja, & possibly Charizard are the only ones who have a real chance of winning against some aces and non-aces by themselves.

Based on Mega Gardevoir/MCX fights, Ash-Greninja should be able to beat E4 base aces, and put up an even fight with E4 Mega aces. Pikachu, based on Lysandre, Alain and Tobias fights should be able to beat to E4 base aces(but lose to E4 Mega aces), and BW Charizard, considering its improvement from BF, should potentially be able to beat E4 base aces/put up a close fight. That's how I see it. And remember, these three should be able to beat E4 non-aces pretty easily.

 

[Genaller]

Basicallly this is how I see Ash vs an E4 trainer going:

Sceptile vs E4 non-Ace 1 -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs E4 non-Ace 2 -> E4 non-Ace 2
(Blaze) Infernape vs E4 non-Ace 2 -> Blaze Infernape
Blaze Infernape vs E4 non-Ace 3 -> E4 non-Ace 3
Snorlax vs E4 non-Ace 3 -> Draw
Charizard vs E4 non-Ace 4 -> Charizard
Charizard vs Z-move E4 Pokémon -> Z-move E4 Pokémon
Z-move Peakachu vs Z-move E4 Pokémon -> Peakachu
Peakachu vs E4 Mega Pokémon -> E4 Mega Pokémon
Ash-Greninja vs E4 Mega Pokémon -> Ash-Greninja

I'm sure that the Z-move and Mega Sotne holding Pokémon will be the 2 strongest of E4s/RCs but the Ace could vary from trainer to trainer (like Lance would have Dragonite as the Z-move Ace and Red Gyarados as the Mega).

 

[BladexFade]

Well, Infernape literally curbstomped Luxray and Electivire after Blaze activated (of whom both were very strong Pokemon), that shows its power clearly.



Those two Pokemon were nowhere near Darkrai's level to deal major damage to it, they dealt some damage. Deny it or not, Darkrai used Dreameater on a full health Heracross, OHKO'ing it, which means it had majority of its health back. Sceptile did most of the work, and that shows that it definitely could beat an E4 non-ace, if not more.


Based on Mega Gardevoir/MCX fights, Ash-Greninja should be able to beat E4 base aces, and put up an even fight with E4 Mega aces. Pikachu, based on Lysandre, Alain and Tobias fights should be able to beat to E4 base aces(but lose to E4 Mega aces), and BW Charizard, considering its improvement from BF, should potentially be able to beat E4 base aces/put up a close fight. That's how I see it. And remember, these three should be able to beat E4 non-aces pretty easily.

Again, it is a gamble. It shows it has the power to go up against and beat some non-ace E4 and that is just it. I'm going to say this, come back to me with real substance when Blaze-Infernape beats an actual E4 Ace & non-ace members.

And neither is Sceptile anywhere close to being near Darkrai's level(which I also like how you downplay Heracross and Gible's feat who were not only able to push back Darkrai but it also felt their attacks.) Also, anime=/=game mechanics. Regardless if Heracross was full health it doesn't mean Darkrai healed up a lot since you don't know how much health a full healthy Darkrai is. Once again, Ash's Torterra losing in one-shot even AFTER Torterra was stated to have fully recovered and purposely lended the opportunity by Paul to recovered fully.

I'm not going to bother whether or not A-G, Pikachu or Charizard can defeat E4 non-aces. Entirely a subjective answer. Because I could rip apart using Pikachu as an example, who had trouble with beating Alain's Metagross and then lost afterward. Am I supposed to believe Pikachu(or Charizard) is going to have an easy time with an actual E4 member non-ace Pokemon(not to mention having multiple E4 non-ace level Pokemon in their disposal too)? Nah, dude. It's a 50/50 depending on the trainer.

EDIT: And no, nowhere shown Sceptile doing most of the work; it putted the same amount of work as Gible and Heracross,who chipped it to weakened it. That is some serious bias work if you think Sceptile did all/most of the work. I also forgot to mentioned you also don't know how much healing moves, like DE, in the anime gives back to the user.

 

[Cariostar]

Depends on what E4 member are you taking about, I mean, Aaron's Vespiqueen and Drapion were stomped by James's Carnivine and Jessie's Seviper.

As for Ash-Greninja vs Mega-Gardevoir, I will only say that if Diantha really was trying to beat Ash during that fight, then she, as a champion, disappoint me a lot. Not just because her Pokemon lack of firepower, but because Diantha after Mega-evolving Gardevoir just keepet in an stationary position spamming Shadow ball like it was Mega-Gardevoir's only attack aside from Reflect. It was just stupid, more knowing that Diantha already knew that Shadow ball couldn't do much in that fight.

 

[345ash-greninja]

And neither is Sceptile anywhere close to being near Darkrai's level(which I also like how you downplay Heracross and Gible's feat who were not only able to push back Darkrai but it also felt their attacks.) Also, anime=/=game mechanics. Regardless if Heracross was full health it doesn't mean Darkrai healed up a lot since you don't know how much health a full healthy Darkrai is. Once again, Ash's Torterra losing in one-shot even AFTER Torterra was stated to have fully recovered and purposely lended the opportunity by Paul to recovered fully.

Sceptile was always depicted as a way stronger Pokemon than Heracross/Gible so obviously he would do most of the work. Sceptile defeated two of Spencer's Pokemon while Heracross couldn't even defeat one. And yeah, Anime=/=Game Mechanics isn't an arguement when Heracross fainted with one Dreameater(which clearly shows Dreameater drained all of its health). Not to mention Darkrai used Dreameater on Sceptile for a while as well. The Torterra point is moot
You seriously comparing Darkrai's endurance to Torterra's endurance? Pin Missile was simply too much for it.

Literally everybody in the stadium was stunned when Sceptile took out Darkrai, which means the narrative intent was clearly that Sceptile did most of the work.

EDIT: And no, nowhere shown Sceptile doing most of the work; it putted the same amount of work as Gible and Heracross,who chipped it to weakened it. That is some serious bias work if you think Sceptile did all/most of the work.

Nah, it was clearly depicted that Sceptile did most of the work.

 

[Genaller]

Depends on what E4 member are you taking about, I mean, Aaron's Vespiqueen and Drapion were stomped by James's Carnivine and Jessie's Seviper.

As for Ash-Greninja vs Mega-Gardevoir, I will only say that if Diantha really was trying to beat Ash during that fight, then she, as a champion, disappoint me a lot. Not just because her Pokemon lack of firepower, but because Diantha after Mega-evolving Gardevoir just keepet in an stationary position spamming Shadow ball like it was Mega-Gardevoir's only attack aside from Reflect. It was just stupid, more knowing that Diantha already knew that Shadow ball couldn't do much in that fight.

Well in that same episode they say that Aaron was getting a title shot because he "had risen above the E4" so take that to mean what you will.

First off I don't think Diantha's a weak Champion since Mega Gardevoir and Mega Metagross were depicted as equals in the TF finale. Also no one actually believes A-G could take Mega Gardevoir if Diantha was going try-hard but yes I do think he could beat Base Gardevoir and also based on Alain's statements in the KL finals I think it's reasonable to conclude that A-G could fight evenly with E4 Mega Pokémon.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Well in that same episode they say that Aaron was getting a title shot because he "had risen above the E4" so take that to mean what you will.

Also, Aaron wasn't there to guide Drapion and Vespiqueen when it was attacked by TR Pokemon, so it's reasonable.

 

[BladexFade]

Sceptile was always depicted as a way stronger Pokemon than Heracross/Gible so obviously he would do most of the work. Sceptile defeated two of Spencer's Pokemon while Heracross couldn't even defeat one. And yeah, Anime=/=Game Mechanics isn't an arguement when Heracross fainted with one Dreameater(which clearly shows Dreameater drained all of its health). Not to mention Darkrai used Dreameater on Sceptile for a while as well. The Torterra point is moot
You seriously comparing Darkrai's endurance to Torterra's endurance? Pin Missile was simply too much for it.

Literally everybody in the stadium was stunned when Sceptile took out Darkrai, which means the narrative intent was clearly that Sceptile did most of the work.

Nah, it was clearly depicted that Sceptile did most of the work.

None of this debunks any of my points. Sceptile is not Ash's strongest Pokemon nor near Darkrai's level. Common sense, again, supports that Darkrai lost with a single attack move because it was weakened still(whom you downplay Heracross and Gible doing supereffective damage to it). No, I brung up a comparable example(which I can find more examples of in the anime other than Torterrta) healing moves not equaling game logic, in which you tried to use. It's moot to you because you don't have an argument against it when in actuality it isn't — full health/almost full health(your baseless theory). Once again it proves you objectively, like anyone else who tries to claim Darkrai was full health or almost healthy, don't know how much healing moves are in the anime gives back to the user(or how much is a Pokemon full hp is), unless stated in anime.

Yeah, no. All three were given the same equivalent amount of work to Darkrai as the scenes were depicted.

 

[345ash-greninja]

None of this debunks any of my points. Sceptile is not Ash's strongest Pokemon nor near Darkrai's level. Common sense, again, supports that Darkrai lost with a single attack move because it was weakened still(whom you downplay Heracross and Gible doing some damage to it). No, I brung up a comparable example(which I can find more examples of in the anime other than Torterrta) healing moves not equaling game logic, in which you tried to use. It's moot to you because you don't have an argument against it when in actuality it isn't — full health/almost full health(your baseless theory). Once again it proves you objectively, like anyone else who tries to claim Darkrai was full health or almost healthy, don't know how much healing moves are in the anime gives back to the user(or how much is a Pokemon full hp is), unless stated in anime.

Sceptile is definitely leagues ahead of Heracross and Gible and there is no point in denying this. He would obviously do most of the work. And from where you are getting that Darkrai took massive damage from those attacks when it was visibly looking fine after those battles?

And you can't deny that Dreameater is healing move and it did drain all the health from Heracross in one go, so it's very much possible that Darkrai got most of its health back. And the Torterra point is moot because Pin Missile was too much for it to handle, period. Drapion could easily dispatch Buizel and Staraptor, so it isn't unreasonable that it could one-shot Torterra with its spam move, Pin Missile.

Yeah, no. All three were given the same equivalent amount of work to Darkrai as the scenes were depicted.

Definitely not. Sceptile is definitely way stronger than those two and it would obviously do most of the work. Sceptile's clean strikes with Leaf Blades were explicitly shown in that scene, which definitely shows it dealt major damage in bringing it down. Plus, everyone being stunned that Sceptile took out Darkrai shows that the narrative intent was clearly that Sceptile did most of the work.

 

[BladexFade]

Sceptile is definitely leagues ahead of Heracross and Gible and there is no point in denying this. He would obviously do most of the work. And from where you are getting that Darkrai took massive damage from those attacks when it was visibly looking fine after those battles?

And you can't deny that Dreameater is healing move and it did drain all the health from Heracross in one go, so it's very much possible that Darkrai got most of its health back. And the Torterra point is moot because Pin Missile was too much for it to handle, period. Drapion could easily dispatch Buizel and Staraptor, so it isn't unreasonable that it could one-shot Torterra with its spam move, Pin Missile.

Smh. This is starting to turn out like Sawk(&Dragonite) vs Krokodile(who needed the help of other Pokemon to help drain its opponents stamina down) 2.0 debate. Torterra point isn't moot. But deny it all you want, you probably think Sawyer's Slaking was at "full health" or "almost full health" because of all of the scuffs marks disappeared from its body despite it being made abundantly clear Slaking recovered several times but was still heavily wounded/feeling Hawlucha's "half-*** attacks."

I'll use these same points that you keep trying to argue.

1)How does Ash's not even strongest Pokemon or comparable to Darkrai self OHKO an OP and undefeated Darkrai whether it was healthy or almost healthy with one attack move? Sceptile is not that good or strong. If it was, Sceptile would be put leagues above Pikachu and Charizard. We know from the anime and animators that Heracross's super effective Megahorn and Gible's supereffective Rock Smash did damage. We know how the animation looks for Pokemon who didn't receive damage, receive too much damage, receive too much damage, barely felt an attack and so forth. Darkrai felt and got pushed back by both attacks.

2) No-one knows how much health a Pokemon gets back when using moves like these unless a spectator says so. Bringing in-game logic or math to explain makes you look like a halfwit and what you have to say the moment you do. In games, we get back more health depending on the total damage we do—game mechanic. Pkmn HP works differently than in the game. It doesn't work like this in the anime. So trying to estimate and then actually claim it was almost healthy is some serious subjective, baseless stretching.

3) You really have no idea how many healing based moves have been used in the anime, some of which have been confirmed (by spectators) to fully restore Pkmns health yet still get knocked out in 1-2hits. Brandon's Regice was literally stated to recover its health fully after using rest like nothing happened yet it was OHKO by Pikachu's volt tackle. No matter how much a [Pokemon] recovers from a healing move it doesn't change the fact it still feels damage prior to recovering.

Definitely not. Sceptile is definitely way stronger than those two and it would obviously do most of the work. Sceptile's clean strikes with Leaf Blades were explicitly shown in that scene, which definitely shows it dealt major damage in bringing it down. Plus, everyone is stunned that Sceptile took out Darkrai shows that the narrative intent was clearly that Sceptile did most of the work.

Definitely yes. And this is such poor logic, & none of those points you put hard emphasis on hardly matters. That can be said for any kind of moves in the anime. This is your entire argument: You might as well start arguing "Krokodile is way stronger than Levanny because it did most of the work vs Sawk because it is stronger than it, so let's discredit Levanny feat from contributing to Sawk's defeat." Or "Greninja is way stronger than Hawlucha and Goodra, it did most of the work against vs Alain's Bisharp because it is stronger than those two, so let's discredit and downplay those two mons feat in contributing to Bisharp's (stamina) loss." That's your argument. You rather discredit & downplay Heracross and Gible's supereffective feat(whom even the spectator/commentator outright points out how both of there attacks were powerful enough to cause damage).

Don't go off trying to twist the narrative intent to fit your agenda. Sceptile didn't do most of the work. The argument is asinine. It, like everyone else, failed to land their attack(s), each one other than Torkoal was able to contribute in landing a direct hit which some were even SE moves, & even outright stated those attacks were powerful.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Smh. This is starting to turn out like Sawk(&Dragonite) vs Krokodile(who needed the help of other Pokemon to help drain its opponents stamina down) 2.0 debate. Torterra point isn't moot. But deny it all you want, you probably think Sawyer's Slaking was at "full health" or "almost full health" because of all of the scuffs marks disappeared from its body despite it being made abundantly clear Slaking recovered several times but was still heavily wounded/feeling Hawlucha's "half-*** attacks."

Hawlucha, hit Slaking so many times with super effective moves so obviously Slack Off isn't going to heal all the health.

Darkrai too 2 hits, from Pokemon which were way below it's level, so it's completely a different story. And Sceptile is one of Ash's regional aces, already established as a powerhouse in BF, it does make sense if it's able to beat Darkrai.

I'll use these same points that you keep trying to argue.

1)How does Ash's not even strongest Pokemon or comparable to Darkrai self OHKO an OP and undefeated Darkrai whether it was healthy or almost healthy with one attack move? Sceptile is not that good or strong. If it was, Sceptile would be put leagues above Pikachu and Charizard. We know from the anime and animators that Heracross's super effective Megahorn and Gible's supereffective Rock Smash did damage. We know how the animation looks for Pokemon who didn't receive damage, receive too much damage, receive too much damage, barely felt an attack and so forth. Darkrai felt and got pushed back by both attacks.

But then again, didn't Darkrai recover immediately from Rock Smash? The animation does show that Darkrai took damage, but let's not downplay the healing from Dreameater, which has earlier been shown as a healing move in the anime (Snorlax vs Hypno).

And then again, why should this put Sceptile leagues ahead of Pikachu and Charizard? We saw what feats A-G and Pikachu showed in XY, and Charizard, assuming it improved from BF in BW, are also quite capable of pulling off a feat of that calibre. And then again, it's not that Sceptile one-shot Darkrai without taking major damage: it did take a lot of damage from Ice Beam/Dreameater before OHKO'ing it so I don't see what's the issue with that.

2) No-one knows how much health a Pokemon gets back when using moves like these unless a spectator says so. Bringing in-game logic or math to explain makes you look like a halfwit and what you have to say the moment you do. In games, we get back more health depending on the total damage we do—game mechanic. Pkmn HP works differently than in the game. It doesn't work like this in the anime. So trying to estimate and then actually claim it was almost healthy is some serious subjective, baseless stretching.

And then again, I could also say that no one knows that how much damage Darkrai took earlier (it still visibly looked fine after those battles). All I could say that you're clearly downplaying Dreameater's healing when it was clearly shown that Dreameater drained all of Heracross's health. How is this baseless or an assumption. It's common sense that the amount of healing from Dreameater would depend upon how much health it drains from the user(and in this case it was clearly major).

3) You really have no idea how many healing based moves have been used in the anime, some of which have been confirmed (by spectators) to fully restore Pkmns health yet still get knocked out in 1-2hits. Brandon's Regice was literally stated to recover its health fully after using rest like nothing happened yet it was OHKO by Pikachu's volt tackle. No matter how much a [Pokemon] recovers from a healing move it doesn't change the fact it still feels damage prior to recovering.

So just because a Pokemon gets KO'd by a move after means that it didn't heal fully, though it's clearly mentioned? Pikachu never used Volt Tackle earlier in the battle, so it's possible that Volt Tackle (coming with sheer momentum and speed) was too much to handle for Regice.

Definitely yes. And this is such poor logic, & none of those points you put hard emphasis on hardly matters. That can be said for any kind of moves in the anime. This is your entire argument: You might as well start arguing "Krokodile is way stronger than Levanny because it did most of the work vs Sawk because it is stronger than it, so let's discredit Levanny feat from contributing to Sawk's defeat." Or "Greninja is way stronger than Hawlucha and Goodra, it did most of the work against vs Alain's Bisharp because it is stronger than those two, so let's discredit and downplay those two mons feat in contributing to Bisharp's (stamina) loss." That's your argument. You rather discredit & downplay Heracross and Gible's supereffective feat(whom even the spectator/commentator outright points out how both of there attacks were powerful enough to cause damage).

Um, no. The visual depiction of clean strikes of Leaf Blades were clear/emphazing that those dealt fatal damage to bring it down. Compared to the hits it took from other two Pokemon, Darkrai winced in severe pain when it took those two hits brutal blows from and fainted immediately fainted afterwards shows that it dealt wayyyy more damage in bringing it down.

And Sawk and Bisharp never used any healing moves whatsoever. And it's entirely possible that Greninja's Rain Dance boosted Water Shuriken contributed hugely in Bisharp's fall(especially when Sawyer clearly points out the Rain Dance boost when Water Shuriken KO's Bisharp).

Don't go off trying to twist the narrative intent to fit your agenda. Sceptile didn't do most of the work. The argument is asinine. It, like everyone else, failed to land their attack(s), each one other than Torkoal was able to contribute in landing a direct hit which some were even SE moves, & it even outright stated those attacks were powerful.

What? It's clearly depicted so. Everyone in the stadium was absolutely stunned when Sceptile took out Darkrai, which means that the narrative intent was that the credit goes mostly to Sceptile (along with the fact that the visual depiction of Sceptile's attack and Darkrai's severely painful reaction also emphazing that it was the fatal blow).

Sure, the damage taken from Heracross/Gible was explicitly mentioned, but let's not downplay the healing from Dreameater.

 

[BladexFade]

Half of this post doesn't even counter my points. All you did was repeated yourself, but just more words. But whatever.

-snip-

Yet, Slaking looked "visually" fine after taking those hits compared to Tobias' Darkrai that felt and got pushed back by those attacks. This goes right back to my previous post, point number 1. That is one of many examples where we have a Pokemon who tanked supereffective attacks yet they looked "visually fine."

Spoiler: Point 1.

1)How does Ash's not even strongest Pokemon or comparable to Darkrai self OHKO an OP and undefeated Darkrai whether it was healthy or almost healthy with one attack move? Sceptile is not that good or strong. If it was, Sceptile would be put leagues above Pikachu and Charizard. We know from the anime and animators that Heracross's super effective Megahorn and Gible's supereffective Rock Smash did damage. We know how the animation looks for Pokemon who didn't receive damage, receive too much damage, barely felt an attack and so forth. Darkrai felt and got pushed back by both attacks.

But then again, didn't Darkrai recover immediately from Rock Smash? The animation does show that Darkrai took damage, but let's not downplay the healing from Dreameater, which has earlier been shown as a healing move in the anime (Snorlax vs Hypno).

And then again, why should this put Sceptile leagues ahead of Pikachu and Charizard? We saw what feats A-G and Pikachu showed in XY, and Charizard, assuming it improved from BF in BW, are also quite capable of pulling off a feat of that calibre. And then again, it's not that Sceptile one-shot Darkrai without taking major damage: it did take a lot of damage from Ice Beam/Dreameater before OHKO'ing it so I don't see what's the issue with that.

You didn't even respond my point correctly.... And no one is downplaying Darkrai's dream eater or is arguing Darkrai didn't heal up—I'm not sure why that was even brought up in the first place.

O' yeah... What was I thinking.... Pikachu, Charizard nor A-G defeated an OP & undefeated Pokemon ever, let's not forget Heracross and Gible's effort was only minimal damage as so they didn't contribute half as much as Sceptile did. Sceptile is obviously in his own league, above the likes of Pikachu and Charizard. Pikachu, not even Pikachu(who is stronger than Sceptile) could have one-shot Darkrai and it had so much trouble with Latios. A full health Spectile could beat Latios one-shot if he wasn't badly hurt by ice beam. What was I thinking? Sceptile is obviously up there in his own league with the OP Pokemons. Ash's strongest Pokemon ever.

And then again, I could also say that no one knows that how much damage Darkrai took earlier (it still visibly looked fine after those battles). All I could say that you're clearly downplaying Dreameater's healing when it was clearly shown that Dreameater drained all of Heracross's health. How is this baseless or an assumption. It's common sense that the amount of healing from Dreameater would depend upon how much health it drains from the user(and in this case it was clearly major).

Please tell me you're not serious. This, once again, goes right back to my Slaking point, where it "visually looked fine" after tanking/enduring Hawlucha's attack. No, Darkrai was not healed up all the way, otherwise it would have been mentioned (by spectators) it received most/almost all of its health.
And I reiterate myself

Once again it proves you objectively, like anyone else who tries to claim Darkrai was full health or almost healthy, don't know how much healing moves are in the anime gives back to the user(or how much is a Pokemon full hp is), unless stated in anime.

So just because a Pokemon gets KO'd by a move after means that it didn't heal fully, though it's clearly mentioned? Pikachu never used Volt Tackle earlier in the battle, so it's possible that Volt Tackle (coming with sheer momentum and speed) was too much to handle for Regice.

The point is to show unless the Pokemon is stated to have been "fully/almost" healthy then that Pokemon(Darkrai) wasn't "fully or almost" healthy. You can't completely ignore every other part shown in the anime that actually has statements regarding to Pokemon healing factor, by spectators, to let us viewers know [insert-Pokemon] has "recovered fully".

Um, no. The visual depiction of clean strikes of Leaf Blades were clear/emphazing that those dealt fatal damage to bring it down. Compared to the hits it took from other two Pokemon, Darkrai winced in severe pain when it took those two hits brutal blows from and fainted immediately fainted afterwards shows that it dealt wayyyy more damage in bringing it down.

And Sawk and Bisharp never used any healing moves whatsoever. And it's entirely possible that Greninja's Rain Dance boosted Water Shuriken contributed hugely in Bisharp's fall(especially when Sawyer clearly points out the Rain Dance boost when Water Shuriken KO's Bisharp).

Do you have selected reading or something? You entirely missed the point with Sawk and Bisharp, if that was your answer. 1)Healing moves in the anime doesn't "fully" or "almost" recover a Pkmns health if they ended up getting one-shot or two-shot. 2)It doesn't matter if they don't have healing moves, your point was Sceptile is stronger than Heracross and Gible... Ergo he "did most of the work" when that couldn't be any far from the truth when Gible, Heracross, and Sceptile were all shown to be in similar position and tight spots trying to overcome Darkrai. That same logic applies to Greninja and Krokodile, too, and are comparable to Sceptile's feat; it needed the help from others to defeat it. You bring up "clear depiction" yet that same argument in actuality can be used for Heracross and Gible's(that have statements backing up their punch, to show their supereffective attacks weren't all for nothing when Sceptile took Darkrai down) attack were clean direct hits which were clearly and emphasized on how strong enough it was to send Darkrai flying back.

What? It's clearly depicted so. Everyone in the stadium was absolutely stunned when Sceptile took out Darkrai, which means that the narrative intent was that the credit goes mostly to Sceptile (along with the fact that the visual depiction of Sceptile's attack and Darkrai's severely painful reaction also emphazing that it was the fatal blow).

Sure, the damage taken from Heracross/Gible was explicitly mentioned, but let's not downplay the healing from Dreameater

It was clearly depicted that everyone was amazed that an OP, undefeated Darkrai finally went down. Nothing said about the amazing Sceptile. Under the "narrative/focus" it was shown and implied to be combined effort trying to take down Darkrai. Sceptile, like Pikachu vs Lysandre's M-G example, was able to land the finishing blow because the [Pokemon] was still weakened. So no Sceptile does not get all of the credit. Again, no one is downplaying Darkrai's DreamEater.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Yet, Slaking looked "visually" fine after taking those hits compared to Tobias' Darkrai that felt and got pushed back by those attacks. This goes right back to my previous post, point number 1. That is one of many examples where we have a Pokemon who tanked supereffective attacks yet they looked "visually fine."

There were bruise marks on Slaking's body, so your point? And let's not forget that Talonflame brought down Slaking in a flurry of moves, not just one move. And then again Slaking tanked so many supereffective moves from Hawlucha, as opposed to Darkrai, who took 2 hits from two Pokemon which were way below Darkrai's level, without doubt.

Point1)How does Ash's not even strongest Pokemon or comparable to Darkrai self OHKO an OP and undefeated Darkrai whether it was healthy or almost healthy with one attack move? Sceptile is not that good or strong. If it was, Sceptile would be put leagues above Pikachu and Charizard. We know from the anime and animators that Heracross's super effective Megahorn and Gible's supereffective Rock Smash did damage. We know how the animation looks for Pokemon who didn't receive damage, receive too much damage, receive too much damage, barely felt an attack and so forth. Darkrai felt and got pushed back by both attacks.

Darkrai did get pushed back those attacks, but seeing the scenes, I'm sure that it felt wayyyy more pain when Sceptile struck it with those two fatal Leaf Blades (you can even hear groaning is severe pain.

And then again, whether Sceptile OHKO'd Darkrai or not, it did so after taking severe damage itself from Darkrai. I don't see what's the issue with OHKO'ing if the opponent deals severe damage prior to that. Like MCX OHKO'd Mega Houndoom, but Mega Houndoom did give a tough fight. So I don't see how that's putting Sceptile leagues ahead of Pikachu and Charizard.

And then again, I can also play the same game, saying that, how are Heracross and Gible, who were never depicted as among Ash's top powerhouses, are capable of severely weakening a League sweeping Legendary? This sounds even more ridiculous.

You didn't even respond my point correctly.... And no one is downplaying Darkrai's dream eater or is arguing Darkrai didn't heal up—I'm not sure why that was even brought up in the first place.

Well, whenever I bring up the healing point, you keep saying that Darkrai was still significantly damaged/weakened and Sceptile contributed just as much like Heracross and Gible did to bring down Darkrai. Yeah, I'd say that's severely downplaying Dreameater's healing.

O' yeah... What was I thinking.... Pikachu, Charizard nor A-G defeated an OP & undefeated Pokemon ever, let's not forget Heracross and Gible's effort was only minimal damage as so they didn't contribute half as much as Sceptile did. Sceptile is obviously in his own league, above the likes of Pikachu and Charizard. Pikachu, not even Pikachu(who is stronger than Sceptile) could have one-shot Darkrai and it had so much trouble with Latios. A full health Spectile could beat Latios 1-2 hits if he wasn't badly hurt by ice beam. What was I thinking? Sceptile is obviously up there in his own league with the OP Pokemons. Ash's strongest Pokemon.

I don't know what you are trying to say here. Darkrai was definitely an infamous sweeper, but let's be real, Darkrai would've swept DP Ash and Paul with their best powerhouses. Apart from Tobias, Ash and Paul were in a different league compared to the other League competitors, Paul was also sweeping everyone 3-0, and Ash's battles were only close because he was using his average Pokemon in the earlier battles rather than his major powerhouses like Infernape/Sceptile. Darkrai swept those trainers, who were significantly below Ash/Paul level. And I covered about the OHKO point earlier, it doesn't matter if the opponent deals severe damage prior to it.

Please tell me you're not serious. This, once again, goes right back to my Slaking point, where it "visually looked fine" after tanking/enduring Hawlucha's attack. No, Darkrai was not healed up all the way, otherwise it would have been mentioned (by spectators) it received most/almost all of its health.
And I reiterate myself

I'm not saying that it was fully healed, but the healing certainly wasn't insignificant. So just because it wasn't mentioned, we can't make an estimation of what's visually shown? The healing of Dreameater should depend upon how much health it drains from the opponent, this is common sense. And we clearly see Dreameater draining all of Heracross's health. So Darkrai's healing was definitely significant, and that's what elevates Sceptile's performance here.

The point is to show unless thePokemon is stated to have been "fully/almost" healthy then that Pokemon(Darkrai) wasn't "fully or almost" healthy. You can't completely ignore every other part shown in the anime that actually has statements regarding Pokemon healing factor, by spectators, to let us viewers know [insert-Pokemon] has "recovered fully" yet goes down to 1 or 2 attacks.

If you're talking about Torterra vs Drapion; Pikachu vs Regice; then know that reason for the opponent going down in 1 hit after recovering fully with healing move was that: in the first case, Pin Missile (super effective) was too much for Torterra to take, considering how effortlessly Drapion dispatched Buizel and Staraptor earlier. It's very much possible for Drapion to OHKO even a full-health Torterra with its spam move Pin Missile. Regarding Pikachu vs Regice, it's surprising, but not entirely unreasonable considering Volt Tackle was never used earlier in the battle and it came with great momentum and speed to strike Regice.

Do you have selected reading or something? You entirely missed the point with Sawk and Bisharp, if that was your answer. It doesn't matter if they don't have healing moves, your point was Sceptile is stronger than Heracross and Gible... Ergo he "did most of the work" when that couldn't be any far from the truth when Gible, Heracross, and Sceptile were all shown to be in similar position and tight spots trying to overcome Darkrai. That same logic applies to Greninja and Krokodile, too, and are comparable to Sceptile's feat; it needed the help from others to defeat it. You bring up "clear depiction" yet that same argument in actuality can be used for Heracross and Gible's(that have statements backing up their punch, to show their supereffective attacks weren't all for nothing when Sceptile took Darkrai down) attack were clean direct hits which were clearly and emphasized on how strong enough it was to send Darkrai flying back.

The visual depiction of Sceptile's clean strikes with Leaf Blades, emphasizes that it was a brutal and fatal blow, and as I mentioned earlier, while Darkrai felt Heracross and Gible's attacks, Darkrai groaning in severe pain from Sceptile's brutal blows are depictions that it contributed far more in Darkrai's fall. And yes, since Sceptile is obviously more powerful, it's attacks would obviously do more damage on Darkrai compared to those two. Bringing up Sawk and Bisharp points aren't fair here, because those two took way more hits from the Pokemon they battled before. Heracross/Gible/Sceptile, all struck Sceptile with a single move, so in this case, as Sceptile is way more powerful, it's move would obviously contribute more.

It was clearly depicted that everyone was amazed that an OP, undefeated Darkrai finally went down. Nothing said about the amazing Sceptile. Under the "narrative/focus" it was shown and implied to be combined effort trying to take down Darkrai. Sceptile, like Pikachu vs Lysandre's M-G example, was able to land the finishing blow because the [Pokemon] was still weakened. So no Sceptile does not get all of the credit. Again, no one is downplaying Darkrai's DreamEater.

Nah, after Darkrai beat 3 Pokemon of Ash, nobody in the stadium was stunned that Ash was doing surprisingly well, being able to do damage to Darkrai. The announcer also probably commented that Ash was running out of options, so they also possibly expected a clean sweep then. After Sceptile took down Darkrai everyone was stunned. Yeah, so I'd like to believe that the narrative intent points to Sceptile's amazing feat. Plus, it was a specific choice by the writers that Sceptile and Pikachu got KO's in the Tobias battle while the others were fall guys. One of Ash's regional powerhouse, and one of Ash's main powerhouse managed to get KO's and salvage pride in that battle. So the narrative intent was also that Sceptile and Pikachu battled exceptionally well there.

 

[Navin]

Does it make sense that Darkrai "healed" back to some 90% and then promptly died? I doubt even a surprise crit from Sceptile on an exposed Darkrai could do that much damage. So, no probably not that high.

 

[Genaller]

Does it make sense that Darkrai "healed" back to some 90% and then promptly died? I doubt even a surprise crit from Sceptile on an exposed Darkrai could do that much damage. So, no probably not that high.

My estimate would be 70-80%. I think I already discussed with you how they could have made the Darkrai KO feel more "believable" by A) having Rock Smash's secondary effect of lowering defense activate and B) having Sceptile's Overgrow ability activate, so then it would have been a pair of Overgrow boosted crit Leaf Blades on a Darkrai with lowered defense that did the job instead of just a pair of crit Leaf Blades. The latter; however, does make Sceptile look stronger in comparison. Sure Megahorn probably did substantial damage given Heracross's high offensive power but at the same time Heracross got OHKed by Dream Eater (meaning Darkrai got back the equivalent of half of Heracross's max health) which can't be ignored. Matter of fact with a tactic like DV+DE it's no surprise that Darkrai swept the other SL trainers including the finalist.

 

[Navin]

My estimate would be 70-80%. I think I already discussed with you how they could have made the Darkrai KO feel more "believable" by A) having Rock Smash's secondary effect of lowering defense activate and B) having Sceptile's Overgrow ability activate, so then it would have been a pair of Overgrow boosted crit Leaf Blades on a Darkrai with lowered defense that did the job instead of just a pair of crit Leaf Blades. The latter; however, does make Sceptile look stronger in comparison. Sure Megahorn probably did substantial damage given Heracross's high offensive power but at the same time Heracross got OHKed by Dream Eater (meaning Darkrai got back the equivalent of half of Heracross's max health) which can't be ignored. Matter of fact with a tactic like DV+DE it's no surprise that Darkrai swept the other SL trainers including the finalist.

The way I see it, I highly doubt any of Ash's Pokemon (and yes, to your chagrin, that includes Ash-Greninja) could win (drawing is possible though) against Darkrai in a pure 1 v 1.

 

[Genaller]

The way I see it, I highly doubt any of Ash's Pokemon (and yes, to your chagrin, that includes Ash-Greninja) could win (drawing is possible though) against Darkrai in a pure 1 v 1.

My opinion: A-G and Peakachu can win, Charizard can probably draw and the rest would loose in 1 vs 1.

Okay let's consider this from your view. If you think Peakachu could possibly tie with Darkrai and by extension Charizard and A-G could atleast give very close fights then why is it unreasonable for Sceptile to be able to damage Darkrai by 75-80% when by your estimate GPC is only marginally better than IS (since IS could beat GPC 4/10)?

 

[ash&charizardfan]

None of this debunks any of my points. Sceptile is not Ash's strongest Pokemon nor near Darkrai's level. Common sense, again, supports that Darkrai lost with a single attack move because it was weakened still(whom you downplay Heracross and Gible doing supereffective damage to it). No, I brung up a comparable example(which I can find more examples of in the anime other than Torterrta) healing moves not equaling game logic, in which you tried to use. It's moot to you because you don't have an argument against it when in actuality it isn't — full health/almost full health(your baseless theory). Once again it proves you objectively, like anyone else who tries to claim Darkrai was full health or almost healthy, don't know how much healing moves are in the anime gives back to the user(or how much is a Pokemon full hp is), unless stated in anime.

Yeah, no. All three were given the same equivalent amount of work to Darkrai as the scenes were depicted.

Gible hardly damaged darkrai, though heracross role was definitrly commendable but still it was still maority of sceptile's work in finshing off darkrai as it tanked both of dream eater and ice beam and e=was able to still battle.

The way I see it, I highly doubt any of Ash's Pokemon (and yes, to your chagrin, that includes Ash-Greninja) could win (drawing is possible though) against Darkrai in a pure 1 v 1.

Peakachu tied with latios, who is nearly the same as darkrai, it could take on him in 1 vs 1 same with AG and charizard. Who knows maybe even present sceptile if it gets mre stronger than SL sceptile or even if he gets mega form will definitely take down darkrai.