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Ash Vs the Elite 4

Navin

MALDREAD
My opinion: A-G and Peakachu can win, Charizard can probably draw and the rest would loose in 1 vs 1.

Okay let's consider this from your view. If you think Peakachu could possibly tie with Darkrai and by extension Charizard and A-G could atleast give very close fights then why is it unreasonable for Sceptile to be able to damage Darkrai by 75-80% when by your estimate GPC is only marginally better than IS (since IS could beat GPC 4/10)?

Well I don't think Darkrai was above 70%. And, as you said, there are other factors, like Toby perhaps not taking it as seriously/being caught off-guard especially after Darkrai dispatched 3 of Ash's Pokemon --> didn't anticipate Sceptile to break free. Or Rock Smash lowering Darkrai's defenses (something you can reasonably assume), Also, Sceptile had the sheer willpower to break free, but how many times does that happen, and can all the other powerhouses do the same? If this was Ash-Greninja, Toby wouldn't go for the Dream Eater (since he's immune), but Ice Beam instead - so if the frog's limbs are more stiff, maybe that element of surprise that Sceptile took advantage of is lost if Greninja momentarily loses his speed to land a crippling hit. In any case, even if Pikachu/Charizard/Ash-Greninja do win/draw against Darkrai, they certainly are getting insta KO'd by Latios (if this was Tobias they're facing).

Peakachu tied with latios, who is nearly the same as darkrai, it could take on him in 1 vs 1 same with AG and charizard. Who knows maybe even present sceptile if it gets mre stronger than SL sceptile or even if he gets mega form will definitely take down darkrai.

Honestly might say in fact that Latios was better than Darkrai.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Well I don't think Darkrai was above 70%. And, as you said, there are other factors, like Toby perhaps not taking it as seriously/being caught off-guard especially after Darkrai dispatched 3 of Ash's Pokemon --> didn't anticipate Sceptile to break free. Or Rock Smash lowering Darkrai's defenses (something you can reasonably assume), Also, Sceptile had the sheer willpower to break free, but how many times does that happen, and can all the other powerhouses do the same? If this was Ash-Greninja, Toby wouldn't go for the Dream Eater (since he's immune), but Ice Beam instead - so if the frog's limbs are more stiff, maybe that element of surprise that Sceptile took advantage of is lost if Greninja momentarily loses his speed to land a crippling hit.
Ice Beam doesn't always freeze the opponent in the anime. And then A-G is faster than Sceptile and can use Double Team to just avoid Dark Void.



Honestly might say in fact that Latios was better than Darkrai.
Based on what? It was the Pokemon Tobias used for sweeping the league. It's rather: Heracross > Swellow.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Well I don't think Darkrai was above 70%. And, as you said, there are other factors, like Toby perhaps not taking it as seriously/being caught off-guard especially after Darkrai dispatched 3 of Ash's Pokemon --> didn't anticipate Sceptile to break free. Or Rock Smash lowering Darkrai's defenses (something you can reasonably assume), Also, Sceptile had the sheer willpower to break free, but how many times does that happen, and can all the other powerhouses do the same? If this was Ash-Greninja, Toby wouldn't go for the Dream Eater (since he's immune), but Ice Beam instead - so if the frog's limbs are more stiff, maybe that element of surprise that Sceptile took advantage of is lost if Greninja momentarily loses his speed to land a crippling hit. In any case, even if Pikachu/Charizard/Ash-Greninja do win/draw against Darkrai, they certainly are getting insta KO'd by Latios (if this was Tobias they're facing).

Yeah 70% is a reasonable low ball. 75-80% is closer to what the actual health probably was. Darkrai was caught off guard which made it easier for Sceptile to land crits but let’s not take credit away from Sceptile’s amazing precision (and Leaf Blade’s secondary effect of increasing critical hit ratio). Yeah Rock Smash didn’t lower defense since otherwise they’d show it (like with Metal Sound lowering sp.defense vs Paul SL). Like I said they could have done that or had Sceptile activate Overgrow in order to make the win feel more realistic but they didn’t do Sceptile looks stronger as a result. If this is an idealized Ash then quite often actually (vs Brandon 3 Ash showed that he could repeatedly break his Pokémon’s confusion). Ice Beam has a 10% chance of freezing and also A-G has been able to break out of freezing in the past (vs Wulfric 2). This is even assuming that Darkrai could hit A-G with DV. Again based on your views if you think GPC could win/draw with Darkrai then Sceptile being able to do 75-80% damage should be completely within reason. Imagine that same battle sequence with Sceptile but with Darkrai starting at full health. After getting struck by the LBs Darkrai would countere with DP/IB and that would’ve been it for Sceptile.

My view: A-G could flat out decisively beat both of Tobiy’s legendaries in a 1 vs 2 much to your chargin (also it’s more SL Heracross > Swellow rather than Latios > Darkrai (which it might be in terms of stats but not overall because of Darkrai’s DV+DE tactic)). Anyways let’s discuss this through your view though Sceptile doing the amount of damage that I say he did should still be entirely consistent with even that (you can disagree with me all you want but atleast try to maintain internal consistency with your own views).
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
I feel they burned this bridge in Sinnoh when they ignored all the foreshadowing and had Tobias Ex Machina show up
 
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