• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Ash's GOAT Performance As A Trainer!

Genaller

Silver Soul
Greatest Performance Of Ash’s Life; SL Paul or KL Alain!!!???

Positive Feats:

— SL Paul

- Sswitched Pikachu out in order to reset his special defense which was lowered by Aggron's Metal Sound (basically a nod to how stat changes in-game are reset when the Pokemon switches out)

- Had Staraptor use Close Combat on the ground in order to shake Gastrodon off

- Buizel’s counter shield

- Buizel’s Ice Aqua Jet

- Had Buizel puff his flotation sack in order to escape Drapion’s clutches

- Underground Flare Blitz which served the dual purpose of both eviscerating Toxic Spikes and landing severe damage on Ninjask hence crippling its previously insane speed

- Having Infernape calmly focus in order to locate and land the finishing blow on Ninjask

- Having Pikachu use Iron Tail in conjunction with the rebound force from Ice Shard as a spring board in order to quickly get close to and then strike Froslass with a clean Iron Tail before she could faze out again. For Froslass Snow Cloak allows her to faze through all opponent attacks; however, she needs to materialize when launching her own attacks and there exists a certain time interval (that is likely quite small) after she launches an attack before she can again go back into faze mode a.k.a the best moment to counter attack is immediately after Froslass launches an attack

- Gliscor rolling into the sky right after using Giga Impact in order to avoid the consequences of its temporary immobility drawback

- Pikachu using the speed and momentum of Quick Attack in order to respectively dodge and climb the debris resulting from battlefield Thunder (fun facts: Paul copied that move from Ash who used it in his first match against Roark and also Pikachu’s “rock climbing” could be thought of as a prototype for Ash’s Rock Tomb climb tactic in XY) giving him a temporary “high ground” that allowed him to make a clean strike with Quick Attack

- Deliberately had Infernape get caught and damaged by Electivire in order to activate special Blaze more quickly (notable since Infernape was already nearing the limits of its stamina and had Ash waited for longer for special Blaze to activate from the accumulated damage from fighting Electivire + Poison, Infernape may have been too exhausted to do anything after entering that state).

— KL Alain

- Had Pikachu use Iron Tail on the river in order to flood the battlefield serving the dual purpose of eliminating Sandstorm and dousing Tyranitar making it vulnerable to electric attacks

- Used the angular momentum (a.k.a spin) from Tyranitar flinging Pikachu (after their Iron Tail vs Crunch clash) to augment the power of his Electro Ball

- Had Noivern use Echolocation in order to find the real Weavile in the Double Team

- Had Hawlucha use the Ice floor created by Weavile in order to skid in the same (vector) direction as Weavile’s attacks thereby reducing their damage (tell me if this or any other point need further explanation). For this point I’d also add that Hawlucha gets “pumped” from being “perceived” as being able to tank his foe’s attacks which of course allows him to battle to his full potential, so it is also notable that Ash was able to adapt to Hawlucha’s battle style by reducing the damage he takes from the foe’s attacks, but still maintaining the perception of Hawlucha’s perseverance

- Had Talonflame use Flame Charge in order to boost speed (after its speed got lowered from the damage it took via Air Slash which is similar to Ninjask’s speed crippling case but to a lesser extent) resulting in Talonflame having greater momentum and hence impact in the final Brave Bird vs Sky Attack clash

- Had Pikachu jump on Metagross’s head where it can’t reach him and launching a stream of direct hit Thunderbolts

- Had Pikachu use Iron Tail in order to propel sand upwards blocking Flamethrower in the process

- Immediately had Goodra use Rain Dance in order to avoid getting Paralyzed by Thunder Wave; this was actually smarter than if Ash had used Rain Dance only after Thunder Wave was used since A) there was a chance that the paralysis would kick in preventing/delaying Rain Dance and B) Bisharp would likely have had more opportunities to strike with Guillotine while Goodra was Paralyzed whereas notice that Alain only used Guillotine in the actual battle when it was clear that Goodra was already too exhausted and hence wouldn’t be able to evade; also I’m sure most of you have heard the saying “prevention is better than cure”

- Used Rain Dance to augment the power of Greninja’s Water Shuriken

- Used Double Team to distract Bisharp, so that Greninja could get a can strike with Water Shuriken and also used it to distract Mega Charizard X thereby allowing Ash-Greninja to close the gap between them.

- Used Ash-Greninja’s Water Shuriken as a shield against Mega Charizard X’s Thunderpunch (certainly not a conventional way of using Water Shuriken)

Mistakes:

— SL Paul

- Bad timing on Synthesis. Synthesis is a move that while being used leaves the user completely vulnerable to foe attacks and in addition there exists a time interval between when the user finishes/stops using Synthesis and having their guard back up. This is inferred from Regi's statemnet during Ash and Paul's Lake Acuity battle right after Grotle got KOed implying that Grotle’s vulnerability from using Shynthesis was a factor in why it got KOed by Honchkrow’s attack eventhough it stopped using Synthesis and was setting up for a counter attack with Rock Climb (and there should be a time interval albeit a small one between those 2 actions). Paul specifically waited until right after Synthesis was done to strike in order to psychologically mess with Ash by pretty much conveying “even in the best case scenario you would still loose” while landing a critical hit since as established Torterra would still be vulnerable the moment immediately after finishing Synthesis. The better approach for Ash would have been to focus on dealing as much damage as possible with Torterra before it inevitably fell instead of fruitlessly attempting to heal without accounting for the opponent's battle position.

- Had Pikachu use Volt Tackle on Electivire activating its Motordrive ability. Ash deliberately gave Electivire the speed amp in order to lure him in and recreate an analogous situation to Ash and Paul’s first battle; however, Ash grossly underestimated the strength increase Electivire got since then (it was still an Elekid in that battle) and even more importantly Ash showed a lack of long term foresight by not factoring in that Electivire would still have the speed amp going into the final battle with Infernape stacking the deck even further against the already damaged, fatigued and Poisoned monkey. Obviously the “meta” reason for why this was done was to make Infernape look like an ultimate survivor badass for overcoming the odds and it worked; however, that doesn’t excuse Ash needlessly making the battle more difficult than it needed to be.

— KL Alain

- Ash not switching out Noivern against Weavile; this might be the 1 instance in the Alain battle where XY Ash not being as prone to switching as DP Ash may have cost him. Now it should be noted that Ash chose to make the substitution for Noivern before Alain sent Weavile out and league battles likely have policies that prevent switching from being abused. As far as known league battles go the minimum amount of time that a given Pokémon has battled before being recalled with the opponent neither making any substations themselves nor having any of their Pokémon KOed would be roughly 25 seconds as witnessed in Ash vs Katie (Torkoal vs Venamoth where Venamoth was recalled) and Ash vs Conway (Donphan vs Shuckle where Donphan was recalled). The 25 second mark in Noivern vs Weavile was right before the Ice Beam - Boomburst clash meaning that yes Ash definitely could have switched out Noivern after that move clash yet chose to follow up with Dragon Claw instead. It could be argued that Ash didn’t feel the need to switch since up till that point the battled seemed even with both Pokémon landing 1 hit on the other; however, it could also be counter argued that Ash got sucked into the flow of the battle which prevented him from making the wiser call to switch.

- Not having Greninja use Water Shuriken on Charizard while Rain Dance was still active. Now Ash actually made the right call by having Greninja initially charge in instead of using Water Shuriken straight away since that’s what he did in XYZ 23 and Charizard had no trouble dodging several of them and then landing a clean strike with Dragon Claw. Alain also had Charizard rush in and was a split second faster in calling out Flamethrower to which Ash reflexively had Greninja dodge. The implication here is that Cut was easier to utilize than Water Shuriken whilst Greninja was in a mid air spin hence why Ash chose to call Cut; however, if you believe that Water Shuriken could have just as easily been used from that particular position (I don't), then it would be fair to count this as a mistake.


Well that would wrap it up as far as objective assessment of both performances is concerned. I’m interested in reading the community’s thoughts on which performance was better (and for the record better result =/= better performance and more narratively satisfying =/= better performance). As for my view while the positive feats in both performances match up quite well, the magnitude of the mistakes in the SL Paul battle far outweigh those in the KL Alain battle hence why I would consider the KL Alain performance to be superior overall and the best performance Ash has had till date in terms of pure trainer skill. Did I miss anything of note from either battle? Do you think any other battle should be in contention for best Ash performance (I ask because I intend to eventually put up a poll on which battle did Ash perform best in as a trainer)?

BONUS QUESTION: What would be your TOP 10 Ash performances in terms of pure trainer skill in the anime till date (as of now I myself don't have a conclusive answer for this 1)?
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Paul, he beat Paul while he lost to Alain.
Better result doesn't necessarily equate to a better performance. Else loosing to Arceus after a tough fight would be a worse performance than beating a Caterpie :p. Any other thoughts?
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
GOAT? What's that supposed to mean?

Anyways, in all honesty, my answer for which I think is the greatest performance is neither. I think that Ash peaked in his battle with Tobias. I don't have nearly as thought out a spread of points, but the fact that he not only defeated Darkrai, which had previously swept every single Pokémon it battled prior, but also tied with Latios, which is presumably at a comparable power level to Darkrai, if not stronger, says it all. Ash was pushed to his absolute limits and essentially did what no one before him could, and that's what made it his greatest performance.

I don't think I could give a top ten, but my top five would be:
1) Tobias
2) Paul (Sinnoh League)
3) Alain (Kalos League)
4) Brandon (final rematch)
5) Tyson

With the battle against Alain only barely edging out the battle with Brandon. I've also got to admit I'm not so sure about putting Tyson in fifth over something else, but I couldn't think of anything that impressed me more off the top of my head. If I come up with something better later, I'll bring it up.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
GOAT? What's that supposed to mean?
GOAT = Greatest Of All Time.

Anyways, in all honesty, my answer for which I think is the greatest performance is neither. I think that Ash peaked in his battle with Tobias. I don't have nearly as thought out a spread of points, but the fact that he not only defeated Darkrai, which had previously swept every single Pokémon it battled prior, but also tied with Latios, which is presumably at a comparable power level to Darkrai, if not stronger, says it all. Ash was pushed to his absolute limits and essentially did what no one before him could, and that's what made it his greatest performance.

The Tobias performance narratively made him look amazing in that he could do what no other trainer in the SL did though in terms of pure skill it’s far from his best performance. The positive feats in that battle were:

1. Using Heracross’s Sleep Talk as a counter measure for Dark Void.

2. Breaking Sceptile out of Dark Void with bond power.

3. Having Pikachu jump on Latios’s back where he can’t reach and then landing a series of 5 direct Thunderbolts (3 of which only dealt partial damage due to Light Screen).

4. Gravity boosted Volt Tackle + Iron Tail combo.

While the mistakes were:

1. Not using Swellow’s Double Team in conjunction with Aerial Ace which would have made it more difficult for Latios to strike with Luster Purge (and we do know that Swellow can use these 2 moves in conjunction from vs Katie’s Scizor).

2. Being a bit slow to get the message that head-on battling won’t work with Latios since he still tries an head-to-head Iron Tail vs Giga Impact clash even after seeing a Volt Tackle vs Giga Impact clash end with Pikachu on the loosing end.

Overall the Tobias battle doesn’t meritocratically compare to either the Paul or Alain battle in terms of Ash’s displayed skill as a trainer. Also if narrative portrayal is the primary criterion, then Ash’s performance against Champion Diantha would win by a landslide since prior to that Champions were portrayed as utterly invincible till then with Ash’s rivals like Paul and Trip getting fodderized by them not to mention that Ash got owned by every E4 member he faced till then (Lorelei, Hoenn Drake, Agatha, Flint, Bertha) though some were more brutal than others. It’s also worth noting that 2 of those times (Flint and Bertha) were after Ash showed he could take down legendaries (Articuno and Regice).

I don't think I could give a top ten, but my top five would be:
1) Tobias
2) Paul (Sinnoh League)
3) Alain (Kalos League)
4) Brandon (final rematch)
5) Tyson

I’ll admit that I think that Ash conquering the Battle Frontier is his greatest achievement till date though overall I wouldn’t call his performance against Brandon particularly skillful. While he did make some skillful plays such as Leech Seed, using water to clean Squirtle’s eyes, using the force from Hydro Pump to bounce of the wall and breaking the ice wedge caused by Regice’s Ice Beam with Iron Tail, he also made a huge blunder by calling Seismic Toss on Ghost type Dusclops resulting in it being able to land a (critical) hit on an off-guard Charizard causing his KO. Ash did display an especially high amount of willpower in this battle, but that isn’t enough to compensate for his folly.


With the battle against Alain only barely edging out the battle with Brandon. I've also got to admit I'm not so sure about putting Tyson in fifth over something else, but I couldn't think of anything that impressed me more off the top of my head. If I come up with something better later, I'll bring it up.
The only notable strategy Ash employed on Tyson was focusing his Pokémon’s attacks on the crack in Metagross’s head causes by Swellow. I’d put many of Ash’s gym battles in Sinnoh and Kalos over it in terms of Ash’s skill output. I haven’t yet figured out what my TOP 5 or 10 will be though I’m fairly sure that they’ll be Sinnoh and Kalos centric since Ash in general was just a much better trainer in those 2 regions than any other (till date).
 
Last edited:

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Can we add non-battle accomplishments?

Seriously some of the ways Ash immerses himself into a Pokemon's well being are impressive, like actually posing himself as a Passimian to help get their tribe in order. And of course his sheer protectiveness at times, seriously he completely destroyed Mewtwo's machinery just to get back Pikachu.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Have to say Gary here, because of the emotional value between the two.
 
Top