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Ash's Lucario and Gou's Cinderace

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Hasn't this already happened? Like with the whole aura thing and it choosing ash just like Froakie did in XY. And then it's power exponentially rising against the Onix when it battled listening to Ash.
Plus, even just as a Riolu, it already seems strong enough to hold its own against Pikachu(Granted Pikachu is pretty inconsistent).

Wouldn't be surprised if they pull of some bs like Lucario is capable of mega evolving without the stones just because of its strong bond with Ash.
Not really.Aura is different than A-G power up plus pretty sure Riolu did not use aura like abilities in the battles.He trained on screen and off screen. Riolu definitely isn't stronger than Dragonite as of now.Lucario would be.
So yeah Riolu is kinda justified as of now. Ash just spends more time with Riolu than other Pokemon.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
The latter is already happening, but I certainly hope that he doesn't receive some special power that will make him more important than he's already destined to be as a Lucario. I wouldn't mind if Aceburn turns out to be special and outshines Gou's other Pokemon however, mainly because Gou's team's development matters less to me than the development of Satoshi's team.
Riolu taking spotlight is justified lol. It is a baby that needs caring and get stronger.Lucario would be *adult* that doesnt need that much attention so he would be on same line as others.Yeah if he gets something then I hope it justified like Mega evolution rather than Ash-Lucario or Aura Lucario where he suddenly can over power Leon's Charizard.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Stranger things have occurred in the past I suppose, but I just question why they would need to go through a situation like this when they could just as easily have Satoshi use his old Z-Ring to Mega Evolve Lucario, instead.
But that would make it a regular Mega Lucario and the last Mega Lucario we've seen on screen was defeated by one of Ash's new captures. I mean sure, Ash's Mega Lucario would be a lot more powerful, but it hasn't been on long enough Like Ash's Pikachu to get that special, powerful Lucario status. So considering how much they're pushing it as his ace, I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce some gimmick.

Not really.Aura is different than A-G power up plus pretty sure Riolu did not use aura like abilities in the battles.He trained on screen and off screen. Riolu definitely isn't stronger than Dragonite as of now.Lucario would be.
So yeah Riolu is kinda justified as of now. Ash just spends more time with Riolu than other Pokemon.
I mean sure it might not exactly be the same but there was some kind of bond/aura whatever gimmick between Ash and Riolu which resulted in it gaining a boost in strength.
And actually, as crazy as it sounds, there is no definitive proof to claim Dragonite is stronger than Riolu. If anything, as absurd as it sounds, it's a lot more easier to argue Riolu is possibly even stronger than Dragonite.

1. We see Bea defeat Mega Lucario. While we do not know what Pokemon she used against it, she wasn't as impressed with Korrina. However, she was much impressed and surprised with Riolu's growth in power and took a shine to it after she battled it. So you could argue that Bea found Riolu to be a much stronger and worthier opponent than Korrina's mega lucario.

2. Dragonite had a fairly even battle with Mega Lucario. The match could've gone either way, so it isn't necessarily much stronger. And as you stated, Ash trains and spends more time with Riolu than the rest of his pokemon. So even if he trained Dragonite since its battle with Korrina, Riolu has definitely gotten a lot more training.
 
Tbh I dont even care if Satoshi gets a starter this gen or not. No matter if Grookey will go to Satoshi now, it will be a starter with:

A) The least screentime of any starter in basic form
B) A rushed evolution

His team seems to focus on raw power this time and natural abillities (Aura) . 75% of his journeys team (bar Pikachu and G. Farfechted) will be evolved by the end of SW/SH arc in the anime. That is even sooner than this Kalos team.

I feel that he will catch a new one or begin to use reserves past ep 50. It would be a shame to not use it in a setting like the Pokemon World Championships or the world tour setting.

The regions with story heavy arcs or episodes, seem to have gotten the short side of the stick. Kalos, Unova and Alola all got one episode, where in Kalos and Alola's episodes continunity is involved in some way.
 

PsychoLogical

Well-Known Member
It's gonna get special treatment but whether or not it's Ash-Greninja level of special treatment remains to be seen
It technically has been hinted since Ash’s Lucario’s Aura Sphere has noticeably been shown to be unusually larger than a normal Aura Sphere. Look at the comparison here between Korrina’s ML using AS and Ash’s regular soon to be Lucario:

Aura Sphere on Ash’s Lucario side is noticeably way bigger than Korrina’s and every other mon that has used Aura Sphere. From every Lucario that used AS and even the non-Lucario Aura Sphere users.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
It technically has been hinted since Ash’s Lucario’s Aura Sphere has noticeably been shown to be unusually larger than a normal Aura Sphere. Look at the comparison here between Korrina’s ML using AS and Ash’s regular soon to be Lucario:

Aura Sphere on Ash’s Lucario side is noticeably way bigger than Korrina’s and every other mon that has used Aura Sphere. From every Lucario that used AS and even the non-Lucario Aura Sphere users.
Interesting. Maybe the whole aura gimmick between Ash and Lucario helps power up the Aura Sphere further. Kinda like how the Shuriken on Ash Greninja's back got bigger the more Ash and Greninja were in sync.
 

PsychoLogical

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Maybe the whole aura gimmick between Ash and Lucario helps power up the Aura Sphere further. Kinda like how the Shuriken on Ash Greninja's back got bigger the more Ash and Greninja were in sync.
Reminds me more of Smash where Lucario's Aura Sphere can get bigger but with Lucario in Smash needing to take alot of damage in order for AS to get bigger.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
But that would make it a regular Mega Lucario and the last Mega Lucario we've seen on screen was defeated by one of Ash's new captures. I mean sure, Ash's Mega Lucario would be a lot more powerful, but it hasn't been on long enough Like Ash's Pikachu to get that special, powerful Lucario status. So considering how much they're pushing it as his ace, I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce some gimmick.


I mean sure it might not exactly be the same but there was some kind of bond/aura whatever gimmick between Ash and Riolu which resulted in it gaining a boost in strength.
And actually, as crazy as it sounds, there is no definitive proof to claim Dragonite is stronger than Riolu. If anything, as absurd as it sounds, it's a lot more easier to argue Riolu is possibly even stronger than Dragonite.

1. We see Bea defeat Mega Lucario. While we do not know what Pokemon she used against it, she wasn't as impressed with Korrina. However, she was much impressed and surprised with Riolu's growth in power and took a shine to it after she battled it. So you could argue that Bea found Riolu to be a much stronger and worthier opponent than Korrina's mega lucario.

2. Dragonite had a fairly even battle with Mega Lucario. The match could've gone either way, so it isn't necessarily much stronger. And as you stated, Ash trains and spends more time with Riolu than the rest of his pokemon. So even if he trained Dragonite since its battle with Korrina, Riolu has definitely gotten a lot more training.
I don't remember Riolu using any aura in battle. Was it invisible? If so then we can't say for sure. Lucario could possibly have some BS but I hope it's Mega Lucario rather than A-G BS again.
No, Dragonite is stronger than Riolu as of now.
1.Bea defeating ML doesn't mean anything since we didn't see how she defeated her. Now, sure she used Grapploct in a battle since it seems it's an ace, but what is Bea used other Pokemon( flashback looked like it was on same stadium where Ash and Korrina battled ; so it was 2 on 2). Maybe it was 3 on 3, so it's easy to say that Bea's 1 Pokemon defeated 1 Korrina's Pokemon and that how it goes, so in the end ML had to battle Grapploct + 1 Pokemon. Now, if it's 1 on 1, sure maybe ML wouldn't win but it wouldn't be that easy of a match. I don't see how she find that since ML would definitely beat Riolu. It makes no sense that Riolu > Mega Lucario.

2. Dragonite had to battle Meinshao and ML and it beat them( thus Gengar helped a bit). Not to mention that: Grapploct spared with Chuck's Poliwrath( so it wasn't 100% when it started a match with Pikachu) and battled Pikachu who despite inconsistent, Pikachu should always be strongest in Ash's team, so Pikachu > Dragonite( but Pikachu battled Hitmontop for a bit) and Grapploct took several hits from that, resulting in Grapploct was wounded and not fresh when he battled fresh Riolu. Ash spends and trained Riolu more than Dragonite but Riolu still didn't catch up to Dragonite it will when it evolves soon.
 
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AJ97

Well-Known Member
I don't remember Riolu using any aura in battle. Was it invisible? If so then we can't say for sure. Lucario could possibly have some BS but I hope it's Mega Lucario rather than A-G BS again.
No, Dragonite is stronger than Riolu as of now.
1.Bea defeating ML doesn't mean anything since we didn't see how she defeated her. Now, sure she used Grapploct in a battle since it seems it's an ace, but what is Bea used other Pokemon( flashback looked like it was on same stadium where Ash and Korrina battled ; so it was 2 on 2). Maybe it was 3 on 3, so it's easy to say that Bea's 1 Pokemon defeated 1 Korrina's Pokemon and that how it goes, so in the end ML had to battle Grapploct + 1 Pokemon. Now, if it's 1 on 1, sure maybe ML wouldn't win but it wouldn't be that easy of a match. I don't see how she find that since ML would definitely beat Riolu. It makes no sense that Riolu > Mega Lucario.

2. Dragonite had to battle Meinshao and ML and it beat them( thus Gengar helped a bit). Not to mention that: Grapploct spared with Chuck's Poliwrath( so it was 100% when it started a match with Pikachu) and battled Pikachu who despite inconsistent, Pikachu should always be strongest in Ash's team, so Pikachu > Dragonite( but Pikachu battled Hitmontop for a bit) and Grapploct took several hits from that, resulting in Grapploct was wounded and not fresh when he battled fresh Riolu. Ash spends and trained Riolu more than Dragonite but Riolu still didn't catch up to Dragonite it will when it evolves soon.

1. Your logic about number of Pokemon being used against Mega Lucario is simply irrelevant and makes no sense.. The point is, Bea didn't consider Korrina as a serious opponent. By your logic, Bea had to use more than 1 pokemon or a stronger pokemon to defeat Korrina's Mega Lucario. If that were the case, she wouldn't have considered her to be a weak opponent. The whole point here is Bea considered Riolu + Ash a more serious opponent than Korrina.

2. Lucario also battled with Gengar and defeated it so I don't see the point of claiming Dragonite had to also fight Mienshao. You yourself say Pikachu is inconsistent, and then state it is the strongest on Ash's team. This isn't true. Pikachu wasn't the strongest Pokemon on Ash's team definitely in Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, Kalos and arguably in some of the other regions. A Pikachu that tied with a Latios in the Sinnoh League lost against Viola, the first gym leader in Kalos. Pikachu's strengthly is simply always inconsistent and should never be considered while comparing a Pokemon's strength.
On some days PIkachu might be > Dragonite, but on some days PIkachu might be < Ash's Farfetchd.

Claiming Grappaloct was supposedly weak cuz it sparred with Poliwrath before is just an awful argument.

1. We could easily argue Ash is not the kind of trainer who would exploit such an advantage, plus, Bea wouldn't use a weakened pokemon in a pwc battle. Plus, right before they battle, they take off their shoes etc, for all you know, we could just as easily argue that Bea might have healed her Pokemon offscreen before her battle with Ash.

2. By your reasoning, we see Riolu spar with Pikachu right before Ash battles Bea. So based off your own words about "Pikachu being the strongest on Ash's team", shouldn't Riolu be all the more tired before its battle with Bea's Grappaloct? Lol. I mean, we don't see Ash healing Riolu. He might have done it offscreen. The same could be said about Bea.


Why do you say that it makes no sense that Riolu > Mega Lucario?
For it being a superior species argument
1. We've seen Ash's Hawlucha (One of his weaker Kalos mons) defeat Astrid's Mega Absol, which was her ace at the time.
2. Ash is a much superior trainer than Korrina.
3. We've seen many of Ash's first stage evolutions beat fully evolved pokemon.

For the, it was owned longer/more experienced argument:
1. Ash has owned Pikachu a lot longer than Lance has owned Gyarados. But why is Lance gyarados much superior to Ash's Pikachu?

You're simply looking at the statement. "How can a newly acquired Baby Riolu be stronger than a Mega Lucario Owned for a long time". If you look at just the statement, then yes, I personally would also agree with you that Riolu cannot be stronger than Mega Lucario. But if you look at the actual facts and events that have happened so far, one can easily argue Ash's Riolu is > Korrina's Mega Lucario.

There only reasonable argument here would to be say that Korrina was much weaker against Bea and after her loss, trained very hard to battle Ash. Hence, the Mega Lucario she used against Bea was a lot weaker than the one she used against Ash. "There is no definitive prove of this. It would be an assumption". However, with this assumption, you can argue why Mega Lucario is superior to Ash's Riolu. Other than that, if you look at the actual facts, Ash's Riolu is stronger.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
CMButch said:
Riolu taking spotlight is justified lol. It is a baby that needs caring and get stronger.Lucario would be *adult* that doesnt need that much attention so he would be on same line as others.
That's a very optimistic outlook, but from my perspective it's unlikely that the writers will treat Lucario like Satoshi's other Pokemon [i.e. the ones that aren't Pikachu]. The fact that Lucario is right next to Satoshi on the updated Pocket Monsters 2019 poster almost as a second mascot with Pikachu already implies that he's going to get a lot of attention.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
1. Your logic about number of Pokemon being used against Mega Lucario is simply irrelevant and makes no sense.. The point is, Bea didn't consider Korrina as a serious opponent. By your logic, Bea had to use more than 1 pokemon or a stronger pokemon to defeat Korrina's Mega Lucario. If that were the case, she wouldn't have considered her to be a weak opponent. The whole point here is Bea considered Riolu + Ash a more serious opponent than Korrina.
Yes it does make sense but obviously Lucario would have to defeat 2 Pokemon instead of 1 and logically defeating two Pokemon is harder than defeating 1. Why wouldn't her consider weak opponent if that's the case? One of Bea's Pokemon would definitely go down after battling Korrina's Mienshao/Machoke and Mega Lucario by latter and her Grapploct would beat ML. Considering Ash more serious opponent is irrelevant to Riolu > ML since we look at feats and feats don't support that Riolu > ML.Also Ash is more serious opponent probably because he used tactics and strategy while Korinna didn't which also makes sense.

2. Lucario also battled with Gengar and defeated it so I don't see the point of claiming Dragonite had to also fight Mienshao. You yourself say Pikachu is inconsistent, and then state it is the strongest on Ash's team. This isn't true. Pikachu wasn't the strongest Pokemon on Ash's team definitely in Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, Kalos and arguably in some of the other regions. A Pikachu that tied with a Latios in the Sinnoh League lost against Viola, the first gym leader in Kalos. Pikachu's strengthly is simply always inconsistent and should never be considered while comparing a Pokemon's strength.
The point is that Dragonite had to fight both Mineshao and Mega Lucario and defeated them. Lol.
Pikachu is inconsistent when it comes to EOS Pikachu to early or mid Pikachu aka Pikachu in the end of SM is not as strong as Pikachu that battled Visquez. But in this series Pikachu is definitely above Dragonite.

On some days PIkachu might be > Dragonite, but on some days PIkachu might be < Ash's Farfetchd.
And usually Pikachu is always above Dragonite especially when it comes to PWC matches. So yeah, they matter.

Claiming Grappaloct was supposedly weak cuz it sparred with Poliwrath before is just an awful argument.
Actually if you tried and read it carefully I never said he's weak but not fresh during a match between Ash and Bea. Not fresh =/= weak.

1. We could easily argue Ash is not the kind of trainer who would exploit such an advantage, plus, Bea wouldn't use a weakened pokemon in a pwc battle. Plus, right before they battle, they take off their shoes etc, for all you know, we could just as easily argue that Bea might have healed her Pokemon offscreen before her battle with Ash.
And we don't know thus we take that it happened right after sparring so Grapploct wasn't 100% aka it wasn't fresh.

2. By your reasoning, we see Riolu spar with Pikachu right before Ash battles Bea. So based off your own words about "Pikachu being the strongest on Ash's team", shouldn't Riolu be all the more tired before its battle with Bea's Grappaloct? Lol. I mean, we don't see Ash healing Riolu. He might have done it offscreen. The same could be said about Bea.
You do understand that they sparred at lab and they had to travel to Johto? What stupid argument while Bea sparred in a gym same gym that she battled Ash in.


Why do you say that it makes no sense that Riolu > Mega Lucario?
For it being a superior species argument
1. We've seen Ash's Hawlucha (One of his weaker Kalos mons) defeat Astrid's Mega Absol, which was her ace at the time.
2. Ash is a much superior trainer than Korrina.
3. We've seen many of Ash's first stage evolutions beat fully evolved pokemon.
Because it's Mega Pokemon and Riolu is baby?Riolu definitely is not stronger than Mega Lucario.
1.Bad argument because Mega Absol could've literally fought Talonflame, Pikachu beforehand and Hawlucha could take it.
2.Ash being superior to Korrina doesn't mean his all his Pokemon are superior to Korinna's all Pokemon again very bad argument because you literally said that Scraggy would destroy Mega Lucario LOL becuase Ash is superior trainer.
3.Yes but this is not last stage Pokemon this is Mega powered Pokemon lol. As I said Riolu would beat Korinna's Lucario but not Mega. His Lucario would beat Korinna's Mega Lucario.

For the, it was owned longer/more experienced argument:
1. Ash has owned Pikachu a lot longer than Lance has owned Gyarados. But why is Lance gyarados much superior to Ash's Pikachu?
This is simply wrong because Lance's Gyarados is not "much superior" to Pikachu. Pikachu can use 10 MV and beat Gyarados. Pikachu hold his own against Leon's Charizard who should be stronger than Gyarados.I agree that Base Gyarados would beat Base Pikachu but it's not much superior. And once they use their gimmick; Giga Pikachu would be closer to Dyna Gyarados not to mention that in the end of Journeys ,Pikachu will very likely surpass Gyarados.

You're simply looking at the statement. "How can a newly acquired Baby Riolu be stronger than a Mega Lucario Owned for a long time". If you look at just the statement, then yes, I personally would also agree with you that Riolu cannot be stronger than Mega Lucario. But if you look at the actual facts and events that have happened so far, one can easily argue Ash's Riolu is > Korrina's Mega Lucario.
And those facts and events don't/didn't prove that Riolu > Mega Lucario.

There only reasonable argument here would to be say that Korrina was much weaker against Bea and after her loss, trained very hard to battle Ash. Hence, the Mega Lucario she used against Bea was a lot weaker than the one she used against Ash. "There is no definitive prove of this. It would be an assumption". However, with this assumption, you can argue why Mega Lucario is superior to Ash's Riolu. Other than that, if you look at the actual facts, Ash's Riolu is stronger.
There's no actual facts that support Ash's Riolu > Mega Lucario lol. Facts support that ML > Riolu > Lucario but Ash's Lucario will surpass ML.
I already said why ML > Riolu in comment above. Grapploct if he was fresh and didn't battle Pikachu(who is stronger than Dragonite) would have beaten Riolu. Korrina who is called weak by Bea if it was 2 on 2( since both Bea's battles were 2 on 2) ML definitely defeated one of Bea's Pokemon( because it makes no sense that Grapploct defeated two Korrina's Pokemon; just because she was called weak you can't justify that Grapploct beat two of her Pokemon per say) and lost to Grapploct after good fight.She probably said that to Ash to make him angry since Ash already lost to Hawlucha and had trouble with Grapploct. Or simply Bea saw anyone that she beat weak and in the rematch when she saw that Ash used strategy she called him serious.
 
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TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
I just think it's great that Ash is getting a Lucario in general. I think there's a kind of intrinsic "credibility" to his team. Like even ignoring Dragonite - Gengar, Lucario and a probable Sirfetch'd have such cache with Pokemon fans. They're known and regarded as being strong Pokemon.

I know some think Lucario is overexposed, I get that, but the statement of putting Luke on Ash's team is a big deal for me.
 

SerenaRulez

Well-Known Member
I am a little bit worried about how Ash's Lucario is going to get treated now that he's on the series poster with Ash, Goh, Cinderace and Pikachu but I will wait to see what happens.

But I'm super excited for Goh's Raboot to evolve because I want to see how Cinderace will be treated and if he will fight more.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
Raboot will lose his uniqueness and go back to being a Chespin/Oshawott.

Lucario is what I'm looking forward to, FINALLY my all time favorite actually gets a major role! Unlike Eevee and Charizard, who apparently will never stop having major roles, new gimmickss and hogging spotlight....
It's sure to be his first Mega, I do hope Charizard gets to do it at least. I'd rather Charizard do it first but so long as he gets to go Mega(X no doubt) I'm perfectly okay with it.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Raboot will lose his uniqueness and go back to being a Chespin/Oshawott.

Lucario is what I'm looking forward to, FINALLY my all time favorite actually gets a major role! Unlike Eevee and Charizard, who apparently will never stop having major roles, new gimmickss and hogging spotlight....
It's sure to be his first Mega, I do hope Charizard gets to do it at least. I'd rather Charizard do it first but so long as he gets to go Mega(X no doubt) I'm perfectly okay with it.
In all honesty any argument to try to call Scorbunny Chespin/Oshawott 2.0 died the moment it evolved into Raboot even if it’s personality when it becomes Cinderace is similar to what it was as a Scorbunny it still wouldn’t be a Chespin/Oshawott clone.
 

Mythical-Moonlight

Well-Known Member
In all honesty any argument to try to call Scorbunny Chespin/Oshawott 2.0 died the moment it evolved into Raboot even if it’s personality when it becomes Cinderace is similar to what it was as a Scorbunny it still wouldn’t be a Chespin/Oshawott clone.
I think they meant to personality wise. Not evolution wise.

I still disagree tho

I think Cinderace will be more outwardly emotional and fun loving like Scorbunny
But with the coolness and maturity of Raboot

I think it'll have a very Kamina-esque personality to compliment Sobble's Simon-esque personality

(For those who don't get the reference please watch Toppa Tegan Gurren Lagan. It's a really good anime 10/10 recommend)
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Zoruagible said:
Raboot will lose his uniqueness and go back to being a Chespin/Oshawott.
I highly doubt that he'll regress like that. He already went through his Harimaron phase when he was a Hibanny, so I wouldn't see the point of the writers going back to that, especially since Aceburn is too big for conventional gag scenes that Hibanny and the other little mascot Pokemon had.
 
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