Ash's/Satoshi's Character Needs a Major Overhaul and More Consistency

[satopi]

Japan was complaining during the transition from XY to SM, even making fanart showing how "ugly" Ash's SM design was. Their fanart was all over their twitter at the time.

Anyway, people don't like seeing Ash be a fool...this late in the series. It was fine in Kanto because it was the first series. Do you honestly think people would have been fine with Ash in Hoenn being worst than he was in the OS? People were actually impressed Ash seemed to be more mature for once. The way he interacted with May was a shark contrast to Misty at the time that it arguably felt like he was changing.

Ash has always had dumb moments and has been a buttmonkey before. In that same saga you mentioned about how impressed people were of Ash being so mature in Hoenn, the same guy really thought he could fly because of some mind trick in that Swablu episode! This doesn’t mean that he’s a fool who can’t distinguish from his right foot to his left. Ash is mature in SM and for once, he’s the newcomer surrounded by everyone who’s lived there for years. He’s bound to make mistakes and in the beginning, his over excitement and curiosity bit him but later on, you’ll notice that he isn’t so giddy and making stupid mistakes as he did in the first few episodes. I don’t know why you brought up his “ugly” design to counterattack the post about how most people don’t notice subtle changes and points out the similar forests used in Kalos from the previous sagas. Even in the Detective Raki episode, it’s mentioned that since it’s a long running series, they involuntarily make mistakes from time to time. It’s been shown before that Ash has been mature though it doesn’t mean he has to act in an obvious way to see it.

 

[catzeye]

Ash has always had dumb moments and has been a buttmonkey before. In that same saga you mentioned about how impressed people were of Ash being so mature in Hoenn, the same guy really thought he could fly because of some mind trick in that Swablu episode!

I think the thing is that his buttmonkey tendencies were balanced with mature mentor moments and level-headed battle strategies in Hoenn. I don't think people want him to be completely mature all of the time(as a lot of people complain that XY Ash was too serious and bland). It's just that we don't want him to be butt-monkey 24/7 or be dumb in times he should really know better (like only bringing one Pokemon to fight Elesa). It's okay for him to make some mistakes when he is new to a region because he is a newcomer, but not growing out of it would be an issue.

 

[MidnightMelody]

I think the thing is that his buttmonkey tendencies were balanced with mature mentor moments and level-headed battle strategies in Hoenn. I don't think people want him to be completely mature all of the time(as a lot of people complain that XY Ash was too serious and bland). It's just that we don't want him to be butt-monkey 24/7 or be dumb in times he should really know better (like only bringing one Pokemon to fight Elesa). It's okay for him to make some mistakes when he is new to a region because he is a newcomer, but not growing out of it would be an issue.

I always thought him bringing one pokemon was him being over confident more than anything.

 

[Dream Lad]

It's too late for Sword & Shield to "fix" Ash's character because his consistency as a character is so mismanaged that no series, no matter how great or how awesome, can fix it. The fact that people are trying to make sense out of Ash's inconsistency by throwing out Best Wishes, which comprises hundreds of episodes that's part of the continuity whether fans like it or not, in the trash just even further proves that Ash's character is incredibly inconsistent because fans have to literally throw a huge chunk of continuity just to make sense out of it. Actually, the even sadder part is that fans felt like Ash grew as a character in four generations, as in it took over 600 episodes to develop and mature Ash into a serious and experienced character. It shouldn't take that long to develop one character into an experience trainer. You know how long it took for the Pokemon Adventures manga to turn Red, a quick learner, into an experienced trainer? 40 chapters which if you don't quite understand how short that is, if your a One Piece fan that's around the first three story arcs of One Piece which is 18 episodes. That is short and yet you can tell how Red grew so fast.

To be honest, Ash's slow progression from Original Series to Diamond and Pearl was realistic. Leagues don't have children or adult divisions, nor are there seedings from what we know. Except for Ritchie and Cameron, Ash has generally lost to older, highly experienced trainers. In professional tennis, unless in rare cases, most of the Grand Slam winners take several years on tour before their game is good enough to reach the highest level. I agree that the issue from Original Series --> Diamond and Pearl was the number of episodes (3 or 4 years worth of them between leagues), but Ash taking multiple regions to go from Top 16 to Top 4 was fine (the only gripe being Ash vs Tyson should have a semifinal, though Hoenn League did have the toughest league conference format by far).

Best Wishes is weird. Regardless of his personality shifts, if it goes from XY Ash reaching Top 2 to Sun & Moon Ash winning this Alola pseduo league to Sword & Shield Ash winning a gym-qualification league in Galar, then Best Wishes was just an anomaly after all.
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I still subscribe to the 'remake theory' I see over the Internet however. Each new series calls back to one of the originals. BW = OS; DA = OI; XY = AG; SM = BF (Island Kahunas ~ Frontier Brains); and possibly SS = DP.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

Speculating again, but Ash's league placing in BW to seemed like an attempt to break away from an emerging pattern in order to surprise fans. Whether intentional or not, DP established a pattern of Ash gradually improving his league performances every major season. My bet is that the writers and director realised this as well, and were worried that the Unova league would turn out too predictable if they continued with the same pattern. This may also be why they had Trip face Ash early on instead of at the climax.

You can kinda see why they would do this, but of course, their execution was hopelessly bad.

BW is just a fascinating case in general. It had the same director as DP and the same core team of writers, and they obviously had different ideas in mind, but they weren't able to execute as well they would have wanted to. Perhaps it was just fatigue after DP. They seemed re-energised for XY under new leadership.

 

[Leonhart]

I always thought him bringing one pokemon was him being over confident more than anything.

In a way I guess I could see how someone might come to that conclusion, although to me it seemed more like Satoshi was just being reckless, which I think makes more sense when you consider that Satoshi did ridiculous things during Best Wishes all the time.

 

[HolyNova Lucario]

I still subscribe to the 'remake theory' however. Each new series calls back to one of the originals. BW = OS; DA = OI; XY = AG; SM = BF (Island Kahunas ~ Frontier Brains); and possibly SS = DP.

That's the first time I have ever seen this theory, that's interesting. If indeed the anime is following this theory, that implies the series is going to "reset" yet again after Sword and Shield.

 

[shoz999]

To be honest, Ash's slow progression from OS --> DP was realistic. Leagues don't have junior or senior divisions, nor are there seeding from what we know. Except for Ritchie and Cameron, Ash has generally lost to older, highly experienced trainers. In professional tennis, unless in rare cases, most of the Grand Slam winners take several years on tour before their game is good enough to reach the highest level. I agree that the issue from OS --> DP was the number of episodes (3 or 4 years worth of them between leagues), but Ash taking multiple regions to go from Top 16 --> Top 4 was fine (the only gripe being Ash vs Tyson should have the semifinal, though Hoenn League did have the toughest format by far).

Honestly the writers had the perfect set-up, but dropped the ball. Ash vs Tyson should have been the HL semifinal, then Ash should have accepted the Frontier Brain position to get better, then timeskip, and Sinnoh should have been the final region. Ash vs Paul should have been the finals with both using their best teams OR Ash vs Paul happens like it did except in semifinals, and then Ash should have defeated Tobias with his best all-regional team (Pika/Zard/Hera/Snor/Scep/Inf).

Best Wishes is weird. Regardless of his personality shifts, if it goes from XY Ash reaching Top 2 --> SM Ash winning this Alola pseduo league --> SS Ash winning a gym-qualification league in Galar, then BW was just an anomaly after all.
------------------------------------------------

I still subscribe to the 'remake theory' however. Each new series calls back to one of the originals. BW = OS; DA = OI; XY = AG; SM = BF (Island Kahunas ~ Frontier Brains); and possibly SS = DP.

At the very least for me, how Ash's journey is handled isn't realistic. There's slow progress and then there's Ash's progress which feels like it's forever at times. In the Pokemon Adventures manga and implied in the Pokemon Origins anime, Red often learns something, be it a lesson in life or what it means to become a trainer from each and every Gym Leader and we see Red gain something new from each battle he has, be it against the Gym Leader or against Team Rocket or his legendary rivalry with Blue. When Red becomes Pokemon Champion in the Adventures manga after exploring one region, it feels like he earned it whereas Ash's journey almost has none of this and thus feels far slower. In fact, now that I've discussed this, I think I'm starting to realize why people like Ash's rivalry with Paul so much because his rivalry actually teaches Ash some lessons in quick succession. Still it took four generations to reach that rivalry. Not only that but what people say about Ash being at his very best and should've won the Pokemon League in either DP or XY after all this progress, I don't think Ash at his strongest is even close to Champion-level based on what I've seen in how the Pokemon Adventures manga convincingly shows that Pokemon Champions strength do indeed have some limits and those who push those limits are on a similar level, if not surpass some of those Pokemon Champions and in the Pokemon anime, we've really seen no character able to push the Pokemon Champion's limit which honestly has me thinking that although Paul at his strongest is a pro trainer compared to a lot of rookies, he's an amateur compared to the Pokemon Champions.

 

[HolyNova Lucario]

Not only that but what people say about Ash being at his very best and should've won the Pokemon League in either DP or XY after all this progress, I don't think Ash at his strongest is even close to Champion-level based on what I've seen in how the Pokemon Adventures manga convincingly shows that Pokemon Champions strength do indeed have some limits and those who push those limits are on a similar level, if not surpass some of those Pokemon Champions and in the Pokemon anime, we've really seen no character able to push the Pokemon Champion's limit which honestly has me thinking that although Paul at his strongest is a pro trainer compared to a lot of rookies, he's an amateur compared to the Pokemon Champions.

The only time Ash has ever shown a glimmer of actually "pushing" a Champion was during his 1v1 battle with Dianta, using his Greninja against Diantha's Ace Pokemon Gardevoir in the XY & Z series. I'm not convinced Ash would have won that battle, but it was pretty evident that Ash was dominating at the end until he had a small heart attack. But it could be assumed that Diantha was not going all out at the start and was just momentarily caught off guard.

 

[Kintaro]

Isn't it kinda noticeable Ash is portrayed as stronger and more competent in the sagas he has the female protagonist of the games with him (May, Dawn and Serena), and then he's portrayed as weaker with a far worse pokemon teams in the sagas without them?

Granted we can excuse Misty since the OS was the start of the show and Ash was a beginner, but it's noticeable in BW and SM. His starters don't fully evolved, he's portrayed as stupid/silly, etc. The only difference is Lillie worships Ash similar to previous girls and there's no Misty/Iris type character in SM. In fact all 3 SM girls look up to Ash.

 

[Dream Lad]

That's the first time I have ever seen this theory, that's interesting. If indeed the anime is following this theory, that implies the series is going to "reset" yet again after Sword and Shield.

Ideally, there won't be another "reset", but rather just an ending.

Honestly, if they really want to keep Ash, then just write an ending to current Ash's story. Then they can do a complete restart with Ash/Pikachu in Gen 9's region.

At the very least for me, how Ash's journey is handled isn't realistic. There's slow progress and then there's Ash's progress which feels like it's forever at times. In the Pokemon Adventures manga and implied in the Pokemon Origins anime, Red often learns something, be it a lesson in life or what it means to become a trainer from each and every Gym Leader and we see Red gain something new from each battle he has, be it against the Gym Leader or against Team Rocket or his legendary rivalry with Blue. When Red becomes Pokemon Champion in the Adventures manga after exploring one region, it feels like he earned it whereas Ash's journey almost has none of this and thus feels far slower. In fact, now that I've discussed this, I think I'm starting to realize why people like Ash's rivalry with Paul so much because his rivalry actually teaches Ash some lessons in quick succession. Still it took four generations to reach that rivalry. Not only that but what people say about Ash being at his very best and should've won the Pokemon League in either DP or XY after all this progress, I don't think Ash at his strongest is even close to Champion-level based on what I've seen in how the Pokemon Adventures manga convincingly shows that Pokemon Champions strength do indeed have some limits and those who push those limits are on a similar level, if not surpass some of those Pokemon Champions and in the Pokemon anime, we've really seen no character able to push the Pokemon Champion's limit which honestly has me thinking that although Paul at his strongest is a pro trainer compared to a lot of rookies, he's an amateur compared to the Pokemon Champions.

Well, if the writers did end Ash's story in DP based on everything they set up, then the anime would have finished at 660 episodes. Still very long, but better than the 1070 we're at right now. The problem with the anime is that it's episodic and repetitive (especially with Team Rocket) and has plenty of fillers, so I'd say a couple hundred non-essential episodes could be removed right there.

I think it's realistic for a trainer to take time to become good. Perhaps Advanced Generation Ash should have showed up in Johto, and each region's development could have been bumped up a region. Other than that, I thought OS --> DP was fine. The opposite extreme happened with Sawyer in XY. He shows up as a rookie and gets demolished by Clemont, Valerie, and Ash. Then 60 episodes later, he becomes some Smogon analyst with a fully evolved team. It was jarring.

XY showed Ash and Alain faring well against the Elite 4 and Champions. Ash already completed the Battle Frontier, and some of the Frontier Brains are on par with the Elite 4. On top of that, Pikachu, Charizard, and Sceptile defeated legendary Pokemon. I think with a DP or XY competency + his best team (Pikachu, Charizard, Greninja, Sceptile, Infernape, Snorlax), Ash definitely could take on the Elite 4.

 

[HolyNova Lucario]

Ash already completed the Battle Frontier, and some of the Frontier Brains are on par with the Elite 4.

I would say all Frontier Brains are between 8th Gym Leader level and lower Elite Four Level at best.

 

[shoz999]

Ideally, there won't be another "reset", but rather just an ending.

Honestly, if they really want to keep Ash, then just write an ending to current Ash's story. Then they can do a complete restart with Ash/Pikachu in Gen 9's region.



Well, if the writers did end Ash's story in DP based on everything they set up, then the anime would have finished at 660 episodes. Still very long, but better than the 1070 we're at right now. The problem with the anime is that it's episodic and repetitive (especially with Team Rocket) and has plenty of fillers, so I'd say a couple hundred non-essential episodes could be removed right there.

I think it's realistic for a trainer to take time to become good. Perhaps AG Ash should have showed up in Johto, and each region's development could have been bumped up a region. Other than that, I thought OS --> DP was fine. The opposite extreme happened with Sawyer in XY. He shows up as a rookie and gets demolished by Clemont, Valerie, and Ash. Then 60 episodes later, he becomes some Smogon analyst with a fully evolved team. It was jarring.

XY showed Ash and Alain faring well against the Elite 4 and Champions. Ash already completed the Battle Frontier, and some of the Frontier Brains are on par with the Elite 4. On top of that, Pikachu, Charizard, and Sceptile defeated legendary Pokemon. I think with a DP or XY competency + his best team (Pikachu, Charizard, Greninja, Sceptile, Infernape, Snorlax), Ash definitely could take on the Elite 4.

I find Sawyer's growth as a trainer to be one of the more realistic ones as he did really took his time. I do agree with you that a trainer should take his time but for Ash's case, he takes way too much time to progress as a talented trainer. Also while the repetitive and episodic filler is a big problem, that's an explanation of why Ash's character takes so long to progress, not an excuse.

I would say all Frontier Brains are between 8th Gym Leader level and lower Elite Four Level at best.

If your going by the anime, maybe but if your going by the Adventures manga, I'd say there at the very most Elite Four level. Intersetingly, I had an discussion about someone over this and he wouldn't admit the possibility that the anime's depiction might be questionable until I finally found some hard evidence that at the very least says that the Frontier Brain's strength varies from adaptation.

 

[mehmeh1]

I find Sawyer's growth as a trainer to be one of the more realistic ones as he did really took his time. I do agree with you that a trainer should take his time but for Ash's case, he takes way too much time to progress as a talented trainer. Also while the repetitive and episodic filler is a big problem, that's an explanation of why Ash's character takes so long to progress, not an excuse.


If your going by the anime, maybe but if your going by the Adventures manga, I'd say there at the very most Elite Four level. Intersetingly, I had an discussion about someone over this and he wouldn't admit the possibility that the anime's depiction might be questionable until I finally found some hard evidence that at the very least says that the Frontier Brain's strength varies from adaptation.

IDK, sawyer a bit of time to get his footing, but when he did he was somehow able to almost match up with a guy who had gone through about 8 travels (counting OI and BF, not DA as that was more of a trip back home than anything else)

 

[shoz999]

IDK, sawyer a bit of time to get his footing, but when he did he was somehow able to almost match up with a guy who had gone through about 8 travels (counting OI and BF, not DA as that was more of a trip back home than anything else)

The funny thing about this is that we are going to see more rivals who started their Pokemon journey early on in their introduction and rapidly catch up to Ash who will be traveling to more and more regions in the future.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

The only difference is Lillie worships Ash similar to previous girls and there's no Misty/Iris type character in SM. In fact all 3 SM girls look up to Ash.

That is hilariously untrue and the SM girls barely ever interact with Ash in any meaningful capacity, much less worship him

Lillie thanking Ash for butting into private family affairs and blowing up her mother doesn't mean she idolizes him

 

[Leonhart]

I'm not convinced Ash would have won that battle, but it was pretty evident that Ash was dominating at the end until he had a small heart attack. But it could be assumed that Diantha was not going all out at the start and was just momentarily caught off guard.

I've said this several times in the past whenever the whole Satoshi versus Carnet debate rears its head. I don't think Satoshi was going to win, especially since Carnet's Mega Sirnight had already gotten up off the ground and was ready to continue battling right before Satoshi and Gekkouga became incapacitated. So to me it didn't seem like Satoshi had the upper hand.

 

[Dream Lad]

I find Sawyer's growth as a trainer to be one of the more realistic ones as he did really took his time. I do agree with you that a trainer should take his time but for Ash's case, he takes way too much time to progress as a talented trainer. Also while the repetitive and episodic filler is a big problem, that's an explanation of why Ash's character takes so long to progress, not an excuse.

Personally, I felt much of Sawyer's development came off-screen, so each time he reappeared, he got these random power ups that felt totally unearned. Ash earned a bunch of pity badges in Kanto, and his team had several NFEs. We saw Ash lose his first league because Charizard didn't respect him enough as a trainer. Meanwhile, Sawyer has a freaking Mega Sceptile and Salamence, and reaches the semifinals and nearly defeats a seasoned veteran. I thought OS Kanto did a good job showing the struggles of a rookie trainer. On the other hand, you have Sawyer in 60 episodes able to fully evolve his team, train complex strategies against every member of Ash's team, and master attack chaining, all while being a rookie. It felt too much IMO.

Regarding the latter point, what I meant to say is that without the filler padding, Ash could have won the league in DP in 300-400 non-filler plot development episodes.

 

[Leonhart]

Personally, I felt much of Sawyer's development came off-screen, so each time he reappeared, he got these random power ups that felt totally unearned. Ash earned a bunch of pity badges in Kanto, and his team had several NFEs. We saw Ash lose his first league because Charizard didn't respect him enough as a trainer. Meanwhile, Sawyer has a freaking Mega Sceptile and Salamence, and reaches the semifinals and nearly defeats a seasoned veteran. I thought OS Kanto did a good job showing the struggles of a rookie trainer. On the other hand, you have Sawyer in 60 episodes able to fully evolve his team, train complex strategies against every member of Ash's team, and master attack chaining, all while being a rookie. It felt too much IMO.

But the main difference between Shota and someone like Satoshi is that Shota was revealed to be quite bright when he debuted, so his rate of development being quicker than Satoshi's seemed justified by his intelligence from my perspective. The fact that he developed off-screen isn't really such a big flaw anyway when you consider that the same thing applies to all recurring characters and rivals, not just him.

 

[Dream Lad]

But the main difference between Shota and someone like Satoshi is that Shota was revealed to be quite bright when he debuted, so his rate of development being quicker than Satoshi's seemed justified by his intelligence from my perspective. The fact that he developed off-screen isn't really such a big flaw anyway when you consider that the same thing applies to all recurring characters and rivals, not just him.

I guess I'm just not a fan of these prodigy trainer types who have these epic teams with great strategy all within "weeks/months" after having started their journey. I find it unrealistic, especially when I compare it to a real sport. That's why I liked how they wrote Paul; he had traveled for several regions prior to DP, so his skills made sense.