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Ash's/Satoshi's Character Needs a Major Overhaul and More Consistency

BTS_fan

Immortal Queen
I hate prodigy trainers too and whenever people say stuff like "Ash should be way smarter" I always disagree because to me Ash wouldn't be as enjoyable if he was smarter. It's his flaws that make him an enjoyable protagonist although sometimes the writers go too far like when Black and White happened.
 

Kintaro

Banned
That is hilariously untrue and the SM girls barely ever interact with Ash in any meaningful capacity, much less worship him

Lillie thanking Ash for butting into private family affairs and blowing up her mother doesn't mean she idolizes him

Well not to the extent of Serena, but Lillie definitely has a “Ash can do no wrong” mentality. They’ve never argued or bickered once.

Neither May nor Dawn put Ash on a pedestal and called him out and argued with him, it’s something that stopped with later girls. Blows my mind a decade ago people kept complaining May and Dawn were too “nice” around Ash too, just goes to show you those people had no idea what they were talking about.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Lillie doesn’t have an “Ash can do no wrong” mentality. She may have that with Gladion but not Ash. She doesn’t treat Ash differently from Kiawe or Sophocles or any of her friends. I don’t even think she even thinks of Ash much when she’s preoccupied studying and uncovering her own family history.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think Lillie looks up to Ash to some degree (likely to mirror a similar role with the games protagonists), but to a mild degree, she is more or less the 'little sister' of the group, so you'd expect her to be wide eyed, especially to someone who looks out for her.

SM Ash is kind of rounded out well due to the number of supporting characters he has. I think Ash's characterisation often varies according to the characters they introduce and what they feel best works as a foil for them. If the new companion is relegated as a straight man, Ash will usually foil that by being more foolish, if the new companion is the rookie or butt monkey instead, Ash will be more mature and competent. With SM there's a wild variety of characters and a heavier focus on chemistries so different areas of Ash can shine more often than usual. The biggest consistency is that SM Ash tends to do the lion's share of comedy, meaning he tends to maintain a level of goofiness to him (though if he is pit next to another SM character with similar comedy/butt monkey levels, he can still be a more level headed counterpart).
 

Kintaro

Banned
There's just no conflict or banter between Ash and his companions anymore, and hasn't been for 3 generations. Even Ash and Iris didn't really argue, she just called him a kid and Ash shook it off.

I don't know why people forget Ash and May and Dawn had arguments and bickered, they would make sarcastic comments toward Ash, they would talk back to him, etc. I guess people wrongly remember Ash/Misty being the only pair that bickered, I don't know why people forget he used to have a lot of sibling-like banter with May and Dawn, something all the newer groups lack.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
He's had light arguments with Kiawe, Sophocles and Rotom and a serious one with the latter. He's also recurrently annoyed Mallow. Not often but they have realistic childish bickering that isn't dramatic fall outs.

SM is fond of these small but noticeable checks to former Ashes actually. We get brief moments of bickering Ash, sarcastic Ash, temperamental Ash, inspirational Ash, cocksure Ash, all while trying to keep it within the same base personality. That Ash by default is kind of high on emotions helps.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Dream Lad said:
I guess I'm just not a fan of these prodigy trainer types who have these epic teams with great strategy all within "weeks/months" after having started their journey. I find it unrealistic, especially when I compare it to a real sport. That's why I liked how they wrote Paul; he had traveled for several regions prior to DP, so his skills made sense.

I think it's a bit unfair to hold Shinji as the standard to which all other rivals must aspire to be like, though. I liked how Shinji and Satoshi interacted back in the DP saga since the rivalry motivated Satoshi to try harder, but I'm somewhat glad that the writers took a different approach with Shota. Generally speaking I'm not a big fan of Shota, but I thought that he served as a believable rival, and at the very least he didn't become the "dream crusher" at the Kalos League. That would've made Satoshi look pretty bad, and would've been almost as awful as his loss against Kotetsu at the Isshu League.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
I also agree that OS -> AG -> DP gave Ash an organic progression where it felt like Ash was gradually getting better as both a trainer and person. BW spat in the face of that and in my view XY did an admirable job trying to put Ash back in-line with his OS - DP self. Here’s a post I had written a long time ago regarding XY Ash being a natural progression of DP Ash:

“XY Ash felt like he picked up right where DP Ash left off. Even early on we see him using eerly similar tactics like using Froakie’s frubbles in novel ways like how he also used Buizel’s flotation sack in an unorthodox manner, and also his RT/DM/AS climb is an extension of the “rock climbing” that Pikachu did in Ash’s Sinnoh League battle with Paul. In terms of character, DP Ash while mature still had quite the temper especially when he thought someone was being incompetent (e.g. Dawn when they battle the tag champs the first time) or when someone’s views vastly diverged from his own (e.g. Paul with respect to philosophy on raising Pokémon) whereas XY Ash was considerably more mellow and rarely let his temper get the better of him. XY Ash was also far more accepting of contrasting views than DP Ash was. Back to the Paul example; Ash at first couldn’t stand Paul’s views on Pokémon raising though by the end of DP he had come to accept that those methods were also a legitimate way of raising Pokémon and that not everyone has to go about it like him. Similarly in XYZ Ash is familiar with Alain being highly motivated by strength yet eventhough Ash himself faltered when he began prioritizing strength too highly instead of love, Ash never chastised Alain on the matter since at this point he understands that just because he isn’t compatible with certain viewpoints, it doesn’t mean that other people can’t benefit from having those views either.

DP Ash while a brilliant tactician was very prone to anxiety when the going got tough which would hinder his thinking speed and negatively affect his Pokémon. This can be seen in his battle with Conway where he showed visible panic against Trick Room, easily lost 2 of his Pokémon, never properly countered the move and only won because of Gible’s unpredictability. Contrast this with Valerie where against Trick Room he maintained his composure, quickly thought of counter strategies for both of his Pokémon and won the battle on pure merit (he was unquestionably the more skilled trainer). While he ultimately persevered in his SL battle with Paul, Paul was initially able to effectively exploit this weakness of Ash’s during the early stages of their match by countering him every time he had a major burst of ingenuity and this resulted in Ash making a critical error with regards to the timing of Torterra’s synthesis. Even in the initial Kalos gym battles this flaw remains. Against Viola we see Ash visibly distraught after his first loss since he wasn’t able to quickly think up counters to the strategies Viola used for their rematch. Even as far as Ramos we see Ash visibly anxious when his back was against the wall and he was only able to regain his composure after encouragement from Pikachu. After this point though Ash no longer has this flaw and understands that having such an attitude will both negatively affect his judgment and his Pokémon (he even gives Sawyer advice on this in XY 75).

Even DP Ash was never able to competitively battle with the E4 with Bertha only using their battle to test and develop Ash’s observation, and she destroyed him the moment she upped the difficulty after which she told him how he still had a long way to go, as well as Flint’s Infernape casually stomping Buizel and Infernape, only getting somewhat serious against Pikachu and yet Pikachu didn’t manage to make F-Ape “sell” with any of its hits. Then we have Paul who was meant to be considered as Ash’s equal yet the Sinnoh Champion gave him a curbstomp to end all curbstomps. In XY it’s the same at first with Diantha effortlessly wrecking Ash and Pikachu though then... it happened! In XYZ 25 Ash showed for the first time in over 900 episodes that he could in fact battle competitively with trainers of the highest lvl and could realistically beat the E4s and Champions someday. In the Kalos League he had his best placement yet as runner up and while he technically was also 2nd best in Sinnoh, he got owned 6-2 by Tobias whereas in Kalos he lost in a very close 6-5 after putting up a valiant fight against the only non-E4/Champion trainer in the entire series who was able to defeat the Ace of an E4 Pokémon that too the Mega variant which would be substantially stronger (with a monster like that as an Ace Alain in all likelihood would destroy both Tobias’s Darkrai and Latios with relative ease and do the same to the rest of his team unless he had some secret weapon that’s a lot stronger than those 2 were) a.k.a Ash’s Alain feat > Ash’s Tobias feat. Ash also flat-out gave his best performance in terms of skill till date against Alain and yes I’m including Ash vs Paul SL when I say. (https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ashs-goat-performance-as-a-trainer.662645/). Finally in the last episode of DP, Ash looks in awe at the high lvl battle that Cynthia and Flint were having, and even vicariously projects himself on to Flint in order to imagine what a battle of that caliber would feel like. Well in XYZ he didn’t have to imagine anyomore; with his Ash-Greninja being in the Champion Ace/E4 Mega Ace spectrum and Alain’s Mega Charizard X being the strongest Pokémon in existence barring Champion Mega Aces and maybe Lysandre’s Mega Red Gyarados, Ash and Alain’s climactic match in the Kalos League Finals was conducted at a decisviely higher lvl!!!

XY truly was the culmination of Ash Ketchum as both a trainer and a human being; at the end of XYZ he already had both the skill and mentality to be a top tier trainer on par with even the E4s and Champions, and all that’s left to do is train up his Pokémon a bit more.”
 

Dream Lad

Banned
I think it's a bit unfair to hold Shinji as the standard to which all other rivals must aspire to be like, though. I liked how Shinji and Satoshi interacted back in the DP saga since the rivalry motivated Satoshi to try harder, but I'm somewhat glad that the writers took a different approach with Shota. Generally speaking I'm not a big fan of Shota, but I thought that he served as a believable rival, and at the very least he didn't become the "dream crusher" at the Kalos League. That would've made Satoshi look pretty bad, and would've been almost as awful as his loss against Kotetsu at the Isshu League.

I didn't want Sawyer to be like Paul. I actually liked the idea of Ash being a 'mentor' rival. It fit with the whole XY ~ AG where Ash was kind of a mentor to May, and with how much everyone looked up to Ash in XY, a Jedi/Padawan rivalry made sense. The problem was the execution of that idea. (Also Sawyer's design was horrible; it should have been Wally) They should have introduced him before episode 20, and every dozen 10-15 episodes he shows up and Ash helps fast track his progress that we see on-screen.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Dream Lad said:
They should have introduced him before episode 20, and every dozen 10-15 episodes he shows up and Ash helps fast track his progress that we see on-screen.

Fair enough I guess. While on the subject, I don't like the idea of Satoshi mentoring other characters, though. He's done it before, but I've always thought that his own experience fluctuates so rapidly that he's not really in any position to be giving other trainers advice since he often falls flat on his face even with all his previously gained knowledge on Pokemon.
 

Kintaro

Banned
Misty could have been a rival for Ash because she put him in his place and remained large and in charge. But the writers dropped it as the OS progressed.
 

SatoSereFan224888

Well-Known Member
I think Ash should be replaced as the main character for Galar. It's time for a new hero to shine in the limelight. Ash peaked in Kalos. It's time for him to move on and give up on his dream of becoming a Pokemon master.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I think Ash should be replaced as the main character for Galar. It's time for a new hero to shine in the limelight. Ash peaked in Kalos. It's time for him to move on and give up on his dream of becoming a Pokemon master.
Ash peaked at the Battle Frontier, he has been inconsistent as a character ever since the writing staff decided to start doing 180s with him starting in DP.
 

SatoSereFan224888

Well-Known Member
Ash peaked at the Battle Frontier, he has been inconsistent as a character ever since the writing staff decided to start doing 180s with him starting in DP.
Still the anime really needs a new hero.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I don't think a new hero would change anything. The people that want Ash to grow into a Champion or whatever and grew up with Ash still won't get what they want then because this new hero would just do what Ash would've done in their place, and the anime would just lose an important marketing icon because whoever the new hero is there wouldn't be much that'd actually be better about them than Ash. Ash's personality fits this franchise like a glove. Bumbling and clumsy enough to be funny and relatable, not so overpowered to make the plot boring or the important battles one-sided, righteous enough to stay likeable and a solid role-model, and enthusiastic and passionate enough to get plots going and stay on the course that the games and this world lay out.
 

MadaMada

Well-Known Member
End his story in 2026, the 30th Anniversary of Pokemon.

Assuming, Sword and Shield lasts 3 years. 2020 to 2022. Drag the next Generation for 4 years; they have done this before...

Rush through the regular story in 2.5 years main league. Then have a timeskip of like 2 to 5 years; it doesn't matter, he is 10 years old... then return him to Kanto to conclude his story.

He can show off his beefed up Pokemon he trained during the timeskip. For instance, surprise us by sending out a Venusaur, Blastoise, and Garchomp. Surprise us with Pidgeot and Primeape.

Have him beat officially Team Rocket, team up with Mewtwo for some epic conclusion, then have him return to the Kanto League, beat the Elite 4, and make him the Champion of Kanto.

Then reset the Pokemon Anime in the next season, with a new character, and I guess Pikachu... but no more Ash, Ash is now only known as a legend that saved the Pokemon world.

2026 is the 30th Anniversary of Pokemon. Assuming kids that grew up in Gen 1 was around 10 years old in 1996. They be 40 years old already. It should be a last push for kanto pandering and the people that grew up with Ash.

The problem with Ash is that he is multi generational mascot character. You can't make him strong, you can't make him weak him, you can't progress him without deprogressing him. The Anime has to go on, but it's hard to write Ash as a character that develops if there is no end to his development. He can't be too mature because young kids are watching him. He can't be too dumb because 30 year old adults are watching him. The writers essentially wrote themselves to a corner, and it's worst you can't replace him because he has become too iconic...
 

MidnightMelody

Hopeful for Gen 8
The concept of needing a mascot in 2019 for a show or series is so stupid. If it was sports ok but the concept for anything else is so dated tbh. If Ash does win Alola only to get the chance to face Kukui and loses I would not be shocked if it is his last arc. I would get people being meh if it was his last region but if it means being Ash free I'm all for it. Or at the very least do a time skip and let Ash be a mentor to the new kid. I just feel a league win would change the anime up a lot even if it is Alola.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
SatoSereFan224888 said:
I think Ash should be replaced as the main character for Galar. It's time for a new hero to shine in the limelight. Ash peaked in Kalos. It's time for him to move on and give up on his dream of becoming a Pokemon master.

He's not going to just abandon his dream. A big part of his character has always been his drive to accomplish his goal no matter how many setbacks he faces, so him calling it a day would be the opposite of what his character is primarily about. I think he has a lot of room for improvement anyway, so I don't think he's really peaked.
 
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