Ash's/Satoshi's Character Needs a Major Overhaul and More Consistency

[MockingJ]

The only way to fix Ash would be for the writers to actually give a damn about writing him well but since they don't care about giving his substance, we're just stuck with him until the anime ends because hell will freeze over before he gets replaced.

 

[Almighty Zard]

That's always going to be the eternal question, compared to all other anime's of the genre, why won't they pull the trigger and let Ash go?

Personally, I want him to leave as well, or at the very least be put in a mentor role for a new protag the same way Brock was to him (If he was to stay forever), symbolizing his growth, but at the same time there at least two things that need to happen first.

1. TR needs to be dealt with, since it seems that as long as Ash is around they will be as well, this could be subverted if Ash was put into a "Brock" role though.

2. He needs to win a real league, the alolan league is set up like the last Don George tournament was (where Trip got to Fight Alder) with no bearing at all should he win or lose. So far Sinnoh and Kalos were the best two times to give him that chance to win a league and they took it away at the last minute.

Heck if Ash does win, I hope that when he goes to Galar and tries to play up the fact he won this "League" , no one takes it serious since it wasn't a true league given the setup.

 

[Leonhart]

As much as I like the Pokemon Special manga, I'm not sure that I'd want to see an anime adaptation of that series. I feel like the series has been successful because it's in manga form, and an anime adaptation probably wouldn't end up being as good as the manga. I get that people dislike how Satoshi's been handled, but I honestly think I'd take him over someone like Red as a protagonist. No disrespect to Red, but it's harder for me to care about his development by comparison to Satoshi's since I view Satoshi as being so much more iconic than Red even though Red is arguably the better written character.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

I disagree regarding us supposedly not knowing how his replacement might behave. Common sense tells us that even if Satoshi gets replaced, his replacement would almost certainly have a similar personality to him since there would be a niche to fill, and the replacement becoming a doppelgänger of Satoshi would be the easiest way to fill that spot. I also don't trust the writing staff to be able to come up with anything new in terms of personality traits for the replacement in the first place.

Why is it common sense for Ash's replacement to have a similar personality? There's no precedent for that within the show. In fact, any character they have replaced, they've replaced with someone with a different personality. May wasn't Misty 2.0, Dawn wasn't May 2.0, Cilan wasn't Brock 2.0, and so on.

Based on this, your mistrust isn't warranted. It's demonstrable in the show itself that they're capable of creating a diverse pool of characters and don't just seek to replicate traits from characters gone-by. Is it that much of a stretch to think this would apply to a hypothetical Ash replacement as well?

That's an interesting point of view given that practically everyone who has criticized Satoshi in this thread has called him inconsistent.

Inconsistent in competency and in which aspects of his personality are emphasised, but not in how he responds to situations. He is angered, saddened, delighted, etc. by the same things in every season. Consider, for example, that Ash got giddy over Cilan's inventions in XY in the same way he gets giddy over things in SM, even though he's perceived as a different character in both seasons.

But this is another reason why I'm against the idea: given the abominable way that many of the main characters have been handled throughout the series, why should I have faith that a new protagonist would be handled any better? The anime's reputation for questionable writing proceeds it no matter what kind of change the producers/showrunners try to add to spice things up.

Which characters, besides Ash? I thought May, Dawn, Serena and Clement were handled just fine. I think Lillie can be added to that list eventually, too. Ash himself was written just fine up until a point.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Why is it common sense for Ash's replacement to have a similar personality? There's no precedent for that within the show. In fact, any character they have replaced, they've replaced with someone with a different personality. May wasn't Misty 2.0, Dawn wasn't May 2.0, Cilan wasn't Brock 2.0, and so on.

Based on this, your mistrust isn't warranted. It's demonstrable in the show itself that they're capable of creating a diverse pool of characters and don't just seek to replicate traits from characters gone-by. Is it that much of a stretch to think this would apply to a hypothetical Ash replacement as well?

Mostly because Ash's personality lends itself very well as a main character to the kind of stories that pokémon wants to tell. Ash has a lot of passion, motivation, and drive to get plots going and to have him embark on whatever the main quest is that the games need marketing for. He is also enough of a goofy idiot to not make him overly competent and keep his adventures somewhat interesting and funny, and he has enough of a moral sense to portray the values the writers like to uphold and make him likeable and a decent enough role-model. Everybody else that isn't Ash is essentially a supporting character (or a less important main character, secondary main character, whatever you want to call them), and therefore a lot more malleable. But you need someone like Ash to drive the plot forward and to keep the core values intact.

Some people keep on hammering about how much Ash's character changes between regions, but the core of who he is as a character stays very consistent overall, it's just that the different series have different focuses bringing different parts of that character to the forefront.

 

[BTS_fan]

The only way to fix Ash would be for the writers to actually give a damn about writing him

I feel like they do care about how they write him, it's just that their definition of caring differs from what older fans want. I also noticed that it's mostly the older fans who get triggered by Ash as opposed to the younger fans who don't seem as whiny.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

Mostly because Ash's personality lends itself very well as a main character to the kind of stories that pokémon wants to tell. Ash has a lot of passion, motivation, and drive to get plots going and to have him embark on whatever the main quest is that the games need marketing for. He is also enough of a goofy idiot to not make him overly competent and keep his adventures somewhat interesting and funny, and he has enough of a moral sense to portray the values the writers like to uphold and make him likeable and a decent enough role-model. Everybody else that isn't Ash is essentially a supporting character (or a less important main character, secondary main character, whatever you want to call them), and therefore a lot more malleable. But you need someone like Ash to drive the plot forward and to keep the core values intact.

There are numerous way to demonstrate that a character is "passionate" and "motivated" without resorting to the hot-blooded doofus archetype. In fact, a character doesn't even need to be passionate to move a story forward; they need merely to have a motivation to act, whether that comes from within or from something external.

Pokemon wants to tell a story about whimsical adventure involving magical pets, with core themes of growth as a person and working together to achieve better results. Literally anyone could be the protagonist in that story.

 

[shoz999]

As much as I like the Pokemon Special manga, I'm not sure that I'd want to see an anime adaptation of that series. I feel like the series has been successful because it's in manga form, and an anime adaptation probably wouldn't end up being as good as the manga. I get that people dislike how Satoshi's been handled, but I honestly think I'd take him over someone like Red as a protagonist. No disrespect to Red, but it's harder for me to care about his development by comparison to Satoshi's since I view Satoshi as being so much more iconic than Red even though Red is arguably the better written character.

I'd very much want to see an anime adaptation of the Pokemon Adventures manga to see how it's handle, for better or worst. In an anime adaptation of any kind of manga, you should alway expect some things to be change out of creativity. For example, JoJo's Bizarre Adventures, there are two anime adaptations, the old one from the 90s and the new one from the 2010s. A person pointed it out in how each anime adapted the manga differently, a small but creative choice that adds to the atmosphere, the villain teleporting. In the old 90s version, it follows exactly how the manga works, where he just vanishes "POP" into nothingness but in the new version, when he teleports, it takes a much different turn from the manga where as soon as the light goes off, he disappears in a horror-like fashion. That's the kind of creative differences I want to see put into a Pokemon Adventures manga, for better or for worse.

 

[Leonhart]

I feel like they do care about how they write him, it's just that their definition of caring differs from what older fans want.

They care about him in the sense that they're willing to keep him around, although one could argue that they only keep him because he's become almost like a mascot for the anime at this point. They're more concerned about using him as a promotional tool rather than developing him as a character, though.

 

[SH65]

I'd very much want to see an anime adaptation of the Pokemon Adventures manga to see how it's handle, for better or worst. In an anime adaptation of any kind of manga, you should alway expect some things to be change out of creativity. For example, JoJo's Bizarre Adventures, there are two anime adaptations, the old one from the 90s and the new one from the 2010s. A person pointed it out in how each anime adapted the manga differently, a small but creative choice that adds to the atmosphere, the villain teleporting. In the old 90s version, it follows exactly how the manga works, where he just vanishes "POP" into nothingness but in the new version, when he teleports, it takes a much different turn from the manga where as soon as the light goes off, he disappears in a horror-like fashion. That's the kind of creative differences I want to see put into a Pokemon Adventures manga, for better or for worse.

The problem comes from where do you start?

 

[shoz999]

The problem comes from where do you start?

First off, I suppose you need guys to supervise the production, people who actually understand the material. Which is why I think a Pokemon Adventures anime production should start off by finding a good director. Not necessarily the production company but the director who has the vision. They are the guys who put many famous anime companies on the map afterall. There's also of course the writer of course. That's important as he's responsible for keeping the director's vision together.

 

[SH65]

First off, I suppose you need guys to supervise the production, people who actually understand the material. Which is why I think a Pokemon Adventures anime production should start off by finding a good director. Not necessarily the production company but the director who has the vision. They are the guys who put many famous anime companies on the map afterall. There's also of course the writer of course. That's important as he's responsible for keeping the director's vision together.

No I mean where in the Manga do you start.

 

[shoz999]

No I mean where in the Manga do you start.

Honestly, anywhere's fine except for remake and third version chapters which act more like sequels. Pokemon Adventures is like Pokemon's answer to the Marvel Cinematic Universe or JoJo's Bizarre Adventures. Actually would you believe me that out of all the manga that I've seen Pokemon Adventurs compared to, JoJo's Bizarre Adventures is the most common one lol? Anyways, an long-time Pokemon Adventures fan will be rewarded with tons of callbacks to past entries but practically every chapter is a brand new story from beginning to end that any new fan can get into. However, I'd say the very first Pokemon Adventures chapter, RGB (Gen 1) would be where it has to be adapted. This is because while a Pokemon Adventures anime can choose to adapt any of the other later chapters and not worry about chapters that came before, if you adapt the first one and continue from it there, you will be able to recreate that same MCU or JoJo-like experience that's rewarding to both long-time viewers who pay attention to the characters and world-building and also new fans who just got into it years later.

 

[Dream Lad]

I just meant someone who is obviously meant to be an Ash expy. So like, similar design maybe even a similar hat and motivation .

I think that's fine honestly. I'd rather they retire Ash's character (let him finally win a gym-qualification league) and start with somebody new. I know the writers aren't amazing, but there have been some more unique stuff in BW, XY, and SM compared to the Johto-DP era. They can be creative.

I think they're just being lazy and reusing Ash's design, all the while harming any semblance of a unique character he once was from OS to DP.

I feel like they do care about how they write him, it's just that their definition of caring differs from what older fans want. I also noticed that it's mostly the older fans who get triggered by Ash as opposed to the younger fans who don't seem as whiny.

Children may be not be whiny because they just want to see Pokemon and battles, and 90%+ of them will stop watching once they grow up a bit. Maybe with streaming and websites like YT things are different now since children can watch older seasons, but when I was 6-10, I mainly cared about the aforementioned things. Not Ash as much, but even then I was disappointed when Ash lost at Indigo Plateau and at the Johto League. Only when I became a teenager onward did I pay attention and start to care as much about Ash's character and growth.

 

[Bahmo]

I feel like they do care about how they write him, it's just that their definition of caring differs from what older fans want. I also noticed that it's mostly the older fans who get triggered by Ash as opposed to the younger fans who don't seem as whiny.

What is this hooey?! I have yet to see any adult fan of Pokemon get "triggered" by Ash, and last I checked, children are a lot more whiny than adults.

The reason children aren't objecting to Ash's portrayal as much is that they're new to this series and don't yet realize they're being enticed with an exciting end goal that the anime never ends up delivering on; at least not since the Orange League. Do children care about Ash being much more than just the standardized young Pokemon trainer who wants to win a lot of battles? Perhaps not. However, if that's all that they want,

1) It's pretty crappy of the anime never to give it to them, and to occasional weaken Ash and his team so they can keep not giving it to them. It is totally possible to let Ash win and keep this anime going, even with him at its center since he swaps out his old Pokemon anyway.
2) It could just as easily be someone else. Actually, that is part of why Ash's characterization can suck; he is the stand-in for game characters who on their own don't have much character. But they could get in, be the new Ash, while Ash could be a mentor.

Letting Ash win, letting the next game protagonist in, and letting Ash be his mentor, could solve most of the problems this show has without alienating its core demographic. Ash's fans get happy he's still there and that he's good at his hobby, fans of continuity get happy he's permanently developed, people who want the anime to represent the games more closely get happy their protagonist is in the show. This could also be played the other way; Ash could be added to the games as a mentor, since that doesn't require him to start a hypothetical team from zero.

What sucks about this anime is the writers don't seem to realize all of this. They're sitting on something better than they have utilized yet, and I've never seen good excuses for why they don't utilize it already.

 

[Emelie]

There are a lot of repetitive elements in the anime and not just when it comes to Ash/Satoshi. At least Ash/Satoshi changes sometimes (and gets an arc like the Chimchar/Greninja story if he's lucky) even if it makes him inconsistent.

I think the repetitive gags are the worst thing about the anime because it feels like an excuse for lazy writing so they can release an episode every week. The core idea is the same regardless if it's Team Rocket blasting off, Brock/Bonnie hitting on girls, the Alola gang pretending to be Power Rangers or Clemont/Cilan coming up with random ideas.

The gags just get a new coat of paint once in a while and then we are stuck with them for the rest of the series. Sometimes it almost feels like you have already watched the new episodes before. Ideally they would make less episodes and focus on quality instead. Ash's/Satoshi's development would probably benefit from that.

 

[Bahmo]

There are a lot of repetitive elements in the anime and not just when it comes to Ash/Satoshi. At least Ash/Satoshi changes sometimes (and gets an arc like the Chimchar/Greninja story if he's lucky) even if it makes him inconsistent.

I think the repetitive gags are the worst thing about the anime because it feels like an excuse for lazy writing so they can release an episode every week. The core idea is the same regardless if it's Team Rocket blasting off, Brock/Bonnie hitting on girls, the Alola gang pretending to be Power Rangers or Clemont/Cilan coming up with random ideas.

The gags just get a new coat of paint once in a while and then we are stuck with them for the rest of the series. Sometimes it almost feels like you have already watched the new episodes before. Ideally they would make less episodes and focus on quality instead. Ash's/Satoshi's development would probably benefit from that.

I agree. But I've read it argued that children enjoy repetitive gags. Then again, even that probably depends on children finding a joke funny the first time, so they're probably just assuming that they do, and if they're wrong, well, I stand by my belief that this anime survives because game royalties are sustaining it, not vice-versa.

Beyond that, though, some of what they choose for extended gags, and what people they choose to feature in them, started to feel more and more cruel to me the longer they ran. The bit about Brock being horny is preeminent; I grew to hate how he was stuck in a go-nowhere loop because aside from that flaw, he was a really good guy. I feel Brock deserved to meet the right girl and end up with her, since he did have a lot to offer a partner.

As for the Team Rocket trio, I truly feel they've outlived their purpose. I wish Ash wouldn't keep usurping the role of the game protagonists, but somebody has to play that role in an anime that is just a commercial for games. Yet Team Rocket is a deadweight on the plot; too incompetent to be threatening villains but somehow too resilient to stay down when defeated, so they just kill time. Nothing about the actual purpose of the anime requires them to be in it.

 

[Leonhart]

Ideally they would make less episodes and focus on quality instead. Ash's/Satoshi's development would probably benefit from that.

I think that the anime as a whole would benefit from having shorter sagas and becoming more like a seasonal series rather than continuing to be a long-term series that gets new episodes practically every week. The formula that we currently have feels extremely tired by this point, so I wouldn't mind a change like that if it means that the writers would have more time to write Satoshi's story better.

 

[Emelie]

Beyond that, though, some of what they choose for extended gags, and what people they choose to feature in them, started to feel more and more cruel to me the longer they ran. The bit about Brock being horny is preeminent; I grew to hate how he was stuck in a go-nowhere loop because aside from that flaw, he was a really good guy. I feel Brock deserved to meet the right girl and end up with her, since he did have a lot to offer a partner.

As for the Team Rocket trio, I truly feel they've outlived their purpose.

I read an interesting analysis once that the reason Brock keeps going after older girls is because he wanted somebody else to take care of him for a change since his mother was absent (but not dead unlike what 4kids tried to convince us LOL) and he had to take too much responsibility at home and mabye in the traveling group too.

Kind of a shame to portray this as a gag since it would have been great if the anime tried to tackle this issue. It's a little ironic that Misty, Max and sometimes Ash berate Brock since they are actually part of the problem since he is pretty much forced to care for most of their needs. Mabye he wouldn't have this weird oedipus complex anymore if the others also helped out with the chores which would lead to him having to take less responsibility?

As for Team Rocket, I like them as characters and their backstories are great (Musashi's especially even if it's the most obscure one) but they have become static characters. It's a shame the BW plot had to get cut off after the earthquake. They even introduced a new character but he never showed up again? Could have brought something new to the table and changed the tired old formula.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

I read an interesting analysis once that the reason Brock keeps going after older girls is because he wanted somebody else to take care of him for a change since his mother was absent (but not dead unlike what 4kids tried to convince us LOL) and he had to take too much responsibility at home and mabye in the traveling group too.

Kind of a shame to portray this as a gag since it would have been great if the anime tried to tackle this issue. It's a little ironic that Misty, Max and sometimes Ash berate Brock since they are actually part of the problem since he is pretty much forced to care for most of their needs. Maybe he wouldn't have this weird oedipus complex anymore if the other also helped out with the chores which would lead to him having to take less responsibility?

As for Team Rocket, I like them as characters and their backstories are great (Musashi's especially, even if it's the most obscure one) but they have become static characters. It's a shame the BW plot had to get cut off after the earthquake. They even introduced a new character but he never showed up again? Could have brought something new to the table and changed the tired old formula.

Poor 4Kids. The one time they make someone dead instead of censoring it, they show up later.

BW would have done well as a send-off for the organization, but not for TRio.