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Ash's/Satoshi's Character Needs a Major Overhaul and More Consistency

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
Poor 4Kids. The one time they make someone dead instead of censoring it, they show up later.

BW would have done well as a send-off for the organization, but not for TRio.
They easily rectified that by said Takshi's father just lie or spiritual true as she was cheat on him as novel
 

TheWanderingMist

Kanae, Keeper of the Gates Emblazoned
They easily rectified that by said Takeshi lied or spiritually true as she was cheat on him as novel
Yeah, I know the original was that she also abandoned them. I'm just saying it was the one time they chose to overcompensate that backfired.
 

BTS_fan

Banned
As for Team Rocket, I like them as characters and their backstories are great (Musashi's especially even if it's the most obscure one) but they have become static characters. It's a shame the BW plot had to get cut off after the earthquake. They even introduced a new character but he never showed up again? Could have brought something new to the table and changed the tired old formula.
I feel like TRio is worse than Ash in some ways because even though Ash is stuck in an endless cycle, at least he gives off the illusion of progress whereas TRio doesn't. They fail at everything and they only take credit for things that they didn't even do like taking down Team Galactic.
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
I feel like TRio is worse than Ash in some ways because even though Ash is stuck in an endless cycle, at least he gives off the illusion of progress whereas TRio doesn't. They fail at everything and they only take credit for things that they didn't even do like taking down Team Galactic.
The only times they're successful is when they're not stalking a ten-year old kid and his pet rat that is no different than the literal millions like it in the world
 

Sham

redeemed hero and true friend
I feel like TRio is worse than Ash in some ways because even though Ash is stuck in an endless cycle, at least he gives off the illusion of progress whereas TRio doesn't. They fail at everything and they only take credit for things that they didn't even do like taking down Team Galactic.
Shhhh TRio is not suppose to get an actual goal progress just have Giovanni THINK they have. As long as the boss is happy who cares right?
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The irony is that Trio did actually for a while actually manage some status quo by actually progressing in their goal, climbing the ladder in their group and actually getting Giovanni's praise. While their reverence has naturally dwindled since then, they do still seem to be on relatively good terms with him, instead having Matori as a higher force to disapprove of them.

The bigger problem with TR is that they often feel like irrelevant entities to the rest of the cast. Compared to Ash who can often bounce off of the new characters and help with their character development, thus keeping him relevant as a foil, TR always just play the role of bad guys, low tier bad guys that almost always butt into more important affairs and get beaten with no real effort. Their only big contribution is usually accidentally sparking off DEM power boosts, otherwise everyone just kinda stonewalls them as characters and never really hits off a dynamic with them and even their battles fail to play off as true accomplishments in spite of the anime so often using them as jobbers for the less focused companions. Even BW TR, despite maybe forcing more effortful battle displays out of the twerps, didn't often do a lot of distinctive character dynamics with them (besides odd moments like the Meowth arc) if anything it just cemented them in a 'just another bad guy' role against them that XY and SM exacerbated.

This is what got to Brock as well, he didn't really change his shtick or gain new chemistries as regions changed, thus ended up a third wheel that didn't contribute to the story. While with Ash they at least force themselves to make him part of the main dynamic among the other characters, other mainstays like Brock and TR are generally kept out of the way besides as generic padding when they can't be bothered giving the new characters anything noteworthy to do.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
Moonlight Starlight said:
That's what I like about BW did for the trio not stalking Ash and Pikachu. I really like to see the trio do more missions like in BW not bothering Ash and his companions in every episode plot.
I did like that they were at least doing small things off-screen that were slowly building up to something bigger. Speaking of the Rocket-dan and how they influence Satoshi though, I've always been peeved that Satoshi's encounter with Sakaki during Operation Tempest didn't lead anywhere. I would've thought that Satoshi finally meeting the leader of the trio that had stalked him through several regions would've at least led to some interesting interactions between him and Sakaki.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I did like that they were at least doing small things off-screen that were slowly building up to something bigger. Speaking of the Rocket-dan and how they influence Satoshi though, I've always been peeved that Satoshi's encounter with Sakaki during Operation Tempest didn't lead anywhere. I would've thought that Satoshi finally meeting the leader of the trio that had stalked him through several regions would've at least led to some interesting interactions between him and Sakaki.
That's kind of the thing, TR are such an unmemorable part of Ash's life now in spite of constantly harassing them. In OS there was believable neuroses from the twerps about how often TR bugged them but after that they just seemed positioned into the plot in a way any bad guy could take and the twerps' generic stock hero interactions matched that. What difference is there in chemistry between Team Rocket and Team Skull against the twerps now? Why would Ash care anymore about meeting Giovanni than Guzma, especially since even Guzma has personal ties to one of his allies?

This is how Ash still feels more key to the show's life than TR since Ash can still find a distinct dynamic among the new cast and gain chemistries and catalyst roles that still constitute as helping with character development for the new characters instead of interrupting it. The best they can do with TR right now is give them a somewhat fun story that is out of the way of the twerps' stories, they are just incompatible entities right now. Ash is not 'just another friend' to most of the protagonists in the same level that TR is 'just another bad guy'.
 

Sham

redeemed hero and true friend
I’m glad Team Rocket is not interacting with Ash that much and doing their own thing. The Ula Ula episode was one of their best episodes and Ash was only there for one minute. The constant going after Pikachu got lame after DP and quite frankly TR being independent of Ash is one of Alola’s strong points.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I’m glad Team Rocket is not interacting with Ash that much and doing their own thing. The Ula Ula episode was one of their best episodes and Ash was only there for one minute. The constant going after Pikachu got lame after DP and quite frankly TR being independent of Ash is one of Alola’s strong points.
I miss when they had loads of non-hero/villain interactions though. SM's only done a light handful right now such as the Pokebase episode and the Oranguru bar episode with Meowth. You'd think with how chill and comedic this series was it'd be the ideal series for it but they rarely mesh at all.
 

R0shan

Arcaknight
A lot of intriguing discussion in this thread. I wonder if it boils down to: this is a children's show where Ash and Pikachu are the main characters and the rest is overthinking.

Throughout my entire viewership of the series I have noticed that Ash's character has vastly varied through many iterations in the series and I feel his overall character is stuck in an inconsistent limbo. From his initial personality in the Original Series (Johto - Kanto) where he is slightly more brash and hot-headed all the way to his current personality in Sun & Moon being almost an entirely different character.

When it came to the original 4 series of the anime (Kanto, Johto, Hoen and Sinnoh) there was an actual logical growth in Ash's character for the most part, turning from an inexperienced bratty novice, to a well versed, seasoned, and mature trainer. There was an actual hidden character arc for Ash during that era, as each of those series actually linked and melded with one another. However as soon as we reached the Black & White/Best Wishes series Ash's previous growth got completely thrown out the window with no actual reason behind it, "resetting" him to a seemingly novice and slightly more immature trainer. What also is an issue with Ash's character is the depiction of ageing, which is a major issues with his character because it shows a lack of the passage of time, with the BW series only exemplifying it stating he is 10 years of age even though he has travelled 4 regions in a span you would only assume is 4 years+.

Ash seemingly came back to form during the XY series being a more confident and experienced trainer similar to his DP counterpart, having a more charismatic and seemingly mature air about him. However similar to the manner of BW, Ash's overall character has changed yet again when the series transitioned to the Sun & Moon series, with Ash appearing more childish than ever. I feel the writers of the series are stuck in a rut with his character, causing him to have these inconsistencies since DP, as I feel that was the pinnacle of his character.

In conclusion I feel Ash's overall character arc is stuck in what I describe is "an inconsistent limbo" and I can only hope the writers can actually find a way in which they can effectively further "develop" Ash as a character and settle for a consistent "personality" instead of changing it each season. We can only hope in Sword and Shield, and I am very curious how they will handle his character for that series.

What are your thoughts?
Other than Best Wishes, hasn't Ash been consistent? Excluding the Vertress Conference, in all of the other league conferences, he has gotten better results every time, and he has other achievements such as winning the Orange League, completing the Battle Frontier, and a bunch of minor victories. I'm reading the speculations in the Spoilers subforum, and seems to be a consensus that Ash is making at least the semifinals of the Manalo Conference, if not outright winning the whole tournament. I don't believe Sun & Moon Ash is an entirely different character either. Sun & Moon is more of a comedy, ergo those aspects will be magnified. Ash lives in the comfiest location in the Pokemon world and has a carefree life with his friends in and out of school. That is probably why his Alolan team is less developed than his other regional teams. I don't believe he is any worse at battling or more stupid or immature. What is more inconsistent to me is the style of the show. The early years of the show were more...out there. Then the show fixed on a trademark style from Johto to Sinnoh. I didn't watch much of Unova, ergo I can't speak much about it, but Kalos felt more of the Johto to Sinnoh style. If Sword and Shield's style is akin to Johto to Sinnoh + Kalos, then I believe you would see that character arc continuation again, though I personally don't think it ever went away.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
R0shan said:
If Sword and Shield's style is akin to Johto to Sinnoh + Kalos, then I believe you would see that character arc continuation again, though I personally don't think it ever went away.
I feel like the criticisms about his character arc stalling in certain sagas are often exaggerated though, because even during sagas where he was a competent battler, his character development was rare and far in-between. He only changes when the plot demands it, and only for a short while until the writers need to reset him for their own convenience. Most people cite Best Wishes as the biggest example of this, but Satoshi's been inconsistent in every saga at one point or another.
 

R0shan

Arcaknight
I feel like the criticisms about his character arc stalling in certain sagas are often exaggerated though, because even during sagas where he was a competent battler, his character development was rare and far in-between. He only changes when the plot demands it, and only for a short while until the writers need to reset him for their own convenience. Most people cite Best Wishes as the biggest example of this, but Satoshi's been inconsistent in every saga at one point or another.
Maybe an accurate metaphor for Ash's character development is a bumpy stairway (see crude drawing below). In each saga, he stays in one step that has a broad personality/trainer skill, and the bumps are the plot-demanded minor character developments.

 

AznKei

Beware of the び jacks in DDR! X_X
If he hasn't aged a month, they're never going to do anything logically beneficial for him either.

With age comes experience, after all.
I don't think they have to mention him his age as proof of his experience. They just need a consistent continuity in which they failed in the recent series.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
AznKei said:
I don't think they have to mention him his age as proof of his experience. They just need a consistent continuity in which they failed in the recent series.
I don't think they really need to mention his age either, and part of me wishes that they had never mentioned that he was ten years old at the beginning of Best Wishes since it just annoyed fans. Keeping Satoshi's age a mystery would've been the better option in my view.
 
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