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Ash's strongest rival

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by masterori, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. AdvancedGenGenesect

    AdvancedGenGenesect Well-Known Member

    Here's the thing, Paul was doing something different, but compared to Gary his purpose was minimal.

    Gary first acted as the first rival for ash, he was someone for Ash to compete with and was a reason for ash to improve. Later in Johto he started bonding with ash, they got to know each other more and he became less of a Jerk, serving both as a friend and a rival. Later when he battled ash in pallet town he showed ash that he wasn't perfect, and ultimately motivated him to go to Sinnoh. Ultimately he was a very important and balanced character, and for his time he was completely original like Paul.

    Paul on the other hand also was a big rival for ash, but because he bet ash every single time and then lost, it basically did nothing to Ash as a character or the whole scheme of things. Paul also stayed the same for the most part and only somehow changed right at the end, which was a very unsatisfactory ending. Like you said, the only thing that was learned from the end was that the plot was absolute bs but also predictable. If they wanted to end the plot the way they did then ash also should've been more of a challenger for Paul, It could've started out with Paul winning, but then ash would've started gaining momentum so that paul would take him more seriously.

    Overall I'd just say they handled him poorly, but I wouldn't say that he's the greatest.
     
  2. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    I found nothing wrong with Paul's character at all,I was fine with him staying the way he was up until the end because it pretty much signified that he already developed himself in previous regions.And with him beating Ash most of the time there's definitely not going to be any changes at all from Paul's character because Ash couldn't prove him wrong.

    And about Paul beating Ash,you mean to tell me that Ash not in the slightest was affected after his losses to Paul?In his third battle with Paul (Different Strokes For Different Blokes)
    Ash lost to Paul in a 1 on 1 match and felt salty,especially after Paul insulted him and then walked away.

    A few times he said he'll never beat me again but never kept that promise.In their first full battle Paul mopped the floor with Ash to the point of him feeling depressed the next episode and literally all of his pokemon were badly injured after that battle.

    Ash barley trained in OS,started training more in AG,and then a whole lot more in DP to the point of having his pokemon attack him and his other pokemon in training,that tells you that Paul influenced Ash a lot to get stronger.

    Gary,Trip,Sawyer,or Alain never had that same effect on Ash,Paul challenged Ash as a battler and as a trainer in such high intensity,he really set the bar for all rivals in the show to the point where there may not ever be another rival to reach or surpass that level.
     
  3. AdvancedGenGenesect

    AdvancedGenGenesect Well-Known Member

    The main problem here is the lack of a proper dynamic here. Sure ash was salty when he lost, but when a loss happens a character is supposed to improve from it.
    There was no improvement for ash, and if you think about it it's unrealistic for him to never win. Basically the whole thing was pointless because of this. A good rival isn't, just supposed to be strong, but also someone who make the main character improve in some way which ash didn't at all.

    And pauls character wasn't perfect at all. His main problem is that his arrogance and lack of underestimating others is what made him seem like a brilliant. He respects Cynthia and the other people who were exeptional trainers, but take what ash says as false, even though the people he "respects" do the same thing. He was too stubborn to see the potential in others and only looks up to the trainers that have big titles.
     
  4. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member





     
  5. Captain Jigglypuff

    Captain Jigglypuff Leader of Jigglypuff Army Staff Member Moderator

    The strongest rivals Ash has ever had Are Paul and Gary. Gary was strong mainly because he was always one step ahead of Ash for the first two regions and the Silver League battle was intense for the two of them. Paul is slightly stronger due to his beliefs but he always battled fairly and didn’t win by some cheap occurrence like Cameron’s Riolu suddenly evolving and gaining Super Saiyan levels of strength for no real reason at all.
     
  6. Leonhart

    Leonhart Imagineer

    Shinji is arguably Satoshi's strongest rival in terms of his team as a whole. I know that Alain's Mega Lizardon X proved to be superior to Satoshi's Gekkouga, yet the rest of Alain's team seemed standard to me.
     
  7. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    The answer is obviously Tobias...jk he wasn't really a rival.
    In terms of outright strongest rival I'd say Alain just because his team is solid while his Ace is top tier amongst regular non-Champ and E4 trainers.
    However in terms of best rivalry I'd give it to Paul. He was the one who challenged Ash's sense of what a good trainer is the most, their battles were all good and the story arc with Chimchar still remains one of the best the anime has ever made.
     
  8. AznKei

    AznKei Badass girls saving their boyfriends. XD

    Alain is the most powerful for sure, he can beat 10 consecutive Mega Evolution on his own trainers including Malva, an elite 4 member, but he's a friendly rival for Ash, reliving the fun of Pokemon battling with him.
    Paul has the most intense/heated rivalry with Ash, it was a war between their morals/codes/ethics.
    Sawyer is the one who we can see put alot of dedication to become stronger though, so I like him as a rival.
     
    345ash-greninja and Genaller like this.
  9. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Honestly even without ME Alain can beat Paul. What team do you consider Paul’s best? For me it’s TUFEND and this is how they’d fare against Alain:

    Torterra vs Tyranitar -> Torterra (recalled)
    Drapiom vs Weavile -> Drapiom (recalled)
    (Guts) Ursaring vs Bisharp -> Draw
    Froslass vs Unfezzant -> Froslass
    Froslass vs Metagross -> Metagross
    Torterra vs Metagross -> Metagross
    Ninjask vs Metagross -> Metagross
    Electivire vs Metagross -> Electivire
    Electivire vs Charizard -> Charizard
    Drapiom vs Charizard -> Charizard

    Alain wins mid 6-5

    People underestimate Alain’s psuedos especially his Metagross because they lost to Pikachu without factoring in that said Pikachu went “peak” mode and was battling at his highest lvl till then which can be justified both by scaling from Alain’s Base Charizard (who at a bare minimum was on the upper end of the E4 Base Ace spectrum (a.k.a Flint’s Infernape caliber) yet in a weakened state Peakachu was able to make him kneel indicating that Peakachu could’ve at least fought evenly with it if he had been at full health) and by the narrative since if there were ever a time for Pikachu to go all-out and battle with full cumulative experience, it would be a league conference final (a.k.a the most important battle in Ash’s trainer career till then). Metagross gets credit for pushing Peakachu to a tough match. Tyranitar had multiple even clashes with Peakachu and needed ingenuity to be beaten as easily as it had been with the battle field dousing that simultaneously got rid of its defensive advantage from the sandstorm and left it very vulnerable to electric attacks. The Pokémon in this battle relatively scale like this:

    - Z-
    Base Charizard

    - S
    Motordrive Electivire, Metagross

    - S-
    Base Electivire, Torterra (borderline)

    - A
    Drapiom

    - A-
    Bisharp, Guts Ursaring, Tyranitar (borderline)

    - B+
    Base Ursaring, Froslass, Ninjask, Weavile (borderline)

    - B-
    Unfezzant

    Note: “borderline” means that the Pokemon could possibly be rated 1 sub letter grade lower than where I’m placing it.

    ——————————————-

    With all of that in mind I will say that Paul is undoubtedly Ash’s most skilled rival and in particular his performance against Ash at the Sinnoh League was the best on-screen performance in the entire anime in terms of pure trainer skill output :).
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  10. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Apparently Ninjask is more powerful than Magmortar all of a sudden.

    Honestly how strong do you really think his Charizard is without the keystone?How much stronger is it compared to Ash's Charizard?

    Imo I don't see Alain coming out on top if Paul's using his best team

    Combining Paul's genius intellect in pokemon battles and his well trained team of tanks/powerhouses w/ abilities makes for quite the challenge for any normal trainer which far exceeds anything Tyson or Virgil had to offer at the Hoenn and Unova leagues.

    • Torterra (Powerhouse/Tank)
    • Electivire (Powerhouse/Tank)
    • Drapion (Powerhouse/Tank)
    • Ursaring (Powerhouse/Tank)
    • Magmortar (Powerhouse/Tank)
    • Honchkrow (Powerhouse/Tank)
     
  11. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Ninjask was was kicking the sh*t out of Gliscor who later went on to deal the bulk of the damage against Paul’s Drapion and even after that survive a battlefield Thunder from Electivire. Ninjask needed a game changing move in underground Flare Blitz to cripple its speed and even after that Infernape (definitely in Ash’s top 5 in terms of speed) still needed to concentrate in order to land a hit with Mach Punch.

    Alain’s Charizard as of the Kalos League is a bit stronger than where Ash’s Charizard was in end of BW. Both would be in the E4 Base Ace spectrum with Alain’s Charizard being on the upper end of it.

    Okay and I do IMAO.

    Yeah Paul is far above Tyson or Virgil.
    Fixed it :).
     
  12. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Due to it's speed
    Alain's Charizard is stronger than Paul's Torterra but not by a whole lot and the rest of his team is inferior to Paul's best team and Alain is an inferior battler to Paul so Alain would lose in this scenario.
    Ursaring is a powerhouse even without guts

    Magmortar isn't a tank because......oh wait let me guess because it lacks on screen feats.Yeah Ninjask and Froslass are bigger tanks than Magmortar.

    Honchkrow was on it's way to KOing Staravia up until it evolved and of course in this situation the writers aren't going to have Staraptor faint after it just evolved.I'd like to know in what way is Staraptor better trained and a bigger powerhouse than Honchkrow.
     
  13. Kage-Pikachu

    Kage-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Ash's most powerful rival, Misty! She absolutely crushed him in battle during the Whirl Islands! lol, no I'd say perhaps Alain or Tobias (though I dislike counting league only rivals as well rivals...). Paul was a total mirror of Ash, he actively switched his Pokemon and battled using smart in game mechanics (like making use of Abilities and Status moves and only using Pokemon with type advantages (with some exceptions like Infernape vs Aggron) but I wouldn't say he was the most powerful. He was still a greta rival though
     
  14. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Which is a major component of a Pokémon’s battle viability which is what I’m actually rating a Pokémon on.
    Alain’s Charizard decisively stronger than Motordrive Electivire and substantially stronger than Torterra. Also Metagross due to its performance against KL finals Peakachu is stronger than any of Paul’s Pokémon except maybe Motordrive Electivire. Alain’s Charizard is pretty much Flint’s Infernape lvl as far as I’m concerned; how does Flint’s Infernape do against Paul for you?

    Ursaring (both with and without Guts) has lost to Chimchar. Ursaring also probably would’ve lost to Barry’s Hitmonlee if not for Guts.
    No, but they do have better overall battle viability.
    Why not? Grotle and Monferno were allowed to faint after they just evolved, so what makes Staraptor so special? Fact: Honchkrow landed several hits on Staravia/Staraptor yet could not KO it. Fact: Staraptor was able to deal Ursaring significant damage with its attacks. Sure even I think Honchkrow was the better Pokémon, but at the same time it’s not all that much better than Staraptor.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  15. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    I rate on power scaling,which is what I do in other anime like Dragon Ball.
    Bullsh*t......
    Not without the keystone it's not

    Wow the first time it defeated Ursaring was due to Hax Blaze,the second time it finished off Ursaring after it took out half of Ash's team.

    Viability only means working successfully
     
  16. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    The difference is that in DB speed, power and durability vary proportionately, so if X > Y in power then Xshould be better than Y in speed and durability as well (most of the time). Obviously that’s not the case with Pokémon.

    With a key-Stone it’s the strongest trainer Pokémon in existence excluding Champion Mega Aces. Frankly even saying it’s Flint’s Infernape lvl is me low balling Alain’s Base Zard by ironically assigning it a higher ME boost than E4/Champion Pokémon. I’ll ask again; how does Paul fare against Flint’s Infernape?


    Didn’t it take a Stone Edge from the mighty Torterra before owning Guts Ursaring and then went on to have a grueling fight with Electobuzz? Just saying.

    Viability is a combination of every factor that contributes to a Pokémon’s battle proficiency e.g. power, speed, durability, evasion, precision, stealth, stamina, dexterity, willpower etc...
     
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  17. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    This is ridiculous,when we're talking about just stats,power,speed,durability etc. Ninjask and Froslass are interior,team viability isn't changing that fact.
    Paul isn't beating Flint 1 on 1 and more than likely in a 6 on 1 situation as well,Flint's Infernape is on a whole different level from Alain's Base Charizard.

    You're seriously using words like precision,stealth,dexterity to prove Froslass and Ninjask are stronger?

    Precision means being exact or accurate

    Stealth means being cautious with your movements like being smooth,quiet,and sneaky without being heard or seen.

    Dexterity means being skilled at performing tasks with your hands.

    This doesn't make Ninjask or Froslass stronger than Magmortar at all,you're being too much of a try hard by busting out these pointless fancy words to sound more intelligent,it's all fluff man.
     
  18. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Ninjask is far superior in speed. Froslass is far superior in evasion. I’ve already argued why

    Really because I think Electivire + Torterra could possibly force a draw or if not then Drapion should be enough to finish it off. All of Paul’s other Pokémon would be fodder for Flint’s Infernape and also for Alain’s Charizard. Unless you think that ME grants Alain’s Charizard a much higher boost than it does E4 Ace Pokémon, you’re severely underestimating his Base Zard.

    Those words aren’t for Ninjask or Froslass, but more in general when assessing Pokémon battle proficiency.

    A good example would be Ash’s Sceptile.

    A good example would be Ash’s Pikachu or Greninja.

    A good example would be Flint’s Infernape.

    Ninjask is better than Magmortar primarily thanks to its speed whereas Froslass is better primarily thanks to her evasion abilities.
     
  19. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Barry's Hitmonlee......

    Why are you dragging elite four members into this?Everyone including myself know Paul isn't beating them at his current level.

    It's all fluff
    I would have said Squirtle but okay sure but having good accuracy doesn't make you stronger it just makes you more skilled,this applies in real life as well.You can have a good 3 point shot in basketball but that doesn't make you a stronger basketball player.
    They show good speed and agility but what Froslass does is float in the air and disappear when it's ability activates.
    Blocking and deflecting attacks...... which fits in the power and durability category.
    So apparently speed is more important than power and durability,Magmortar may not be as fast as Ninjask but can still move around.Barry maxed out Hitmonlee's speed but it takes more than just speed.
     
  20. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Not sure why you’re bringing it up though Ursaring needed Guts to beat it and I have no problem accepting Guts Ursaring as a powerhouse.


    That’s the caliber of opponent Alain’s Charizard scales to.


    Yup Squirtle is also a great example :). Also Honchkrow in a way since Super Luck means more crits a.k.a more high precision attacks. But it does make you more viable a.k.a it increases your chances of winning the game. That’s far more important than simply who’s in the best physical shape (note that physical fitness does count in viability but it’s not the only component) .

    Basically phazing which is a type of evasion.

    Deflecting sort of goes into dexterity. A more clear example would be Maylene’s and Korrina’s Lucario with Bone Rush. Blocking or no-selling goes in durability and countering goes in power.

    It varies from Pokémon to Pokémon. Hitmonlee isn’t as fast as Ninjask and Ursaring needed Guts to beat it. My primary arguments for Ninjask are based on scaling from Gliscor and Infernape. You’re saying that it’s not as durable or powerful as Magmortar which is probably true though that doesn’t necessarily make Magmortar the overall better Pokémon and by feats/scaling I don’t think any of Magmortar’s performances were better than Ninjask’s; that’s all there is to it. I reiterate again: Ninjask was owning the same Pokémon that went on to deal the majority of the damage on Drapion and even after that survived a battlefield Thunder from Electivire (all of this was while said Pokémon was Poisoned). It took a game changing move from the opponent’s Ace Pokémon to cripple Ninjask’s speed and even while weakened Ninjask was able to deal non-trivial damage on said Ace Pokémon with an nve move in Giga Drain, and said Ace Pokémon had to concentrate to land the finishing hit on Ninjask despite its speed being crippled. What perfromance of Magmortar’s based on scaling/feats is better than what I just described?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018

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