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Ash's strongest rival

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by masterori, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    He was just a developed dream crusher, that's it, simple. The rivalry was just an excuse to develop him as the dream crusher anyway. He wasn't even supposed to compete in League anyway, wasn't even planning to do it ever, had no badges until XY&Z23, and suddenly out-of-the-blue got 8 badges within 8 episodes. Which just looked pretty much ridiculous hands down.

    I feel that Alain should have never battled Ash prior to the League since he was always meant to be the dream crusher. There was no need to have him battle Ash multiple times before the League to develop him, because he was already a well developed character in the ME specials and his strength was well established there. He had also other involvements like in the Team Flare arc, his involvement with Team Flare was also one of the major plot points in the anime. Since he was already a well established and well developed character in the ME specials and had other involvements in the anime like in the Team Flare arc, I feel he should have never battled Ash prior to the League with the rivalry excuse. His appearences in the main anime, a.k.a. XY(Z), should have been limited to the Team Flare stuff like capturing Z2 and an episode prior to the League where he and Ash meet each other, but don't battle. Ash tells him about the League in which he seems interested and he eventually ends up entering the League. And in the League Alain plays the role of the dream crusher, beating Ash. After that he plays his role in the Team Flare climax arc as it was shown. This is how IMO Alain as a dream crusher + his overall role in XY(Z) should've been handled.

    I liked Alain as a character in the ME specials, and in his role in the Team Flare arc as well, but as rival/dream crusher of Ash, I could never like him. His rivalry with Ash used as a excuse to develop him as a dream crusher, like having him battle Ash 2 times before the League was pointless, it ended with a ridiculous result in the end: that Ash never ended up beating him despite battling him multiple times, which is ridiculous. What is the point of a rivalry if one rival never surpassed another rival in the rivalry even once? Alain should have battled Ash only once, that's in the League, where he'd defeat Ash, playing the role of the dream crusher. He had other important involvements in the anime like the Team Flare arc, and as a character was well-developed in the ME specials. Having him battle Ash multiple times with a rivalry excuse to develop him, with the grand result of Ash beating him 0 times, was absolutely pointless.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  2. Akkipeddi

    Akkipeddi The Great Seal

    Well tbh, while it is unfortunate that Ash has a 0-3 record against Alain, I wouldn't say that the first two battles before the league were unneeded. Seeing Greninja, and having those two battles against Ash Greninja sparked his interest in the first place to eventually enter the league. We know that he wasn't interested in the actual league, but entered just to have a high stakes battle with Ash and Greninja again. Ash simply telling Alain about the league, and then him being interested in the league without them battling even once prior to the league would've just felt odd. Besides, those two battles were fairly important for Ash and Greninja themselves, since we saw more about what the synchronization was all about through Clemont's machine, and the second battle loss against Alain, along with the loss against Sawyer, Diantha (technically not a loss, but still Ash did end up fainting), and Wulfric were all important in mastering the Ash Greninja form.
  3. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    In that case I feel Ash and Greninja should have at best have one battle with Alain and his Charizard like the one in XY&Z23, where the battle ends up unfinished and no-one looses. Overall, my point is that, since Alain is meant to be the dream crusher, it's better not to set up a technical rivalry between Ash and him, because then the grand result of the rivalry would inevitably end up like: Ash had a rivalry with Alain, battled him multiple times, lost to him multiple times, and never beat him once, which leaves a pretty bad taste. To trigger Alain's interest in the League, him seeing and battling Greninja once before the League is pretty much enough. So have Ash and Alain battle once before the League where the battle is unfinished and with no result, like the one in XY&Z23, so that it triggers Alain's motivation to enter the League. Greninja's loss to Charizard in XY&Z13 and Noivern's loss to Metang, are 2 battles, which IMO should have never happened.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  4. Akkipeddi

    Akkipeddi The Great Seal

    Personally what I feel should've ideally happened is that between the time Ash Greninja was mastered and before the league had begun, Ash and Alain should've had one last battle, where Ash Greninja would've beaten MCX. Seeing that, Alain is shocked, and feels that he needs to get even stronger to protect those around him, so he decides last minute to collect the badges and enter the league, where the ending is still the same. That imo, would've been ideal since it would've meant Ash would've beaten him once, and as a result, Alain would've seen the power of mastered Ash Greninja, and had even greater motivation to battle it once more in a high stakes clash in the league.
  5. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    That would've pretty much OK in my view. :) Rivalries are only that meaningful when one rival gets to surpass another rival in the rivalry at least once.
  6. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    First of all we know for a fact that there’s a time skip between XYZ 29 and 30 (likely a few weeks to a month at least) since it’s geographically impossible to get from Snowbelle to North of Lumiose so quickly. 2nd of all Alain can compete with the E4, so it actually makes perfect sense that he’d be able to stomp GYM leaders (and even most other league trainers) in quick succession since that’s exactly what would happen if an E4 bothered participating in a league conference.

    Honestly Alain is leagues ahead of the others as a “dream crusher” since he was properly built up as a threat in the ME specials. I actually enjoyed him his rivalry of mutual respect and admiration with Ash since making someone as strong as Alain feel that way about you makes you look all the more amazing in return. Also their non-league battles (especially the ones in XYZ 23) were really good, so I’m not complaining. Also the whole “rival who wins and keeps winning against the MC without defeat” has been done in this series before; her name is Zoey! Alain is similar in that he also never lost to Ash though he’s even more overpowered since he seldom lost in general.
  7. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "Am I supposed to laugh?"

    I wouldn't really use a dubious passage of time as a valid reason for anything in this anime, really. That only makes many other stuff strange, such as why haven't anybody in the main group evolved yet.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  8. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    The fact is that there’s nothing contradictiory about Alain getting 8 badges between XYZ 23 and 30; he more than has the credibility to quickly obtain 8 gym badges whether you like it or not. What do you mean by “nobody evolved”? If you’re talking about age then please don’t get me started on that whole can of worms.
    blizzardblaze likes this.
  9. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Sure, sure.

    if he's saying evolved he's referring to the pokemon. it seems like his point is why hasn't anyone's pokemon evolved during the timeskip. it's not a great point.
    Genaller and blizzardblaze like this.
  10. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Yeah that is silly. We factually know that a few months passed between XYZ 43 and 44 yet no Pokémon evolved in that timeframe either.
    blizzardblaze and LilligantLewis like this.
  11. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    Well, Alain's Metang and Sawyer's Doublade did evolve into Metagross amd Aegislash respectively during that time period BTW. We saw Alain's Metang in XY&Z23, the last time Alain met Ash prior to the League, and at the League, we saw that it was a fully evolved Metagross. In XY&Z26, we saw Sawyer's Doublade, and at the League, it was a fully evolved Aegislash. So yeah, I think that there was a pretty good time skip before the League.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Genaller and blizzardblaze like this.
  12. Ignition

    Ignition Obliterated a god with the power of friendship

    While I do agree with your stance, Doublade only requires a Dusk Stone to evolve. It wouldn't take that much time to evolve it
    345ash-greninja likes this.
  13. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    Well Sawyer still has to obtain the Dusk stone first, I'd assume he didn't have one in XY&Z26 since Doublade didn't fully evolve upto that point.
    Ignition likes this.
  14. cmarston1

    cmarston1 Animation Enthusiast

    Ash's strongest rivals are the show executives who make it impossible for him to win a league.

    But being serious, I would have to say that Paul is Ash's strongest rival.
    AuraChannelerChris likes this.
  15. Jack16

    Jack16 New Member

    I think it was Alain
    Genaller likes this.
  16. nickdt

    nickdt Well-Known Member

    I don't think Alain can defeat Tobias though lol.
  17. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Knucklehead Ninja

    Was Tobias really a rival or just a last moment introduced dream crusher/plot device to kick Ash out of the League?
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  18. Akkipeddi

    Akkipeddi The Great Seal

    We don't know enough about Tobias to know that. If the rest of Tobias's team is legendaries of the same range as Darkrai and Latios, then Tobias would win as a whole. But, if the rest of his team isn't as formidable as his first two Pokémon, then Alain would win. Based on what we know in the anime, MCX is the only regular trainer Pokémon in the E4 range, so I do rank it to be more formidable than Darkrai and Latios.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  19. Zoruagible

    Zoruagible Lover of underrated characters

    Paul's the strongest, no questions asked. He put his Pokemon through intense training and actually worked to get where he was at, unlike that cheat Alain who wouldn't be able to win without Mega Evolution. Paul doesn't need Mega Evolution to be a bad ass.

    Alain wasn't even a rival anyways, he was stupidly forced into the League for no reason. His goals don't align with Ash's. Alain was nothing but a tool
  20. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Aiyeeeeee... Mr.”true trainers don’t need Megas” strikes again! Also; nah! Alain can beat Paul just fine without Mega Evolution. I consider Paul’s best team to be T.U.F.E.N.D and this is how the match goes:

    Torterra vs Tyranitar -> Torterra (recall)
    Drapion vs Weavile -> Drapion (recall)
    (Guts) Ursaring vs Bisharp -> Draw
    Froslass vs Unfezzant -> Froslass
    Froslass vs Metagross -> Metagross
    Ninjask vs Metagross -> Metagross
    Torterra vs Metagross -> Draw
    Drapion vs Charizard -> Charizard
    Electivire vs Charizard -> Charizard

    Alain wins 6-5 decisively! With or without Mega Evolution, the only on-screen non -champion trainer to defeat an E4 in combat is Ash’s strongest rival (IIRC the promos flat-out say so when hyping up Alain and Ash meeting up in XYZ)!

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