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Ash's Under-rated pokemon

Silver_Seoul

Well-Known Member
Well, if you want to disregard everything except for one battle, where his loss wasn't entirely his fault, and it was needed for the plot (as much as you deny it, it was), and ignore the battles he's done well in, and the fact that he's been getting stronger throughout DP, then please go ahead - since I won't be able to convince you :S

If Charizard can be excused from such a loss then so can Torterra. Take a look at its opponents since it evolved:

Palmer
Paul
Bertha
Volkner

No wonder it lost its touch. Ash chooses it to go up against the toughest people possible. So I still regard Torterra to be a powerhouse just as much as Charizard, simply in its own way. If anything it's Sceptile level, for tiring out a Frontier Brain's Pokemon. :p
 

Dax

Legend
Underrated
Totodile- 'Nuff said.

I'm pretty sure in Totodile's next battle we'll see it get to the levels of Ash's other pokemon, just like Noctowl did.

Staraptor- Ash's first Sinnoh Powerhouse has been reduced to the fall guy as of lately.

I don't understand, it has never been a fall guy in gyms or random battles. It's actually Ash's only Sinnoh pokemon to be get that treatment. If it ends up losing
against Paul without a win it would be Staraptor's first time as a fall guy.
 

Silver_Seoul

Well-Known Member
I don't understand, it has never been a fall guy in gyms or random battles. It's actually Ash's only Sinnoh pokemon to be get that treatment. If it ends up losing
against Paul without a win it would be Staraptor's first time as a fall guy.

Well actually Staraptor played the fall guy against Nando, seeing as Heracross was the star and Quilava was the middle-man. But still, Staraptor is anything but underrated. He's perfectly fine as a powerhouse.
 

striker

I AM THAT IS
Well, if you want to disregard everything except for one battle, where his loss wasn't entirely his fault, and it was needed for the plot (as much as you deny it, it was), and ignore the battles he's done well in, and the fact that he's been getting stronger throughout DP, then please go ahead - since I won't be able to convince you :S

1. Whos fault was it?

2. Charizard has had how many battles anyway? Under 10 under Ashs control im sure...

3. People cant keep playing the plot card, you guys are worse then wrestling fans, either you completely talk as if its real, or you do as if its fake, you all cant keep jumping back and forth. Cause if you play the plot card, charizard just isnt strong at all, hes just made to look good to promote the show, nothing more nothing less...

4. Im not ignoring the battles, just the ones he has done lately. Thats like saying "O O, KINGLER IS BY FAR ASHES STRONGEST WATER TYPE, LOOK AT WHAT IT DID TO MANDY!!!!!!!!. Which was 4 sagas ago... what has it done lately?"

5. Arguably, got stronger, its not as if we can actually tell, since we dont see what happpens in the Valley, but if he did get stronger, what would happen for him vs Dusclops, if he beat Articuno? Was Articuno weaker then Dusclops? Was Articuno just weak?
 

Dax

Legend
Well actually Staraptor played the fall guy against Nando, seeing as Heracross was the star and Quilava was the middle-man. But still, Staraptor is anything but underrated. He's perfectly fine as a powerhouse.

No one was a fall guy there. Everyone got a win. If anything the one close to a fall guy was Quilava because the battle ended in a tie. Heracross and Staraptor defeated someone and were able to battle.
 

Silver_Seoul

Well-Known Member
No one was a fall guy there. Everyone got a win. If anything the one close to a fall guy was Quilava because the battle ended in a tie. Heracross and Starator defeated someone and were able to battle.

Actually getting a win doesn't exempt someone from being a fall guy. Every battle has its fall guy. Donphan was the fall guy in the Conway battle and Skarmory was in Paul and Barry. Sure, Staraptor got a win and they didn't, but Staraptor played the fall guy. His battle wasn't even worthy of being called a battle. It was literally "attack-fall-dodge-attack" and then he won. Then Armaldo OHKO'd it with an attack that was also super effective against Quilava. Okay, we only saw like a minute of their battle, but Quilava was able to tie with a Pokemon having an attack that OHKO'd Staraptor? Seems like Quilava was just above Staraptor but just below Hera.

Trust me, I'm not denying Staraptor's strength. But he was certainly the fall guy of VS Nando.
 

Dax

Legend
Actually getting a win doesn't exempt someone from being a fall guy. Every battle has its fall guy. Donphan was the fall guy in the Conway battle and Skarmory was in Paul and Barry. Sure, Staraptor got a win and they didn't, but Staraptor played the fall guy. His battle wasn't even worthy of being called a battle. It was literally "attack-fall-dodge-attack" and then he won. Then Armaldo OHKO'd it with an attack that was also super effective against Quilava. Okay, we only saw like a minute of their battle, but Quilava was able to tie with a Pokemon having an attack that OHKO'd Staraptor? Seems like Quilava was just above Staraptor but just below Hera.

Trust me, I'm not denying Staraptor's strength. But he was certainly the fall guy of VS Nando.

I guess we'll agree on disagreeing. For me no one was a fall guy with Quilava having the least impressive performance but still doing something.:)
 

dawn hater

Well-Known Member
I don't understand, it has never been a fall guy in gyms or random battles. It's actually Ash's only Sinnoh pokemon to be get that treatment. If it ends up losing
against Paul without a win it would be Staraptor's first time as a fall guy.

Not exactly. Staraptor was a fall guy against Paul when it was a Starly and against Reggie when it was a Staravia.

To me the most underrated Pokemon is Snorlax. That Pokemon has such a nice win to loss ratio and still people don't call it Ash's strongest Pokemon. And its not like it defeated something like Cherubi or Bibarel, it defeated strong Pokemon like Steelix and Arcanine.

On second spot is Gliscor. It defeated a Pokemon belonging to third most powerful gym leader of Sinnoh still people call it weak. It also held its back against Paul's Torterra and also defeated Buneary when it was still a Gligar, same Buneary that defeated a legendary.
 

Dax

Legend
Not exactly. Staraptor was a fall guy against Paul when it was a Starly and against Reggie when it was a Staravia.

I stand corrected.

To me the most underrated Pokemon is Snorlax. That Pokemon has such a nice win to loss ratio and still people don't call it Ash's strongest Pokemon. And its not like it defeated something like Cherubi or Bibarel, it defeated strong Pokemon like Steelix and Arcanine.

From what I've seen, most people's list of Ash's strongest include Snorlax.
 

Indragon

Back in the USSR
If Charizard can be excused from such a loss then so can Torterra. Take a look at its opponents since it evolved:

Palmer
Paul
Bertha
Volkner

No wonder it lost its touch. Ash chooses it to go up against the toughest people possible. So I still regard Torterra to be a powerhouse just as much as Charizard, simply in its own way. If anything it's Sceptile level, for tiring out a Frontier Brain's Pokemon. :p

I'm not saying Torterra's weak in any way. Like I said, I think it's almost as strong as Charizard, but not quite. But yeah, it's not like Torterra's godly either.

1. Whos fault was it?

Ash's?

2. Charizard has had how many battles anyway? Under 10 under Ashs control im sure...

I've not counted, but its come out triumphant in a majority of those, including some extraordinary ones like in the battle against Gary.

3. People cant keep playing the plot card, you guys are worse then wrestling fans, either you completely talk as if its real, or you do as if its fake, you all cant keep jumping back and forth.

I'm not pulling any "plot card". I've never said that its loss can be excused by the plot, but the fact still stands.

Cause if you play the plot card, charizard just isnt strong at all, hes just made to look good to promote the show, nothing more nothing less...

If you break it down to that, then fine. It's not wrong. But then, we might as well stop treating characters and Pokemon in the anime as individuals. Everything's pointless then.

4. Im not ignoring the battles, just the ones he has done lately. Thats like saying "O O, KINGLER IS BY FAR ASHES STRONGEST WATER TYPE, LOOK AT WHAT IT DID TO MANDY!!!!!!!!. Which was 4 sagas ago... what has it done lately?"

But you are ignoring them. Especially because by all logical assumption, Charizard's been getting stronger everyday. That means he's better than what he was before, which was pretty darn good, I might add.

As for Kingler, one can indeed say it's Ash's best Water type. It just needs to get the chance to prove itself in battle.

5. Arguably, got stronger, its not as if we can actually tell, since we dont see what happpens in the Valley, but if he did get stronger, what would happen for him vs Dusclops, if he beat Articuno? Was Articuno weaker then Dusclops? Was Articuno just weak?

By logical assumption, as I said, it's getting stronger. Once again, the Dusclop's battle wasn't the example of Charizard's strength, but a momentarily lapse in Ash's commands.
 

Blazicken

Sex on fire
gible. its potential is huge (is my feeling)
kingler. is more powerfull than it looks.
torterra. idk, it hasn't shown us much lately, but it's deffinitly underrated
heracross. i lost my confidence in it for a whil after watching it getting beaten so easely by garys blastoise (i mean seriously). but it's proven to have gotten plenty strong.
swellow (by those who think staraptor is better cause he has better moves)
it can take plenty powerfull atacks, even electric ones, it's speed is incredible
and has never fainted before at least taking out 1 of the enemys pokemon.
 

striker

I AM THAT IS
Ash's?

I've not counted, but its come out triumphant in a majority of those, including some extraordinary ones like in the battle against Gary.

I'm not pulling any "plot card". I've never said that its loss can be excused by the plot, but the fact still stands.

If you break it down to that, then fine. It's not wrong. But then, we might as well stop treating characters and Pokemon in the anime as individuals. Everything's pointless then.

But you are ignoring them. Especially because by all logical assumption, Charizard's been getting stronger everyday. That means he's better than what he was before, which was pretty darn good, I might add.

As for Kingler, one can indeed say it's Ash's best Water type. It just needs to get the chance to prove itself in battle.

By logical assumption, as I said, it's getting stronger. Once again, the Dusclop's battle wasn't the example of Charizard's strength, but a momentarily lapse in Ash's commands.

I dont see how this is actually Ashs fault the way you put it... fair enough he commanded a Sesimic Toss, but in the unpredictable anime that could have worked one time and not the other. But apart from that Ash did fine...

Charizards has had two battles since Blaziken: Articuno and Dusclops. Calling in his triumphs from 3 sagas ago is unnecesary when we have up to date battles now. Why linger on past victories/loses? Cause yet again all he actually did was beat Gary and Clair? And since Harrison did get further then Gary and beat the trainer who beat Gary one can assume that Harrison was the better trainer and had the better Pokemon between the two..

and it was needed for the plot (as much as you deny it, it was)
^ thats not playing the "plot card"?

And have we actually seen an increase in power or just a change in moves? Can we clearly say he has gotten stronger being unable to see what is happening in the Valley or could he still be the wimp he was before compared to the others? It's just an assumption that he is getting stronger cause he was left their to "train" but we have no way of telling whether it is actually working or how much he has improved. One can mearly assume that he has gotten stronger, when we can clearly see the change is mostly in his moves.
 
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Eternal Darkness

Eternal Evil
torterra. idk, it hasn't shown us much lately, but it's deffinitly underrated

Well if you've been listening to earlier posts you'll find out Torterra battled the strongest Frontier Brain in the SBF, an Elite Four Member, Paul with his strongest Bogusmonz, and the strongest Gym Leader in Sinnoh. All very powerful people if you ask me...
 

Indragon

Back in the USSR
I dont see how this is actually Ashs fault the way you put it... fair enough he commanded a Sesimic Toss, but in the unpredictable anime that could have worked one time and not the other. But apart from that Ash did fine...

The battle was lost due to the Seismic Toss error. That's a critical mistake, and you can't just ignore it. And Fighting attacks don't work on Ghosts.

Charizards has had two battles since Blaziken: Articuno and Dusclops. Calling in his triumphs from 3 sagas ago is unnecesary when we have up to date battles now. Why linger on past victories/loses? Cause yet again all he actually did was beat Gary and Clair? And since Harrison did get further then Gary and beat the trainer who beat Gary one can assume that Harrison was the better trainer and had the better Pokemon between the two..

Who deems it unnecessary? You? Those battles were part of Pokemon, too, and should be treated as such. You can't choose which battles to take into consideration and which not to.

And Harrison's Pokemon have nothing to do with this. He probably had better Pokemon, but that doesn't have anything to do with Ash's Pokemon.

^ thats not playing the "plot card"?

I was stating a fact, which you seemed to be denying. Did I blame Charizard's defeat on the plot?

And have we actually seen an increase in power or just a change in moves? Can we clearly say he has gotten stronger being unable to see what is happening in the Valley or could he still be the wimp he was before compared to the others? It's just an assumption that he is getting stronger cause he was left their to "train" but we have no way of telling whether it is actually working or how much he has improved. One can mearly assume that he has gotten stronger, when we can clearly see the change is mostly in his moves.

There's no way to actually measure a Pokemon's power in the anime, because of the lack of levels and stats.

Once more, if you refuse listen, and instead just close your eyes and ignore what's actually happening, claiming that Charizard does nothing but fatten himself up in the Valley, to support your arguments, then you're wrong and just clutching for straws. We can't tell how much he's improved, but we can tell he has. And considering the time period, I'd say considerably.

And in the anime, new moves generally equate to more training, more power and more experience; just so you know.

or could he still be the wimp he was before compared to the others

Yeeeaaaah :rolleyes:
 

striker

I AM THAT IS
The battle was lost due to the Seismic Toss error. That's a critical mistake, and you can't just ignore it. And Fighting attacks don't work on Ghosts.


I didn't ignore it, i said fair enough, and i said the way you put it. But there is no way to tell if those rules are going to be applied in an anime battle, thats just common knowledge. And i said fair enough, but throughout that battle i would have to say Charizard did seem mediocre compared to Dusknoir or about the same, but then what does that say about his oponents in the past then? Articuno, Blaziken, Blastoise?

Who deems it unnecessary? You? Those battles were part of Pokemon, too, and should be treated as such. You can't choose which battles to take into consideration and which not to.

Where apart of Pokemon... 3 SAGAS AGO... Logically speaking, what is a better way to measure someones strengh? By their past accolades which happened a while ago no matter how you put it, or more current ones? And linger on the past, what do we see? Ash's Charizard losing to a Pokemon similer to him. Or beating a Pokemon that was in more battles then Charizard was throughout the match... Im after relevence, not bringing up dirt. Cause think about it, past isnt the most reliable source. Pikachu took down a mother****ing Dragonite (dispite it being through multiple battles). OR even all his other fights, but lost to an Elekid first thing in Sinnoh. Now what do you want to look at when measuring Pikachus strength? Dragonite fight or Elekid fight? One in the past, or the one in the present?

And Harrison's Pokemon have nothing to do with this. He probably had better Pokemon, but that doesn't have anything to do with Ash's Pokemon.
Really...nothing? You telling me your oponent has nothing to do with this? Seriously? Im not even going to lingure on this point.


I was stating a fact, which you seemed to be denying. Did I blame Charizard's defeat on the plot?

and it was needed for the plot (as much as you deny it, it was)


Keyword you used in the quote: PLOT. And how is it a fact? Charizard could have just easily have defeated Dusknoir and then lost to Solerock, "for the plot".


There's no way to actually measure a Pokemon's power in the anime, because of the lack of levels and stats.

Once more, if you refuse listen, and instead just close your eyes and ignore what's actually happening, claiming that Charizard does nothing but fatten himself up in the Valley,

No i didnt...
to support your arguments, then you're wrong and just clutching for straws. We can't tell how much he's improved, but we can tell he has. And considering the time period, I'd say considerably.

Contradiction, you cant just say you cant tell and then say he has considerably, its one or the other. And personally i say you cant tell..

So who was the stronger Pokemon? Dusknoir or Articuno? Cause he went back to the valley to "train" did he not? But he came back and lost... Does that mean that Dusknoir was just superior?
And in the anime, new moves generally equate to more training, more power and more experience; just so you know.

Well yes and no, more training? yes. More power? no, not really. Cause the moves arent just learnt cause the Pokemon has gotten stronger but more to do with the situation at hand which you have seen countless times in the anime. For example: Skittys Blizzard. It didnt learn it through strength but mearly situation
 

Eternal Darkness

Eternal Evil
I didn't ignore it, i said fair enough, and i said the way you put it. But there is no way to tell if those rules are going to be applied in an anime battle, thats just common knowledge. And i said fair enough, but throughout that battle i would have to say Charizard did seem mediocre compared to Dusknoir or about the same, but then what does that say about his oponents in the past then? Articuno, Blaziken, Blastoise?

Brandon didn't use Dusknoir. He used Dusclops...

Plus power flunctuates in the Anime a lot...
 

striker

I AM THAT IS
Brandon didn't use Dusknoir. He used Dusclops...

lol, i know, you have no idea how many times i keep making that mistake whilst typing, but i dont always pick it up. Just a side effect of living in Gen 4 so long :p
 

hunt

Well-Known Member
striker said:
but then lost when (we can assume he got stronger concidering the time skip?) he faced a pokemon of neutral typing to him. And not in a close fight.

Erm, from the video you linked us to it quite clearly shows that it was a close fight and that Charizard had an advantage (for a split second) that Ash blew by calling a fighting attack on a ghost.

To be honest, the only reason the loss looks devastating is because after this season they introduced an evolution to Dusclops... if they hadn't its quite respectable to lose to a fully evolved Pokemon owned by the strongest trainer of the Battle Frontier... Pokemon ret-conning at its finest...
 

Eternal Darkness

Eternal Evil
lol, i know, you have no idea how many times i keep making that mistake whilst typing, but i dont always pick it up. Just a side effect of living in Gen 4 so long :p

Probably be the same when we are almost done with Gen 5 too.
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
Clearly, Totodile is one of Ash's most underrated pokemon...I'd have to say that its most impressive victory was against Jessie using that Park's Charizard in Johto, but Jessie doesn't have great battling skills or strategy so perhaps that should go to the Kingdra in the Whirl Cup. I don't think Harrison's Sneasel was that great a win.

What do you all consider Ash's Totodile's greatest victory?
 
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