Ash's Under-rated pokemon

[striker]

Erm, from the video you linked us to it quite clearly shows that it was a close fight and that Charizard had an advantage (for a split second) that Ash blew by calling a fighting attack on a ghost.

To be honest, the only reason the loss looks devastating is because after this season they introduced an evolution to Dusclops... if they hadn't its quite respectable to lose to a fully evolved Pokemon owned by the strongest trainer of the Battle Frontier... Pokemon ret-conning at its finest...

I didnt even think about Duskclops not being fully evolved, i never apply that logic to a show where most Pokemon just choose not to evolve. My point, to sum it up in a nut shell: Charizard is overated and cant be called Ash's strongest Pokemon as there is no way to prove he is.

 

[Eternal Darkness]

What do you all consider Ash's Totodile's greatest victory?

That one where he wins obviously...

 

[thunderblade12]

The reason the loss looks so devastating is because Charizard had just defeated a legendary. The battle shouldn't have been close against a mere Dusclops.

You could say that Brandon is the strongest Frontier Brain, fine, but he's still a Frontier Brain. I doubt he's so many levels above the rest of the Frontier Brains that he can train one of his pokemon to be stronger than an actual legendary while the other Frontier Brains pokemon reside happy at just above Gym Leader-pokemon strength.

And then there's the other group of people that insist that Dusclops was the pokemon that helped him catch all three Regs. We seriously don't know this. Brandon may have used multiple pokemon to wear down the first Regi and then used it to capture the other two. The first Regi may have joined him the same way Articuno joined Noland and he used that to catch the other two. Or all three may have joined him. They're all equally likely options.

In short, it's pure speculation to think there was anything special about Brandon's Dusclops that made it superior to any of the other Frontier Brain's pokemon we seen that saga. Power does indeed fluctuate and Charizard's no stranger to this either. Even if Ash didn't screw up, it was have just narrowly defeated Dusclops and probably fainted to the next pokemon. Then we have Bulbasaur who polished off Dusclops and still had the strength to take down one of Brandon's other pokemon. So is Bulbasaur as strong as Charizard? The Johto League sure didn't make it look that way sence Bulbasaur only tied against Meganium whereas Charizard was whipping down three members of Gary's team (two of which it had a major disadvantage against.)

That's why it makes absolutely no sense to argue about the strength of characters/pokemon/attacks in the anime. It changes so often with little or no explanation.


Just stating a POV

Clearly, Totodile is one of Ash's most underrated pokemon...I'd have to say that its most impressive victory was against Jessie using that Park's Charizard in Johto, but Jessie doesn't have great battling skills or strategy so perhaps that should go to the Kingdra in the Whirl Cup. I don't think Harrison's Sneasel was that great a win.

What do you all consider Ash's Totodile's greatest victory?

The Sneasle...

At least it's trainer was someone that had earned at least 8 (but probably 16) badges. That Kingdra just belonged to some random guy. The trainer matters just as much, if not more than the trainer.

 

[Eternal Darkness]

And then there's the other group of people that insist that Dusclops was the pokemon that helped him catch all three Regs. We seriously don't know this. Brandon may have used multiple pokemon to wear down the first Regi and then used it to capture the other two. The first Regi may have joined him the same way Articuno joined Noland and he used that to catch the other two. Or all three may have joined him. They're all equally likely options.

For some reson I see the wild Articuno weaker than other trained Legendary Pokemon...

 

[striker]

The Johto League sure didn't make it look that way sence Bulbasaur only tied against Meganium whereas Charizard was whipping down three members of Gary's team (two of which it had a major disadvantage against.)

Only? After it took down a fresh Magneton... lets not forget that. And it was clear that Maganium was superior to Bulbasaur but he still took it down.

 

[Eternal Darkness]

Only? After it took down a fresh Magneton... lets not forget that. And it was clear that Maganium was superior to Bulbasaur but he still took it down.

Wait when was that battle?

 

[thunderblade12]

Still, I don't think that compares to Charizard taking down a Scizor that just pummeled Snorlax, a Golem with a 4X advantage and the ability to stop it's Seismic Toss, and Gary's "most powerful" pokemon which also had a type advantage against it. Yet the battle against Brandon made Bulbasaur look as if it were on equal footing with Charizard.

And Buizel defeated one of Paul's pokemon, one that nearly raped Staraptor (literally.) That should be a good enough note for it to go out on. Honestly, I still haven't gotten over Torterra and Buizel's days of being overused. Turtwig starring in the first gym and semi-starring in the second and Buizel taking the 3rd and 4th. If Torterra gets a win here, they can join Infernape in the "I don't wanna see them battle Takuto" group IMO.

 

[striker]

Wait when was that battle?

Johto league. Against Jackson, group stages.

 

[Eternal Darkness]

Still, I don't think that compares to Charizard taking down a Scizor that just pummeled Snorlax, a Golem with a 4X advantage and the ability to stop it's Seismic Toss, and Gary's "most powerful" pokemon which also had a type advantage against it. Yet the battle against Brandon made Bulbasaur look as if it were on equal footing with Charizard.

That must make near equal then right?

 

[Indragon]

I didn't ignore it, i said fair enough, and i said the way you put it. But there is no way to tell if those rules are going to be applied in an anime battle, thats just common knowledge. And i said fair enough, but throughout that battle i would have to say Charizard did seem mediocre compared to Dusknoir or about the same, but then what does that say about his oponents in the past then? Articuno, Blaziken, Blastoise?

Obviously those rules will be applied! They even were applied...

The anime doesn't mess up type matchups too much anymore. You can't say "we don't know if they'd applied that", when they so obviously did.

And Charizard matched Dusclops quite easily throughout the battle, gaining the slight upperhand until the Seismic Toss order. And do you think Dusclops is some pathetic weakling?

Where apart of Pokemon... 3 SAGAS AGO... Logically speaking, what is a better way to measure someones strengh? By their past accolades which happened a while ago no matter how you put it, or more current ones?

Both of them. Charizard was strong in the past, as evident, and that power hasn't dropped. It's increased, on the contrary.

And linger on the past, what do we see? Ash's Charizard losing to a Pokemon similer to him. Or beating a Pokemon that was in more battles then Charizard was throughout the match... Im after relevence, not bringing up dirt.

It's not "dirt". It's all relevant to Charizard's battle record, however you slice it.

Cause think about it, past isnt the most reliable source. Pikachu took down a mother****ing Dragonite (dispite it being through multiple battles). OR even all his other fights, but lost to an Elekid first thing in Sinnoh.

Yeah, that Dragonite was quite weakened (guess by who?), which was the reason Pikachu could defeat it. Tied with the Elekid, I believe.

Now what do you want to look at when measuring Pikachus strength? Dragonite fight or Elekid fight? One in the past, or the one in the present?

I'll take both. A weakened Dragonite is comparable to a well-trained Elekid under a good battler like Paul. Besides, Pikachu's "power resets" are common knowledge.

Really...nothing? You telling me your oponent has nothing to do with this? Seriously? Im not even going to lingure on this point.

That's what you're saying. I'm saying Harrison's Pokemon aren't relevant when comparing Ash's.

and it was needed for the plot (as much as you deny it, it was)

Keyword you used in the quote: PLOT. And how is it a fact? Charizard could have just easily have defeated Dusknoir and then lost to Solerock, "for the plot".

It was to show how Brandon was good enough to even take down Ash's supposed best Pokemon first. That adds drama and suspense into the battle, while putting pressure on Ash.

No i didnt...

Well obviously not in so many words, but you question if Charizard is at all training.

Contradiction, you cant just say you cant tell and then say he has considerably, its one or the other. And personally i say you cant tell..

I said you can't tell exactly. You can make a fair logical deduction. "Considerably" isn't a precise value, if you've noticed.

So who was the stronger Pokemon? Dusknoir or Articuno? Cause he went back to the valley to "train" did he not? But he came back and lost... Does that mean that Dusknoir was just superior?

...

He lost because of Ash's incompetency.

Once again, it may not be Articuno level strong, but Brandon's Dusclops isn't weak by any means, as you seem to be assuming.

Well yes and no, more training? yes. More power? no, not really. Cause the moves arent just learnt cause the Pokemon has gotten stronger but more to do with the situation at hand which you have seen countless times in the anime. For example: Skittys Blizzard. It didnt learn it through strength but mearly situation

A Pokemon's training and experience are part of its strength or power. Power doesn't merely mean physical strength. But for Charizard to learn new moves and master it, it needs strength and skill even if it was learned "situationally". Somehow.

My point, to sum it up in a nut shell: Charizard is overated and cant be called Ash's strongest Pokemon as there is no way to prove he is.

Only if you ignore the evidence, that is.

 

[d4rk_tailed]

Paras!!!! OMG we forget about Paras stabbing Charmeleon's belly!!!......
Paras pwned OMGGGG Man!!!!!!!!!!!

Geez, I hear the same muff, does everyone really say "Charizard must be there for Ash to win"? The last time I checked, pretty much everyone seems happy when Ash uses anyone else, the critics keep feeding me this line I just put in bold above because they are lacking in anything good to say. Oh, Charizard fans have a logical argument, must tell them that Charizard isnt needed...absolute bs. Someone wrote, when comparing Gliscor to Charizard: "Oh, because Charizard is speshul." BAHAHAHAHAH!!! The writers portrayal of Gliscor, as of yet, is unfit to chew the tip of the pencil that drew Charizard!

Give it a rest. What clear alternatives are there to a Pokemon who did for half of his rival's team, helped win final badges in both OI and Johto (against maybe Claire's best), defeated a Frontier facility?

 

[Eternal Darkness]

Give it a rest. What clear alternatives are there to a Pokemon who did for half of his rival's team, helped win final badges in both OI and Johto (against maybe Claire's best), defeated a Frontier facility?

Go down Butterfree's path maybe?

 

[Blazicken]

Well if you've been listening to earlier posts you'll find out Torterra battled the strongest Frontier Brain in the SBF, an Elite Four Member, Paul with his strongest Bogusmonz, and the strongest Gym Leader in Sinnoh. All very powerful people if you ask me...

yeah,
i know the opponents were powerfull but it didn't take down any of their pokemon.
maybe it's ash's fault but losing against an electivire ... =/
can't call it a powerhouse

 

[ChaosMage]

I personally think the writers overpowered Charizard in late Johto. Defeating Dragonair I can buy, but I never really accepted taking out half of Gary's team single-handedly as anything more than over-generous writing because Charizard was a big fan favourite and didn't have a Johto counterpart. For whatever reason they never decided to evolve Cyndaquil or Totodile, either of which would be praised just as much as Charizard or Sceptile had they fully evolved back in Johto, and the only pokemon Ash could convincingly take on Gary's powerhouses with were Charizard, Snorlax, Pikachu and Heracross... Pikachu wasn't even used and the other three shared the victories between them. And unfortunately, Charizard lovers usually cite this rather implausible streak as proof that Charizard is not only Ash's strongest pokemon (and it certainly is up there, don't get me wrong) but is the strongest by a huge margin.

 

[thunderblade12]

Charizard fans have a logical argument

Not really. They just seem to laugh in the face of anyone that says otherwise without even posing a reason as to why their logic is so laughable. They continue to act as if their opinion is beyond the point of even needing logic.

Just out of curiosity, and this isn't just one of my sarcastic rhetorical questions I'm genuinely curious, when did childish mockery in the attempt to bolster your credibility and demean the opposing side and and the equivalent of "lalala not listening!" become a form of "logic?"

 

[striker]

Obviously those rules will be applied! They even were applied...

The anime doesn't mess up type matchups too much anymore. You can't say "we don't know if they'd applied that", when they so obviously did.

And Charizard matched Dusclops quite easily throughout the battle, gaining the slight upperhand until the Seismic Toss order. And do you think Dusclops is some pathetic weakling?



Both of them. Charizard was strong in the past, as evident, and that power hasn't dropped. It's increased, on the contrary.



It's not "dirt". It's all relevant to Charizard's battle record, however you slice it.



Yeah, that Dragonite was quite weakened (guess by who?), which was the reason Pikachu could defeat it. Tied with the Elekid, I believe.



I'll take both. A weakened Dragonite is comparable to a well-trained Elekid under a good battler like Paul. Besides, Pikachu's "power resets" are common knowledge.



That's what you're saying. I'm saying Harrison's Pokemon aren't relevant when comparing Ash's.



It was to show how Brandon was good enough to even take down Ash's supposed best Pokemon first. That adds drama and suspense into the battle, while putting pressure on Ash.



Well obviously not in so many words, but you question if Charizard is at all training.



I said you can't tell exactly. You can make a fair logical deduction. "Considerably" isn't a precise value, if you've noticed.



...

He lost because of Ash's incompetency.

Once again, it may not be Articuno level strong, but Brandon's Dusclops isn't weak by any means, as you seem to be assuming.



A Pokemon's training and experience are part of its strength or power. Power doesn't merely mean physical strength. But for Charizard to learn new moves and master it, it needs strength and skill even if it was learned "situationally". Somehow.



Only if you ignore the evidence, that is.

I am getting pretty tied of this, so im going to start closing this debate...

You have absolutely no proof to support any claim that states Charizard is Ash's strongest... He isnt Underated. You know this, for you knew that when you mentioned it you will be challenged on the matter. We have no way of telling that Ash's other Pokemon could not have taken on the Pokemon Charizard did as they werent given the oppotunity. Although we clearly saw Bulbasaur defeat the Dusknoir Charizard lost to, which if it was Ash's best would mean that the rest of his team would be doomed from that moment. You also dont know how much Charizard has claimed to have gained stronger in the Valley, so you cant say he has grown by xx amount. You can only assume, and like i keep saying, if he has then was does that say about the past Pokemon he has beaten? The fact of the matter is Charizard was only ever concidered Ash's strongest cause it was the first Final Evolution Pokemon he had (not including the bug), and you cant deny this fact. Whether Gary's Pokemon (and i notice how you dont wants to bring up Harrison) is even the best mesure to tell how strong Charizard is is debatable in itself cause we again, assume that he is strong with no real basis.

And that is all

 

[masukippa]

Charizard was Ash's undoubted best at the end of Johto. Fact.

Since then, others have strengthened (eg Bulbasaur, Squirtle), others have been caught (Sceptile, Infernape) and the position is now in debate. For me, Charizard is the best by a narrow margin atm. Snorlax second, Bulba third. Hard to say where Pika comes in due to its complete lack of decent wins during Sinnoh.

 

[d4rk_tailed]

Not really. They just seem to laugh in the face of anyone that says otherwise without even posing a reason as to why their logic is so laughable. They continue to act as if their opinion is beyond the point of even needing logic.

Just out of curiosity, and this isn't just one of my sarcastic rhetorical questions I'm genuinely curious, when did childish mockery in the attempt to bolster your credibility and demean the opposing side and and the equivalent of "lalala not listening!" become a form of "logic?"

Hold on...............I just realised that was my quote you were commenting on.......did I childishly mock you? I read back through the post, sure I was a bit sarky, but was there something childish in there? I dont need to bolster my credibility, this is Pokemon!!! Who needs credibility to discuss a cartoon?

How is it beyond the point of needing logic? Tell you what, Ill set you a quick task. Over the coming months, if you can post links to at least 7 different users with more than 400 posts each (ie. not entirely new users) who say "Ash needs Charizard to win anything and everything he battles," I will come back to you and bow down and admit I am wrong about Charizard fans' twisted logic. Like I said, you just throw out that all fans say the above line............I cant really find evidence to support that. We listen, and we talk back. Its not a case of 'not listening' and then bullsh*tting back, is it?

Send me proof.....and I bow down.

 

[Caseydia]

I don't think Charizard is the strongest by far. I still think it's the strongest on Ash's team. It's obivously a wimp when it arrived at Charizard Valley. Now, he's stronger, a bodyguard for some pretty stupid reason I think, and he got himself a girl, who looked down at him, for being weak. So he's strong, I can say that.

I will still rank it as Ash's best, but not by far. Snorlax, Heracross, Sceptile, Swellow, and hate to say it, but Infernape can all pass Charizard. But it's impossible to make a list. We can't put everybody in a big Battle Royale and then have them all destroy each other.

But anywho, if Ash really needs help, he can just call Charizard on the Charizard-mobile!
Call 48-15-16-23 to call for Charizard, Charizard Valley, house number 42!

Charizard was already strong, it's just that the writers were dumb in choosing Liza to get rid of it by bringing down it's self esteem in staying at the valley.

 

[DarkWobbuffet]

I honestly don't even put much thought into the whole matter of Pokemon strength in the anime anymore. Mostly due to the writers having an obsession with the "Strong As They Need to Be" trope.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrongAsTheyNeedToBe

For those who don't want to accidentally destroy their entire day by clicking this link, I'll summarize it. Basically in shows like Pokemon, battle outcomes are determined by who the writers want to win, rather then by who you'd expect to win. One episode Corphish defeats a Frontier Brain's Alakazam singlehandedly, a few episodes later it loses in a one-sided fight to a Nurse Joy's Chansey of all things.

As for the topic at hand, Cyndaquil. He was used in more then half the gym battles and has gotten a win each time, not to mention some nice victories in normal matches, including a Skarmory that was trained to resist fire. He didn't get a whole lot of use in the league sadly. He did beat an Exeggutor in a sudden death match, but got whupped by Jackson's Magneton, and that's about it.