Atheist & Agnostic Family

[Volts]

Pretty sure me & Darato have spoken before, so I'll post here and see if we can finish our talk from before.

 

[Darato]

Welcome Volt

Also read this on FB today, posted by a friend of a friend

We learn from history. If a Trojan Horse appeared on our border in the middle of a war, would we let it into our country? No, because we have learned from history. Well, we have a history book that is very important; God's scriptures. So why do we let gay marriage enter into our country? Have we not read what happened to Soddom and Gomorrah? And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that God will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.? God will not protect us if we continue to trample under our feet His laws. Sadly this wonderful country will one day be destroyed because of our own wickedness, unless we repent.

Couple weeks ago, he was upset his friend got married outside a Mormon marriage to the point he called her out about it, and told her how disappointed he was on FB

L.F.D.

 

[CGS]

Welcome Volt

Also read this on FB today, posted by a friend of a friend



Couple weeks ago, he was upset his friend got married outside a Mormon marriage to the point he called her out about it, and told her how disappointed he was on FB

L.F.D.

Repost the one form the Bi/Les/Gay thread

And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that God will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.?

Nobody's pure, we all commit sins in our day to day lives. But, there's no big deal about it. At least that's how I see it.

We are becoming more wicked, and we daily see more destruction.

Yes, I agree with this.

If we want to be happy, we must follow GOD's laws and accept GOD's blessings no matter what religion, organization, party, or group we are a part

Uh, No thanks. I see no point to be honest, if he hasn't stopped it, then I see no point to follow.​

 

[Schade]

I don't Write much here.. Hope you haven't forgotten me completely.
For the record, I really enjoy Reading all of the interesting discussions you guys have. (I'm too empty-minded to join one)

 

[CGS]

I don't Write much here.. Hope you haven't forgotten me completely.
For the record, I really enjoy Reading all of the interesting discussions you guys have. (I'm too empty-minded to join one)

Who are you again?

Just jump in one, hell I do​

 

[Schade]

Uhm.. on the first page, I am listed as Adalricus, which was my username at this time about a year ago.

 

[Profesco]

Welcome Volt

Also read this on FB today, posted by a friend of a friend

We learn from history. If a Trojan Horse appeared on our border in the middle of a war, would we let it into our country? No, because we have learned from history. Well, we have a history book that is very important; God's scriptures. So why do we let gay marriage enter into our country? Have we not read what happened to Soddom and Gomorrah? And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that God will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.? God will not protect us if we continue to trample under our feet His laws. Sadly this wonderful country will one day be destroyed because of our own wickedness, unless we repent.

L.F.D.

This is an extremely poor argument on both counts, religious and secular. Allow me to demonstrate.

From scripture we know that the events in Sodom and Gomorrah preceded Jesus's death on the cross, which was an atonement for mankind's sins. Mankind is, unfortunately, still simply born into a state of sin - each and every one of us, not just the gay ones - but thanks to Jesus we know that our earthly sins will be absolved in the afterlife if we profess him as our savior. (Or somesuch, depending on sect.) What we learn from the "history" contained in Christian mythology is that, post crucifixion, God no longer needs to interrupt nature to hand down divine punishment, so we do not need to worry that things like S&G or the great flood or so on and so forth will happen again. Those awful gays will be judged at Heaven's gate just like everyone else.

From history, we know that, since the alleged era of Sodom and Gomorrah, there has been plenty of homosexuality, lying, adultery, thieving, murder, other-god worshipping, and all other manner of sinning. In each and every single society the world has yet experienced, in fact. And even here in modern USA, there is so much sinning done during every single minute of human consciousness that the entire North American continent should have been burned in pillars of fire a dozen times over. But despite all the sins across the history of the world, there have been no more calamitous miracles of the degree of an S&G or a great flood. What we learn from actual history is that such behavior can occur without reality-suspending destruction, rather that it is wholly up to humans to police their own behaviors (or not).


Feel free to quote me in reply to this thoughtless individual on Facebook.

 

[Darato]

Here is the full thing as of now, changed the quots to the first letters of each person' name other than my own posts.

we learn from history. If a trojan horse appeared on our border in the middle of a war, would we let it into our country? No, because we have learned from history. Well, we have a history book that is very important; god's scriptures. So why do we let gay marriage enter into our country? Have we not read what happened to soddom and gomorrah? And how do we somehow convince ourselves (and others) that god will stay his hand and somehow protect us when we continue in sexual sin, abortion, drugs, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.? God will not protect us if we continue to trample under our feet his laws. Sadly this wonderful country will one day be destroyed because of our own wickedness, unless we repent.

america isn't a theocracy. You can't rightfully base all of our laws on the bible when freedom of (and from) religion is a constitutional right. Basing laws on christian doctrine is a slap in the face to muslims, buddhists, atheists, taoists, native faiths, and so on that have no belief in the validity of the bible or the book of mormon. Church and state are separate. That's a fundamental american right. Whether or not same-sex marriage is legalized is a matter of civil law, not religious law. Holy matrimony is a religious matter and the criteria for holy matrimony are up to each individual church. Civil marriage, however, is a legal contract independent of any religion. I don't barge into your church and tell you what to do just because i disagree with it. Please keep your church out of my love life.

i hear canada is nice this time of year

B, I agree that because of laws Church and State are separate, and that Holy Matrimony and Civil Marriage should remain separate matters. Problem is, once it becomes a nationally accepted practice, there's nothing stopping people from, as you say, "barg(ing) into your church and tell(ing) you what to do" because they do disagree with it.
http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/Gay...marriage-opt/story-19597954-detail/story.html

Same-sex marriage is already legal in several states and I haven't heard of any church being sued in America. As we both have said, the US makes a big deal about the separation of church and state. And that article relates to the UK, a nation which definitely has different laws, especially with their perception of the roles of church and state. I know that I don't want to get married in the LDS temple because I'm not LDS at all. I don't see why the church is so afraid of me getting married in a courthouse.

As long as it remains on a state-to-state level there shouldn't be any issues of being sued. It's when it becomes national that that happens, which is why I put up the article from the UK, a place that has already accepted it nationally.
Personally, I'm not "afraid" or even fighting people who want to get married in a courthouse. That's their choice and they are fully entitled to it. It's when they want to infringe on my rights to live my own religion. I appreciate you understanding that when you are not of a religion it'd be a little much to demand to be married in that church, but there are people who are LDS or Christian and want to be married in a church that doesn't allow it that may not see it the same way.
As for others, the freedom of speech allows us (and you) to stand up for what we believe in, and I hope you take the response I first made as a way of explaining more about my perspective and not me getting mad at you for posting yours.

This is not just an issue of gay marriage. It is a shoutout against ALL sin. Whether it be drugs, pornography, murder, rape, incest, violence, abortion, etc. So who defines sin? Who defines what is right and wrong? Not man, not the government, not EVEN religion. (If the POPE came out tomorrow and said murder is OK, would we go murder? NO because we ALL INHERENTLY KNOW that murder is WRONG.) GOD defines sin. He has given us each a conscience. We all INHERENTLY know that the above-mentioned practices (and many other things) are WRONG. All blessings are based on natural laws that reward us for good choices. If we choose not to obey, we suffer the consequences of our own disobedience. If we allow our country to permit murder, we will eventually die out. If we allow Abortion, we will eventually die out because all babies will be aborted. If we legalize stealing, people will become lazy, wont go to work, and will instead focus their efforts on stealing, and our economy fall into ruin (as well as our safety). If we permit laws that allow everyone in the nation to carry around Nuclear weapons, chances are good this world will explode pretty soon. That is the point of this. When the government legalizes (and encourages) "sin," destruction, sadness, and misery will ALWAYS follow. Well, if you don't believe me, read history books, read the bible, and pay attention to current news. We are becoming more wicked, and we daily see more destruction. I simply encourage all do their part to leave their sins, and do their best to protect ourselves from self-destruction. Alma 41:10 Wickedness never was happiness. I'd just love to see a happier world, but the means we use to achieve that go in direct opposition to the laws of God. If we want to be happy, we must follow GOD's laws and accept GOD's blessings no matter what religion, organization, party, or group we are a part of.

Abortion is legal. People still have babies. And I don't think the Bible told us not to carry nuclear weapons on our person.

Canadians are moral

Just like to point out something: The Bible is by no means fact nor does it have any significance from a historical standpoint.

We can always ask god what he thinks....he is really the only one that can give us a clear and definite answer

We could ask a Canadian

K, I normally don't get involved in political posts, but I think gay rights transcends politics. It's about people. Spencer, please think about the gay teenagers, boys, girls reading this post. Being gay is not an action; it's an identity. And I think reading that your very identity, the essence of who you are as a person, is sinful, leads to the dangerously high suicide rate we have in this country for young, gay individuals. If we want to be happy, we need to accept and love each other for the beautiful people we are. How do you repent for your own genetics?

There is both an identity (attraction) and an action (acting on it) connected with being gay. (eg. the Pope was obviously not condoning gay sex/marriage among priests when he accepted gay priests) Using the two interchangeably in arguments either way is a fallacy, since they are distinct concepts. Regardless of which side you're on, some wise words to remember are "A good man can scarcely serve the truth worse than to defend it by ill-conceived arguments" -Henry Eyring (the world-renowned scientist, not the Mormon Apostle)

So if i was born with a genetic desire to rape or kill i would control myself because killing is wrong. What about child molesters? Should we allow them to rape our children simply because they were "born that way?" Or should we allow someone who has been a theif from birth to rob from anyone he wants simply because he likes it? Imagine what we could get away with if we justified our every bad accion or decision with "well, sorry but i was born that way." We all have desires to sin, but those who are happy are those who learn to control their appetites and passions. So kari, you're right, being gay is NOT a sin. people don't have to repent for how they feel or how they were born, but if they choose to act on those desires it IS a sin.

Stealing harms society because it creates a victim. The same goes for rape and murder. Who is the victim of two women falling in love with each other? I know many gay and lesbian couples that are just like any other. They pay bills, shop for groceries, and vote in November. The other things you listed are wrong and can be proven wrong by the fact that people are harmed. I see no one being harmed by two people loving each other.

First off, I would NEVER equate rape or murder with being gay. Apples and oranges. No, apples and something not even remotely similar--airplanes. Even if you believe being gay is a sin, to compare loving someone of the same gender to MURDER is very offensive. And thank you Taylor for pointing out my fallacy--I will clarify. (And I apologize because this might come off as an attack. This is not my intent. I simply want to have a discussion about a subject I feel passionately about). There is a distinction between identity and action, this is true. But telling someone that they must never act upon inherent desires/inclinations surrounds their identity with shame anyway. They feel guilty for desires they cannot control. Whether or not you brand their identity as a sin (versus acting on it), they WILL feel as if God somehow loves them less. Many churches also claim that they treat gay individuals with love and respect, but then tell them they must never act upon their identity. They accept that these individuals did not choose their identity, but tell them they must remain celibate their entire lives (or, choose to marry a person of a gender they are not attracted to). Imagine telling your daughter she can never marry the person she loves most in this world. Imagine telling her she can never raise a family with this person. She will not get into the celestial kingdom because of a factor she cannot control. She cannot get married in the Temple or ever have the wedding she has dreamed of. She has done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve this, but she is denied these things anyway. Better yet, imagine yourself, not being able to be the person that you are. Imagine having to be alone your entire life because you were born with what is referred to as a "weakness" that you can never overcome. I don't think of that as love or respect. I think of it as oppression.

We tend to lock people who murder and tape up in prison or Psychiatric hospitals depending on the case, but we don't lock or stone gays anymore cause this isn't the old days where we stuff to someone, cause we don't like the thing they do and isn't someone that hurts someone else. Raping and killing someone. That's hurting someone else. Two people of the same gender being together that's between them and no one else has a right to tell them it. Not even with in the last 50 years did we grant couples of separate race the right to marry, but we saw that was wrong so we changed it, as were changing same sex marriage. Churches do have every single right to ban it within their own thing, but not to tell others that it can and can't be there. The US and the rest of the world change with times as we see what is right, and were starting to see giving people of the same gender who are in love the right to marry is the right thing to do. It doesn't change who you are as a person, and if it really hurts you that much to see they are plenty of places in the world that still won't have it, or how we have all the old people today who make racist comments who never changes with the times, we'll have plenty like that with the same sex thing.

Ps: I find it highly insulting that you put me on the same level as a child molester and a murderer simply because I am openly gay and go on dates with men. I'm not a monster. I'm not a killer. I'm not a rapist. I'm not the devil. I'm a human being.

I need to agree with Benson there. I was sexually abused as a kid as were a few of the other kids from where I grew up, by an older kid in the same church as us who still goes to the same church. Then there's a few good friends and family members of mine who are openly gay. Some have been with the same partner since before I was born. Longer than a lot of marriages I know some even being in the Temple, that say you'll be together forever. Another good friend of mine, served the US army defended his country and he's gay. Is he just a murderer for all the people he helped save, cause he loves men or women?

OH BOY OH BOY! Another one of these posts!
http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/jesus-eating-popcorn-gif.gif

S, you are entitled to your beliefs, but please find a new argument for your anti-gay-marriage sentiments other than the old, 'if they were born that way, then shouldn't rape (or necrophilia, bestiality, child molestation, or marrying toasters) be allowed?!!?!' In rape there are not two consenting parties. In necrophilia, a corpse cannot consent. In bestiality an animal cannot consent. A child cannot consent. A toaster cannot consent. Two adults (heterosexual or homosexual) can legally consent.

This is not to say you have to agree with gay-marriage, but please avoid use the 'child molestation' comparison. No one likes to be compared to child molesters, especially when the comparison is wrong.)

I repeat: This is NOT an Anti-Gay-Marriage post. Nor is it an anti-rape post. Nor an anti-drug post. Nor is it an anti-freedom post. It was simply a post to draw attention to the fact that we as a country (and as a world) are neglecting to pay attention to History's past mistakes. And if we don't learn from them, we will experience similar difficulties. Destruction. Only time will tell, but I am absolutely sure that destruction, terrorist attacks, economical collapse, major government failures, and other such tragedies are imminent. I lived in Mexico for the past 2 years, in a country where drugs, violence, rape, sex, homosexuality, abortion, and other such things are rampant. And how was life there? If you walk on the street after 10pm, you likely get shot. The government is run by drug lords. The average citizen in terrified of any government official or police officer. Their elections are rigged. Their rights are rarely protected. Their courts are unfair. You see bribes all over the place. Well, I love Mexico and the Mexican people, but I do NOT want my country run that way. Chaos. Run by drug Lords. Run by violence and terror. I enjoy freedom, but unless we live by moral principles (whether you are mormon, jew, buddist, Christian, athiest, it doesn't matter) we will experience similar declines in living conditions. That is the STORY of HISTORY. Ever heard of Pompeii and Mt. Vesuvius? Why was it destroyed? They discovered in Pompeii that there were tons of brothels, lots of vices, pornography, etc. Why were Soddom and Gomorrah destroyed? Similar reasons.(And to say the bible has no significance from a historical standpoint is ridiculous. Moses is just an imaginary caracter? Well then, so is Ghandi. And so is Aristotle. And so is Albert Einstein. NO! Jesus is a real person, as is Moses, as is Abraham. Jerusalem is a REAL place. As are Soddom and Gomorrah. Whether you accept them as prophets is your choice, but to say it has no historical significance is ridiculous). What about when God destroyed the world with a flood killing everyone but Noah and his family? Why did he do that? Because of their wickedness. So we can learn from history, or we can ignore it. THAT is what this post is about. Learning from the mistakes of others. If you choose not to, great, that is YOUR decision. And i respect it. I have been taught different things and have been warned. Maybe some of you never have been warned or taught, and it is my responsibility to share what I believe (just as each and every one of you has). This is by no means a post to try to convert everyone to Mormonism or to force anyone to accept my beliefs. Because we all know that will NEVER happen. But now we've been warned...

If you want to learn from history, look at the fall of the Roman Empire and how it was the strongest in the world until a new religion (Christianity) spread. If you want to learn from history, look at the hundreds of thousands of innocent people slaughtered by Christians in the crusades. If you want to learn from history, look at US history from less than 200 years ago when the United States literally went to war against Mormons. If you want to learn from history, look at how Hitler called himself a Christian. If you want to learn from history, look at how science (not religion) cured countless diseases that used to plague the world (ranging from smallpox to polio). If you want to learn from history, look at how popular vote (not Christian doctrine) destroyed anti-miscegenation laws and removed the injustice of barring interracial couples the right to marry. The Bible tells me how to appropriately treat my slaves and how to keep a woman subservient to men. I don't want a nation based on those scriptures; I want one based on democratic vote and thought. And society is evolving to the point where we are learning to be more tolerant of diverse religions, races, sexualities, genders, disabilities, and so on. The US is not a mono-religious entity. And the "morality" that you espouse, such as condemning homosexuality, is part of your church. But many churches, including Methodists, Unitarians, Buddhists, Hindus, Anglicans, and so on have no moral issue with homosexuality. By you claiming that two people loving each other is as immoral as rape is an insult to every single person that doesn't share your perception of "morality." You cannot create federal laws based on a single church's interpretation of morality. Laws are up to popular vote. And popular vote these days is in support of same-sex marriage, but is still against rape (for the reason listed previously about LGBTQ couples having consent, no victims, etc). I'm fairly certain we all agree that rape and molestation are crimes that are exceptionally harmful and definitely need to be prevented because, on utilitarian terms, we can see the damage they cause. Being a member of the LGBTQ minority does not. Period.

L.F.D.

 

[R2J]

I agree that because of laws Church and State are separate

Just gonna post on this one, how are Church and State separated? Considering politics are in laws and Religion is in Politics

 

[Profesco]

Here is the full thing as of now, changed the quots to the first letters of each person' name other than my own posts.

L.F.D.

Well, that's an argument we've all seen before. It's the stock-and-trade "my religion tells everybody what to do whether they believe in it or not" argument of the fundamentalist. It's actually part of the reason many people become atheists: we realize how (no easier way to say it) plainly stupid that argument is, and we further hope never to become like the guy using it.

There isn't much we can say to such a person, because they've already forfeited the common ground of reason that has to underlie sensible communication. All we can do is ignore such arguments while we work to solve real problems, and when those folks decide they'd like to come sit at the grown-up's table without petulance and fairy tales, they're more than welcome.

The guy who keeps plugging Canada was kind of funny, though.

 

[Moonlight Amaryllis]

How do you think religion will be viewed in the next 50 years?

I don't think fifty years is enough time for any proper change. Even if the views hypothetically "change", they really aren't. I mean, laws have changed to allow fairness and equality to the female, colored, and "queerly" sexual oriented. However, these people are still being shamed and mistreated for those "flaws" today, despite how long the change has been around. Even if religon becomes "less important" or "less influential" in fifty years time, there will still be many people who will reject the change given to them for the better and ultimately keep things the same as they were.

(Was I rambling?)

 

[Schade]

How do you think religion will be viewed in the next 50 years?

That's difficult to say, but I personally think that it will be pretty much alike how it is today, maybe a bit more secularizated (That's a Word right? roughly translated from the Norwegian Word meaning that religion gradually lose its 'Power' in the society)

 

[Darato]

New Topic

If you had to chose a Religion what would it be and why?

I'd go with one that smokes weed all day, or Catholic since it's one that holds a lot of ground

L.F.D.

 

[Profesco]

I'd go with one that smokes weed all day, or Catholic since it's one that holds a lot of ground

Hmm. Both inadvisable choices, if you ask me. Though their juxtaposition gives us pause to consider the amusement that Catholic praxis arguably causes more harm than does marijuana.

New Topic

If you had to chose a Religion what would it be and why?

Jainism. Absurd unlikely-to-be-true beliefs aside, practicing Jainism strictly means almost absolute non-violence, including against insects and even microorganisms. I could believe some of the most crazy things human imagination has ever feverishly composed, but if my real-world actions were all respectful and geared toward allowing other creatures to live peacefully and free of harm, I wouldn't be a problem for anyone.

Edit: Maybe Quaker, actually.



On a different note, here's a story that makes me feel guilty. Guilty, because on the one hand I want to laugh at these people but that would be kind of condescending, and on the other hand I want to feel pity for these people but that too would be condescending. In the end, what I end up feeling is that the real explanation is more entertaining than the religious one.

 

[Moonlight Amaryllis]

If you had to choose a Religion what would it be and why?

I'm not too knowledgeable on religion, but if Buddhism counts, then Buddhism. You just try to be happy through peace.

If you had to chose a Religion what would it be and why?

I'd go with one that smokes weed all day, or Catholic since it's one that holds a lot of ground

L.F.D.

I don't believe there is a religion that exists like that, Darato.

On a different note, here's a story that makes me feel guilty. Guilty, because on the one hand I want to laugh at these people but that would be kind of condescending, and on the other hand I want to feel pity for these people but that too would be condescending. In the end, what I end up feeling is that the real explanation is more entertaining than the religious one.

Hahahahahaaaa...ha.

This will never not be funny, and yet it will not ever be funny.

Especially the obvious loathing and scorn the author displays in the article's attitude

 

[MastersOfMonsters]

Sigh, why are religious people so damn hard to talk to. You can't argue with them cuz' they have already decided they won. -__-

Oh, religion? I would never wanna pick one, but if I had to... um... I don't know of that many. I honestly can't answer, sorry.

 

[Darato]

Hmm. Both inadvisable choices, if you ask me. Though their juxtaposition gives us pause to consider the amusement that Catholic praxis arguably causes more harm than does marijuana.

Wouldn't want either one, but if you need one. Would want one of the higher power ones, and why not smoke weed?

I don't believe there is a religion that exists like that, Darato.

First Universal Church of Kantheism

Sigh, why are religious people so damn hard to talk to. You can't argue with them cuz' they have already decided they won. -__-

Oh, religion? I would never wanna pick one, but if I had to... um... I don't know of that many. I honestly can't answer, sorry.

Sadly some ar ejust like that, same with Atheist

L.F.D.

 

[MastersOfMonsters]

Well, of course many atheists are a real pain, too (and of course many religious people aren't like that). I just happen to get inti arguments with religious ones very often (and I don't even try...)

It would be nice if all people just realises that, if you are a kind person, it doesn't matter what you Believe in. But most don't.

EDIT: Ah, and I just realised I got 'Bad Rep' from my previous comment... makes sense, I apologize to the one who did it. Thank you~

 

[Darato]

You shouldn't have to apologize for anything. This is a place to talk about this kind of stuff, the tittle alone says what's going on in here, and if people don't want to see it there free not to come in here

L.F.D.

 

[MastersOfMonsters]

Well, maybe, but I tend to be careful not to make anyone angry, and these kinds of topics usually causes that.. still, thank you~