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Aug 11th: XY&Z037 - The Finals! Ash VS Alan!!

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One side thinking Ash-Greninja can straight up beat Zard X because it came so close to winning when it was incomplete, yet fail to realize Zard X clearly got more powerful over that timespan too. The other side wanting Ash-Greninja to win it's greatest match by having everyone else weaken Zard-X while it's perfectly fine and in good health to finish it off... Dang, have standards been lowered?


Dman stated it best in the episode views... if you're happy with this outcome thus far, you're clearly not watching this show for Ash then.

Ash Greninja also had the handicap of an unmastered form and has been getting stronger, though. And it's clearly set up to beat Zard-X due to its losses to it, which combines with Alain needing character development and the 'rule of three' to provide the popular theory of A-G beating C-X.

Also, how is wanting to watch Ash's best battles an indicator of not watching the show for him? People shouldn't have to suffer through what would ultimately be curb stomp battles just because 'they watch the show for Ash'
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
One side thinking Ash-Greninja can straight up beat Zard X because it came so close to winning when it was incomplete, yet fail to realize Zard X clearly got more powerful over that timespan too. The other side wanting Ash-Greninja to win it's greatest match by having everyone else weaken Zard-X while it's perfectly fine and in good health to finish it off... Dang, have standards been lowered?


Dman stated it best in the episode views... if you're happy with this outcome thus far, you're clearly not watching this show for Ash then.

I don't think that first part is the case at all. For one thing, we have no real idea of how Megazard X is compared to those other trainers back when Ash fought him in XYZ 23, so we have no idea if he got stronger at all. As for Greninja, mastering its form gave quite the boost in strength and speed, but more than that, it's the evidence that Ash had closed the gap between XYZ 13 and XYZ 23 with the incomplete form alone. He was slaughtered in XYZ 13, but was gaining the clear upperhand in XYZ 23.

And why does happy =/= watching for Ash. Why should I be happy watching Ash fight battles he gains nothing from? I'm not going to argue number of battles or anything like that, but it's how much they matter for the character and their development, not how much they fight that should determine things. Fine for you to not be happy, 'cause that's your value system, but not everyone's is the same.
 

Joltik-Kid

Simply Fantastic ಠ_ಠ
Ash Greninja also had the handicap of an unmastered form and has been getting stronger, though. And it's clearly set up to beat Zard-X due to its losses to it, which combines with Alain needing character development and the 'rule of three' to provide the popular theory of A-G beating C-X.
First of there's no indication of that what so ever, Greninja didn't train to beat one singular opponent, but that's also stating Zard X cannot get any more powerful then it already is. Secondly, no one but the fans are saying Alain needs character development... It's like the biggest excuse I've seen to from the Ash is winning this league support crowd. The only quote we have from Alain is "I have to be the strongest! I will no longer lose to anyone!!" That sounds like pretty heavy determination for a good cause regardless of the means he takes to get there.

Also, how is wanting to watch Ash's best battles an indicator of not watching the show for him? People shouldn't have to suffer through what would ultimately be curb stomp battles just because 'they watch the show for Ash'
Because Ash never curbstomps his way up in the first place? Seeing him struggle a bit gives you more pleasure when (if) he ultimately wins the whole thing. I mean come on are you seriously telling me the Kanto, Johto, and Hoenn leagues sucked because Ash fought characters of the day instead of them skipping straight to his rivals?
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical optimist
First of there's no indication of that what so ever, Greninja didn't train to beat one singular opponent, but that's also stating Zard X cannot get any more powerful then it already is. Secondly, no one but the fans are saying Alain needs character development... It's like the biggest excuse I've seen to from the Ash is winning this league support crowd. The only quote we have from Alain is "I have to be the strongest! I will no longer lose to anyone!!" That sounds like pretty heavy determination for a good cause regardless of the means he takes to get there.


Because Ash never curbstomps his way up in the first place? Seeing him struggle a bit gives you more pleasure when (if) he ultimately wins the whole thing. I mean come on are you seriously telling me the Kanto, Johto, and Hoenn leagues sucked because Ash fought characters of the day instead of them skipping straight to his rivals?

cant believe you are trying to say that since im happy that I don't watch the show for Ash, that is one of the silliest things I've heard on this forum.
And just to point out, dman dustin usually has outrageous posts that no one agrees with lol except for a few randoms (never stop posting dman dustin, outrageous =/= bad)

honestly if you knew what kind of pics I had of Ash in my phone then you'd know I DEFINITELY watch it for him ;) (I pretend he's overage if you get my hint...) (edit: im jk theyre not that bad)
I don't get much pleasure of watching him struggle... seems a little grotesque.

No point in comparing the leagues since however well any of the other leagues did has NO effect on my enjoyment for this league. I'm just happy with how it went, I'm not letting the past episodes fog my vision for this league by expecting certain things to happen the way I want them too or the way I'm used too. I'm going to enjoy it for being the fricken league, which imo are the some of the best parts of all the seasons episodes.
 
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First of there's no indication of that what so ever, Greninja didn't train to beat one singular opponent, but that's also stating Zard X cannot get any more powerful then it already is. Secondly, no one but the fans are saying Alain needs character development... It's like the biggest excuse I've seen to from the Ash is winning this league support crowd. The only quote we have from Alain is "I have to be the strongest! I will no longer lose to anyone!!" That sounds like pretty heavy determination for a good cause regardless of the means he takes to get there.

Greninja was still getting stronger though, even if it wasn't just training to beat Charizard. And where did I say Charizard can't get stronger? I was just saying that Ash-Greninja has also grown. There's also no indication of Charizard getting stronger, either, seeing as the only time we saw it lose was against an Elite 4 member with a type advantage and a defensive 'mon, for all we know it hasn't gotten better at all.


Because Ash never curbstomps his way up in the first place?

First of there's no indication of that what so ever

We've seen Ash-Greninja smack the champion's ace around, and he seemingly started with it in at least one battle. Also, just because we've never seen it happen doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.


Seeing him struggle a bit gives you more pleasure when (if) he ultimately wins the whole thing.

Subjectivity

I mean come on are you seriously telling me the Kanto, Johto, and Hoenn leagues sucked because Ash fought characters of the day instead of them skipping straight to his rivals?

Uh, no, because Ash wasn't shown to have a Pokémon capable of dealing major damage up Lance's Dragonite, Steven's Metagross, or Cynthia's Garxhomp. It's a whole different story for XY.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
I just caught up on everything! If Ash wins or not, HE MADE IT TO THE FINALS! Yes! I do think he will win!
Have there been any new scans or summaries for this episode?

Nothing since PokeFan a little bit back. We probably won't have anything on this episode until the Wednesday before it airs with the VA list.
 
I think at least one of Alain's pokemon would take down two of Ash's pokemon before losing to the third. Thinking that it might be Metagross or Tyranitar.
 

Mr. Reloaded

All encompassing
Volcarona and Dragalge.

If we can't have the former then Seismitoad.
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
I would say both would be mega capable, but he has weavile so...

My picks would be Throh and Sylveon. Throh and Slowbro if Charizard counts as Gen 6
 

Mrs. Oreo

Banned
Kind of late, but I see that Alain owns a Tyranitar, which is ok with me since I wanted him to own one back when the mega evolution specials aired any ways hee hee. As for Weavile, that choice of pokemon kind of took me by surprise cuz I didn't think Alain would own one since it's small compared to his other pokemon.
 

Vivieeeeeee

Active Member
Really hyped for Ash vs Alain. Aside from the next released title, I'm putting my money on Ash. The scans hinted at that. Alain's quote was "I will not lose to anyone" and he still has not realized the importance of friends and bonding with Pokemon. Letting Alain beat Ash for the third time in a row, while he only hungers for power, would be really uncharacteristic of the series in general, and goes against the main theme.
 

Joltik-Kid

Simply Fantastic ಠ_ಠ
Greninja was still getting stronger though, even if it wasn't just training to beat Charizard. And where did I say Charizard can't get stronger? I was just saying that Ash-Greninja has also grown. There's also no indication of Charizard getting stronger, either, seeing as the only time we saw it lose was against an Elite 4 member with a type advantage and a defensive 'mon, for all we know it hasn't gotten better at all.
Not the argument I was making there. Yes, Greninja has gotten stronger, no doubt... but that same semi-perfected form couldn't even beat Wulfric's Avalugg. Say what you will that Ash was trying too hard to win... same happened vs Alain, only difference was Ash ddin't feel Greninja's pain vs Avalugg where he did vs Zard X. And we have seen Zard improve, it went from being unable to take on The Legends of Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre, to being able to match 50% Zygarde. Not to mention he went from unable to stand up to Siebold's Mega Blastoise, to taking hits from Steven's Metagross, to beating Malvia's Mega Houndoom.

We've seen Ash-Greninja smack the champion's ace around, and he seemingly started with it in at least one battle. Also, just because we've never seen it happen doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.
We saw Diathia get caught off guard by it's power... bet you had she known about it, the tables would have been different. Unless you think she's a fairly weak champion

Subjectivity
Agreed, so are you : )

Uh, no, because Ash wasn't shown to have a Pokémon capable of dealing major damage up Lance's Dragonite, Steven's Metagross, or Cynthia's Garxhomp. It's a whole different story for XY.
That's because Ash never fought any of those Champions himself anyway... in fact Steven never showed off Metagross till ME Special II. You seem to be undermining Charizard's, Sceptile's, and Infernape's power anyway. Zard and Sceptile are known Legend beaters (along with Pikachu)... Greninja has a long way to go to match them.
 

andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
Really hyped for Ash vs Alain. Aside from the next released title, I'm putting my money on Ash. The scans hinted at that. Alain's quote was "I will not lose to anyone" and he still has not realized the importance of friends and bonding with Pokemon. Letting Alain beat Ash for the third time in a row, while he only hungers for power, would be really uncharacteristic of the series in general, and goes against the main theme.

Exactly. Why should Ash get knocked down a peg if he loses sight of his dreams, yet Alain gets off Scot free. This past episode also hints at Alain's character flaws. After he won, he just walked away, like Paul would do. He didn't even acknowledge his opponent for a good match. It would take Ash to wake him up to his problems, even if Ash isn't aware of it.
 

Domok

Well-Known Member
Not the argument I was making there. Yes, Greninja has gotten stronger, no doubt... but that same semi-perfected form couldn't even beat Wulfric's Avalugg. Say what you will that Ash was trying too hard to win... same happened vs Alain, only difference was Ash ddin't feel Greninja's pain vs Avalugg where he did vs Zard X. And we have seen Zard improve, it went from being unable to take on The Legends of Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre, to being able to match 50% Zygarde. Not to mention he went from unable to stand up to Siebold's Mega Blastoise, to taking hits from Steven's Metagross, to beating Malvia's Mega Houndoom.


We saw Diathia get caught off guard by it's power... bet you had she known about it, the tables would have been different. Unless you think she's a fairly weak champion


Agreed, so are you : )


That's because Ash never fought any of those Champions himself anyway... in fact Steven never showed off Metagross till ME Special II. You seem to be undermining Charizard's, Sceptile's, and Infernape's power anyway. Zard and Sceptile are known Legend beaters (along with Pikachu)... Greninja has a long way to go to match them.

You aren't seeing the point dude. It's that in Greninjas incomplete form it was still overpowering Mega Charizard X. Greninja is now complete which means it is also stronger. The mega evolution specials are before he meets Ash which makes those points irrevelant. No matter how much Stronger Charizard X is,Greninaj has also gotten much stronger.
 

andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
Not the argument I was making there. Yes, Greninja has gotten stronger, no doubt... but that same semi-perfected form couldn't even beat Wulfric's Avalugg. Say what you will that Ash was trying too hard to win... same happened vs Alain, only difference was Ash ddin't feel Greninja's pain vs Avalugg where he did vs Zard X. And we have seen Zard improve, it went from being unable to take on The Legends of Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre, to being able to match 50% Zygarde. Not to mention he went from unable to stand up to Siebold's Mega Blastoise, to taking hits from Steven's Metagross, to beating Malvia's Mega Houndoom.


We saw Diathia get caught off guard by it's power... bet you had she known about it, the tables would have been different. Unless you think she's a fairly weak champion


Agreed, so are you : )


That's because Ash never fought any of those Champions himself anyway... in fact Steven never showed off Metagross till ME Special II. You seem to be undermining Charizard's, Sceptile's, and Infernape's power anyway. Zard and Sceptile are known Legend beaters (along with Pikachu)... Greninja has a long way to go to match them.

Actually, Ash did feel Greninja pain in his battle against Wulfric's Avalugg.
 

Joltik-Kid

Simply Fantastic ಠ_ಠ
You aren't seeing the point dude. It's that in Greninjas incomplete form it was still overpowering Mega Charizard X. Greninja is now complete which means it is also stronger. The mega evolution specials are before he meets Ash which makes those points irrevelant. No matter how much Stronger Charizard X is,Greninaj has also gotten much stronger.
Interesting that your telling me I'm missing the point when I clearly stated "Greninja has gotten stronger, no doubt"... But your seriously telling me Wulfric's Avalugg is more powerful then Alain's Charizard? Because that's a point you seem to have missed yourself : )

Actually, Ash did feel Greninja pain in his battle against Wulfric's Avalugg.
I did forget that, yeah
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Ash was trying to hard and it cost him the first match against Wulfric, heck he even conked out, not to mention that with Ice Body up Avalugg proved to be quite the effective tank as it took down three guys, yet in the rematch without it, it only got Pikachu and got crushed by Talonflame.

Regardless power alone does not dictate a fight's outcome.
 
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