Aug 18th: XY&Z038 - Kalos League Victory! Ash's Ultimate Match!!

[ShadowForce720]

I've got a theory about that actually. I think Alain is going to take advantage of Ash-Greninja's limited timespan and Ash's exhaustion. He'll probably plan to crush Ash's Goodra and Pikachu with Zard X, then force Greninja to use the last of its energy to take on Zard X so it can't battle Bisharp at all.

Except it's the preview has already confirmed that by the time Greninja faces Charizard, Bisharp will be already knocked out, because we get to see the scoreboard for the Greninja vs Charizard fight and it shows all the other pokemon on both sides are already knocked out by the time those 2 fight.

 

[Greneuliest808]

I've got a theory about that actually. I think Alain is going to take advantage of Ash-Greninja's limited timespan and Ash's exhaustion. He'll probably plan to crush Ash's Goodra and Pikachu with Zard X, then force Greninja to use the last of its energy to take on Zard X so it can't battle Bisharp at all.

That is a pretty good theory. Well the question is will the Ash-Greninja transformation happen against Bisharp if Goodra falls to Bisharp? It's certainly possible. And its definitely for sure that Ash and Greninja are going to be one. One disadvantage that I see in the Ash-Greninja transformation is how long the trainer can exert the power within the bond phenomenon. I think when Ash-Greninja are down to the last breath, that is when that orange destructo disk comes in. I think that would be the decider of this finals climax.

Except it's the preview has already confirmed that by the time Greninja faces Charizard, Bisharp will be already knocked out, because we get to see the scoreboard for the Greninja vs Charizard fight and it shows all the other pokemon on both sides are already knocked out by the time those 2 fight.

I'll probably wait until the second preview come out (although it may not show anything new) and see if there is anything interesting. Sure, the deciding battle is going to come down Greninja vs Charizard since the summary did say that the winner is going to come down to Ash and Alain's last Pokemon.

 

[Epicocity]

I will admit, the old series was weird in terms of how many moves a Pokemon can make.

The beginning of the series just had weirdness in general. A lot of stuff that was just dropped later: referring to levels, Ash not being a chaste hero, the bullcrap with Badges given away like candy, the sleep rule in the Indigo League, etc. A Pokemon knowing more than four moves is like small potatoes comparatively.

Anyway, at least now we know (or can start to presume) why the Flare arc and the League are intertwined: Lysandre wants all eyes on him and his plan for...whatever his plan is. He wants everyone watching it.

 

[Joltik-Kid]

Ash literally can't try Bide "strategy" for Goodra against Bisharp and none of its actual offensive moves are doing major damage against Bisharp (its the near perfect checkmate for that match-up). Anyways predicting Pikachu KOd by Zard, Zard is then recalled for Bisharp after Goodra shows up, Bisharp KOs Goodra, gets finished by A-Greninja, Zard Megas it up and they fight,

I don't think Greninja Ash's up until after Zard Warp Digivolves Mega Evolves

 

[Epicocity]

That is a pretty good theory. Well the question is will the Ash-Greninja transformation happen against Bisharp if Goodra falls to Bisharp? It's certainly possible. And its definitely for sure that Ash and Greninja are going to be one. One disadvantage that I see in the Ash-Greninja transformation is how long the trainer can exert the power within the bond phenomenon. I think when Ash-Greninja are down to the last breath, th is when that orange destructo disk comes in. I think that would be the decider of this finals climax.

Do we have any definitive proof since Ash mastered it that there is a time limit? Because it would seem not. Hell, as long as they don't take hits, Ash doesn't even seem exhausted after using it anymore. So, I kinda think that's a moot point, no? I mean, it'll last as long as it needs to for the battle to see a conclusion.

 

[Greneuliest808]

Do we have any definitive proof since Ash mastered it that there is a time limit? Because it would seem not. Hell, as long as they don't take hits, Ash doesn't even seem exhausted after using it anymore. So, I kinda think that's a moot point, no? I mean, it'll last as long as it needs to for the battle to see a conclusion.

I think since Ash and Greninja mastered the Ash-Greninja form, Ash can easily manage the hits Greninja takes and has no problem feeling exhausted. Ash-Greninja never lost since mastering the transformation. Ash trusts Greninja to become stronger and vice versa. In terms of that transformation, I don't think there is a time limit. It will last as long as Ash and Greninja trust in each other in terms of selflessness, bravery, strength, and flexibility.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

I heard about OP trainers, but that is just... What the hell?

That's one of Ash most memorable battles and the only league he has won up till now outside of the Frontier challenge.

It was cool man, it's the equivalent of Paul before Paul happened, the first 6v6.

It's HISTORY!

 

[Greneuliest808]

The beginning of the series just had weirdness in general. A lot of stuff that was just dropped later: referring to levels, Ash not being a chaste hero, the bullcrap with Badges given away like candy, the sleep rule in the Indigo League, etc. A Pokemon knowing more than four moves is like small potatoes comparatively.

Anyway, at least now we know (or can start to presume) why the Flare arc and the League are intertwined: Lysandre wants all eyes on him and his plan for...whatever his plan is. He wants everyone watching it.

Yeah, definitely, the Kanto Series was a head scratcher for me. It's like telling us that everything comes easy.

Lysandre definitely wants his plan to work and for everyone to see it...depending on his motive in his plan.

 

[NegaiFreak]

I think since Ash and Greninja mastered the Ash-Greninja form, Ash can easily manage the hits Greninja takes and has no problem feeling exhausted. Ash-Greninja never lost since mastering the transformation. Ash trusts Greninja to become stronger and vice versa. In terms of that transformation, I don't think there is a time limit. It will last as long as Ash and Greninja trust in each other in terms of selflessness, bravery, strength, and flexibility.

And my goodness, have they trusted each other. Taking out Mega Evolutions that Greninja had DISADVANTAGES to and competing with powerful Megas like Charizard and Gardevoir on even grounds. I feel like everyone overlooks these facts because... they don't want to end up disappointed.

Seriously, would the writers give the trophy to a guy who doesn't even want to be champion? I highly, HIGHLY doubt it.

 

[Epicocity]

And my goodness, have they trusted each other. Taking out Mega Evolutions that Greninja had DISADVANTAGES to and competing with powerful Megas like Charizard and Gardevoir on even grounds. I feel like everyone overlooks these facts because... they don't want to end up disappointed.

Seriously, would the writers give the trophy to a guy who doesn't even want to be champion? I highly, HIGHLY doubt it.

Essentially, if it lasts as long as their purpose is shared, it can last forever.

Looking at the subtleties this battle, and maybe it's me reading into it, but you can see how, I want to say unfit, Alain is to be winner of this. For one thing, even Sycamore mentions he's holding onto his burdens instead of outright sharing them. But this is negligible. It's the other subtleties: Ash hasn't grown desperate at anything surprising while Alain has; Alain, in a lot of still shots, isn't smiling, but Ash is; Ash is consistently thanking his Pokemon after they battle, but Alain isn't. I could probably go on...

 

[Disaster_Lord]

Essentially, if it lasts as long as their purpose is shared, it can last forever.

Looking at the subtleties this battle, and maybe it's me reading into it, but you can see how, I want to say unfit, Alain is to be winner of this. For one thing, even Sycamore mentions he's holding onto his burdens instead of outright sharing them. But this is negligible. It's the other subtleties: Ash hasn't grown desperate at anything surprising while Alain has; Alain, in a lot of still shots, isn't smiling, but Ash is; Ash is consistently thanking his Pokemon after they battle, but Alain isn't. I could probably go on...

The hawlucha and Noivern moment was awesome at portraying that. He walked up to the stage along hawlucha to take care and congratulate the fallguy!

That's great with the thematic we have going.

 

[Greneuliest808]

And my goodness, have they trusted each other. Taking out Mega Evolutions that Greninja had DISADVANTAGES to and competing with powerful Megas like Charizard and Gardevoir on even grounds. I feel like everyone overlooks these facts because... they don't want to end up disappointed.

Seriously, would the writers give the trophy to a guy who doesn't even want to be champion? I highly, HIGHLY doubt it.

Definitely. Greninja does have what it takes to beat megas. Why would the producers and writers decide to name Alain the champion if all he has ever done is try to overpower everyone? The difference between Alain and Ash is that Alain depends on strength and power to win, but believes in them sometime. Ash believes in his Pokemon because he trusts, supports them, and treats them like close friends, win or lose. That is what it takes to be a true trainer, and Ash definitely showed that.

Essentially, if it lasts as long as their purpose is shared, it can last forever.

Looking at the subtleties this battle, and maybe it's me reading into it, but you can see how, I want to say unfit, Alain is to be winner of this. For one thing, even Sycamore mentions he's holding onto his burdens instead of outright sharing them. But this is negligible. It's the other subtleties: Ash hasn't grown desperate at anything surprising while Alain has; Alain, in a lot of still shots, isn't smiling, but Ash is; Ash is consistently thanking his Pokemon after they battle, but Alain isn't. I could probably go on...

The thing that I noticed about Alain is that he is only enthusiastic on battling when he battles Ash, but gives a cold shoulder to his Pokemon after they are unable to battle. For the others, he just thinks that they're a waste of time (poor Trevor though).

 

[Epicocity]

Definitely. Greninja does have what it takes to beat megas. Why would the producers and writers decide to name Alain the champion if all he has ever done is try to overpower everyone? The difference between Alain and Ash is that Alain depends on strength and power to win, but believes in them sometime. Ash believes in his Pokemon because he trusts, supports them, and treats them like close friends, win or lose. That is what it takes to be a true trainer, and Ash definitely showed that.



The thing that I noticed about Alain is that he is only enthusiastic on battling when he battles Ash. For the others, he just thinks that they're a waste of time (poor Trevor though).

Well, yeah. And that's not Champion material. I mean, even look at Cynthia. By all rights, she could have just brushed Paul off back in the DP days, but she didn't, because she respected his earnestness. Alain, as far as we can tell, considers most others beneath him. He only wants to beat Ash to prove to himself that he's the strongest. He doesn't even care about proving it to anyone else, or having that win with his Pokemon. He's not working as a team with them, while Ash is. That's a large part of the reason I was okay with Noivern's fall, because it showcased this family bond and that they draw strength from one another's accomplishments and defeats.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

The hawlucha and Noivern moment was awesome at portraying that. He walked up to the stage along hawlucha to take care and congratulate the fallguy!

That's great with the thematic we have going.

Shameless self quote but Epicocity is really right about this.

Ash has shown a lot of ideal traits and respect that Alain lacks.

Heck even Tobias was polite and congratulated Ash Gible! He wasn't rude either to the other guys who lost as far as we know.

 

[yuoke]

It's pretty clear that alain really still has more to go before being worthy of being a champion. It takes more than raw power. Ash built his bond with ash greninja from the ground up the second he saved froakie after froakie sacrificed himself for pikachu at the very beginning. The entire thing is about how great their bond is and ash's in general with his pokemon.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

It's pretty clear that alain really still has more to go before being worthy of being a champion. It takes more than raw power. Ash built his bond with ash greninja from the ground up the second he saved froakie after froakie sacrificed himself for pikachu at the very beginning. The entire thing is about how great their bond is and ash's in general with his pokemon.

At least the ones from this region, some of us are a bit salty about no reserves, but it kinda works for this narrative since he wants the team with the most synergy(according to the writers) to fight in this league.

 

[Epicocity]

At least the ones from this region, some of us are a bit salty about no reserves, but it kinda works for this narrative since he wants the team with the most synergy(according to the writers) to fight in this league.

I honestly think going no reserves was the better route. As much as everyone touts Sinnoh for it (and I loved Sinnoh), it actually was kinda pointless. Other than an evolution (which could have happened elsewhere), and 3 reserves showcasing new moves or being a boss against a legendary...they added nothing. Instead, it could have been used for Torterra to get some wins, or Staraptor to get more. Not saying I hated on it, but it didn't give quite the benefit that most make it out to be.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

I honestly think going no reserves was the better route. As much as everyone touts Sinnoh for it (and I loved Sinnoh), it actually was kinda pointless. Other than an evolution (which could have happened elsewhere), and 3 reserves showcasing new moves or being a boss against a legendary...they added nothing. Instead, it could have been used for Torterra to get some wins, or Staraptor to get more. Not saying I hated on it, but it didn't give quite the benefit that most make it out to be.

Sinnoh league was fanservice central.

But it worked badly for the regional team that was already struggling with dawn screen time and plot line overload along the "showcase everything but make sure there are fallguy so they come as strong" syndrome.

DP team could have really used more screen time other than Ape. Buizel, Torterra and even Raptor took a huge hit on the last quarter of DP.

 

[Greneuliest808]

It's pretty clear that alain really still has more to go before being worthy of being a champion. It takes more than raw power. Ash built his bond with ash greninja from the ground up the second he saved froakie after froakie sacrificed himself for pikachu at the very beginning. The entire thing is about how great their bond is and ash's in general with his pokemon.

Alain definitely does have a long way to go. He needs to build trust with his Pokemon and treat them like close friends, just like Ash does.

Shameless self quote but Epicocity is really right about this.

Ash has shown a lot of ideal traits and respect that Alain lacks.

Heck even Tobias was polite and congratulated Ash Gible! He wasn't rude either to the other guys who lost as far as we know.

Hey, at least Tobias is classy after Ash managed to take down two of his Pokemon (both legendaries). I definitely agree with you about how Ash has those ideal traits that Alain does not.

Well, yeah. And that's not Champion material. I mean, even look at Cynthia. By all rights, she could have just brushed Paul off back in the DP days, but she didn't, because she respected his earnestness. Alain, as far as we can tell, considers most others beneath him. He only wants to beat Ash to prove to himself that he's the strongest. He doesn't even care about proving it to anyone else, or having that win with his Pokemon. He's not working as a team with them, while Ash is. That's a large part of the reason I was okay with Noivern's fall, because it showcased this family bond and that they draw strength from one another's accomplishments and defeats.

Oh definitely. Alain is like showing us that his ego is above everyone else. Cynthia at least accepted to battle Paul because of Paul's enthusiasm to battle, and you're right about his earnestness. Ash and his training is all about being close, bonding like friends and family, being selflessness, and trusting each other. When Ash had trouble mastering the Ash-Greninja form, he relied on only getting stronger (as in that raw power), which is why Greninja lost to Alain (1st time), Sawyer (battle prior to league), and Wulfric (1st attempt) and when Ash passed out twice. Ash and Greninja mastered the transformation because he went back to his own roots. Alain's team is like you have to deal with multiple egos that just don't mesh together. For Ash's team, it's all good there because of that close bond and trust with the authentic feel of being part of the family.

 

[yuoke]

Sinnoh league was fanservice central.

But it worked badly for the regional team that was already struggling with dawn screen time and plot line overload along the "showcase everything but make sure there are fallguy so they come as strong" syndrome.

DP team could have really used more screen time other than Ape. Buizel, Torterra and even Raptor took a huge hit on the last quarter of DP.

I mean I guess you could say xy paralleled that with greninja-infernape, while the others took a hit. Goodra having a 15 episode arc for itself also didnt help.