Aug 18th: XY&Z038 - Kalos League Victory! Ash's Ultimate Match!!

[_Dog]

Fixed for accuracy.

You didn't watch the anime, did you? Ash-Greninja has lost numerous times.

Why not let Ash win the darn thing for once? It's been twenty years.

 

[Epicocity]

It can go either way. Either it's the start of Alain's redemption or it's the slippery slope of Alain's descent to antagonism before his little realization. I'm just using the slippery slope scenario to describe how Alain losing could actually increase tension instead of reducing it.

While winning the League would cement his idea of strength, it really doesn't do a whole lot. The reason? Alain has been on a winning streak and he doesn't have a fierce enough rivalry with Ash on ideological terms to prove anything (unlike say, Paul vs Ash). If he defeats Ash, the only thing he'll get is a worthy opponent to battle but just another victory in a long line of victories. But if he loses to Ash, he might have to ponder about his first loss and Team Flare could easily pressure him into not accepting the defeat (as it would imply weakness). To me, I see more benefits of Alain losing than I do with Alain winning.

I agree with most of this. My only thought is that I could also see Lysandre abandoning Alain once his task is done with collecting ME Energy, and him losing. I only think he kept him around because he needed him in the long run, but with a finalization of plans...Heck, I could see Ash-Greninja defeating Megazard X as being the last ME Energy needed to make the project work, or whatever, like Lysandre planned on him losing the entire time. He's certainly crafty enough.

 

[andrewscott48209]

I agree with most of this. My only thught is that I could also see Lysandre abandoning Alain once his task is done with collecting ME Energy, and him losing. I only think he kept him around because he needed him in the long run, but with a finalization of plans...Heck, I could see Ash-Greninja defeating Megazard X as being the last ME Energy needed to make the project work, or whatever, like Lysandre planned on him losing the entire time. He's certainly crafty enough.

That would be a nice plot twist. But how will Ash react when he finds out that Alain had worked for Team Flare?

 

[Epicocity]

That would be a nice plot twist. But how will Ash react when he finds out that Alain had worked for Team Flare?

This is Ash we're talking about, right? He forgave Paul. He forgives TRio on a weekly basis half the time. I hardly think a guy getting duped is going to upset him for too long or too much.

 

[andrewscott48209]

This is Ash we're talking about, right? He forgave Paul. He forgives TRio on a weekly basis half the time. I hardly think a guy getting duped is going to upset him for too long or too much.

It took some time for him to forgive Paul, and he probably never forgave Pokemon Hunter J.

 

[Epicocity]

It took some time for him to forgive Paul, and he probably never forgave Pokemon Hunter J.

True, but Alain is hardly a bad guy. Walking a bad road, sure. But he's never once thought he was the bad guy. He thought it was all for the greater good. The guy's just gullible and manipulated by someone far more mentally capable than he is. To that end, I can't see Ash not forgiving him when everything goes down.

 

[andrewscott48209]

True, but Alain is hardly a bad guy. Walking a bad road, sure. But he's never once thought he was the bad guy. He thought it was all for the greater good. The guy's just gullible and manipulated by someone far more mentally capable than he is. To that end, I can't see Ash not forgiving him when everything goes down.

That's true. I was nearly giving an example with I and making a point with Paul.

 

[Joltik-Kid]

I'm kinda shocked people would blindly accept Ash winning this league out of pity just because he lost to Sawyer and Alain before... not to mention those are the only 2 fights we get to see him battle in.

Alain isn't your typical Gary/Paul/Trip character type rival, he actually doesn't care to point out whether he's better then Ash or not nor does he think Ash is weak. Ash doesn't have to prove anything to him by beating him, because Alain has already admitted that Ash is a great trainer. That's the only reason Ash is ever guaranteed a win against a specific rival, because he has to prove something. All he's going to do in his battle with Alain is aim to win the League, which is basically a 50/50 crapshoot because there's no hidden motive behind it. "Oh but Greninja has to prove it's better then Charizard X" No it doesn't, not when it's already been established that no one thinks it's weak and that it's actually a formidable opponent.

 

[Goodbye Kalos]

This is probably a Trevor episode. Maybe he cheers Ash up with a battle after Ash lost to Sawyer in the semis.

 

[Mew2]

As to whether or not Ash wins, there are narrative reasons why it could do either way. In favor of Ash winning, it could show Alain that he has a lot to learn and that he needs more power if he is to be able to protect the ones he loves and wishes to help Mairin smile again. However, when he faces Ash, there will not be all that much battle tension since Ash has already beaten him once, he can do it again and if Alain gives him trouble because he's holding back, anyone could just go, 'c'mon Ash, he's not going to learn and you have more important things to worry about. Beat this punk and move on to the big guy, already!" Also, it may actually be easier to convince Alain that his path is wrong since Ash would actually have more power than him, as evidenced by the outcome of the previous battle. The only thing holding him back would be his mentality and wish to 'save' Alain.

On the other hand, if Alain beats Ash, while it won't show him that he has a lot to learn, Lysandre could reinforce that power is what is needed in order to save those he loves. He could make it so Z2 does something to help Chespie in order to show some progress, but that's just a stopgap measure and Team Flare needs more/something else on order for Chespie to actually be saved. That will not only make Alain more difficult to convince that his path with Team Flare is wrong since he actually has something worth fighting for (Mairin's smile and Chespie's life), it would make it more difficult for Ash to both beat him, as well as turn him to the good side since Alain has already fought and beat him, showing Alain that Ash's path is wrong since it won't get him what he wants and his path would. It would be up to Ash to show that Lysandre is lying to him and that will be difficult since that will mean having to go through Alain, and probably Malva as well; two Elite 4 level Trainers, one of who has already beaten Ash and what may well be his strongest Pokémon.

 

[Epicocity]

As to whether or not Ash wins, there are narrative reasons why it could do either way. In favor of Ash winning, it could show Alain that he has a lot to learn and that he needs more power if he is to be able to protect the ones he loves and wishes to help Mairin smile again. However, when he faces Ash, there will not be all that much battle tension since Ash has already beaten him once, he can do it again and if Alain gives him trouble because he's holding back, anyone could just go, 'c'mon Ash, he's not going to learn and you have more important things to worry about. Beat this punk and move on to the big guy, already!" Also, it may actually be easier to convince Alain that his path is wrong since Ash would actually have more power than him, as evidenced by the outcome of the previous battle. The only thing holding him back would be his mentality and wish to 'save' Alain.

On the other hand, if Alain beats Ash, while it won't show him that he has a lot to learn, Lysandre could reinforce that power is what is needed in order to save those he loves. He could make it so Z2 does something to help Chespie in order to show some progress, but that's just a stopgap measure and Team Flare needs more/something else on order for Chespie to actually be saved. That will not only make Alain more difficult to convince that his path with Team Flare is wrong since he actually has something worth fighting for (Mairin's smile and Chespie's life), it would make it more difficult for Ash to both beat him, as well as turn him to the good side since Alain has already fought and beat him, showing Alain that Ash's path is wrong since it won't get him what he wants and his path would. It would be up to Ash to show that Lysandre is lying to him and that will be difficult since that will mean having to go through Alain, and probably Malva as well; two Elite 4 level Trainers, one of who has already beaten Ash and what may well be his strongest Pokémon.

I disagree with this for the simple fact of, if Ash defeats Alain, who says they need to fight again? Because it shows him in the opening? One could argue that simply indicated they would battle, and it's happening at the League. I really can't see Alain being all gung ho about Team Flare attacking people. It's obvious that he's only loyal to Lysandre, and if Lysandre betrays him...well. Summing up: I don't think Ash and Alain need to battle a second time if Ash wins.

 

[Rohanator]

I'm kinda shocked people would blindly accept Ash winning this league out of pity just because he lost to Sawyer and Alain before... not to mention those are the only 2 fights we get to see him battle in.

Alain isn't your typical Gary/Paul/Trip character type rival, he actually doesn't care to point out whether he's better then Ash or not nor does he think Ash is weak. Ash doesn't have to prove anything to him by beating him, because Alain has already admitted that Ash is a great trainer. That's the only reason Ash is ever guaranteed a win against a specific rival, because he has to prove something. All he's going to do in his battle with Alain is aim to win the League, which is basically a 50/50 crapshoot because there's no hidden motive behind it. "Oh but Greninja has to prove it's better then Charizard X" No it doesn't, not when it's already been established that no one thinks it's weak and that it's actually a formidable opponent.

Hello? People want him to win no matter the circumstances, considering no one has ever been happy with him LOSING leagues over these 20 years. I'm not about to wait another 3-4 years to see him win a "better league" (well, I mean I WILL but I'd rather see him win now).

 

[Joltik-Kid]

Hello? People want him to win no matter the circumstances, considering no one has ever been happy with him LOSING leagues over these 20 years. I'm not about to wait another 3-4 years to see him win a "better league" (well, I mean I WILL but I'd rather see him win now).

If he wins, it's still hallow for those who believe this league has already started off in the wrong direction, so it's not like it proves anything. I suppose Ash being given a team of fully evolved Pokemon and gifted a special Greninja that may or may not exist in the games, but has the power of a Mega, may indicate this is his league to lose, but...

Come to think of it, has the down side of Ash-Greninja occurred since mastering the form? If not, that's just broken and plot inducing.

 

[Soniman]

If he wins, it's still hallow for those who believe this league has already started off in the wrong direction, so it's not like it proves anything. I suppose Ash being given a team of fully evolved Pokemon and gifted a special Greninja that may or may not exist in the games, but has the power of a Mega, may indicate this is his league to lose, but...

Come to think of it, has the down side of Ash-Greninja occurred since mastering the form? If not, that's just broken and plot inducing.

Except not at all.

The faults of Ash Greninja were addressed and ironed out during its arc, it's only standing weakness now is the pain sharing weakness, which is still one more weakness then regular Megas have which is zero

 

[Epicocity]

Except not at all.

The faults of Ash Greninja were addressed and ironed out during its arc, it's only standing weakness now is the pain sharing weakness, which is still one more weakness then regular Megas have which is zero

That's the whole thing. People act like this super-special-Greninja comes with zero effort or hang-ups, when, in fact, it's far more difficult to deal with than a Mega. It attests to Ash's abilities that he's been able to master it while knowing ultimately so little about it. (And it's not like the people in-universe know all that much about Mega Evolution in the first place).

 

[Rohanator]

If he wins, it's still hallow for those who believe this league has already started off in the wrong direction, so it's not like it proves anything. I suppose Ash being given a team of fully evolved Pokemon and gifted a special Greninja that may or may not exist in the games, but has the power of a Mega, may indicate this is his league to lose, but...

Come to think of it, has the down side of Ash-Greninja occurred since mastering the form? If not, that's just broken and plot inducing.

If a league having a bad start is all it takes for you to be unable to enjoy Ash finally winning one then I have nothing else to say on that, especially when we don't know how good the full battles will be, Alan is a super strong opponent anyway. I don't understand the mind set, but to each their own.

Ash wasn't just "given" a fully evolved team or Ash Greninja, he evolved every Mon himself and he worked to master the special form. May I recommend a nice rewatch?

 

[Alexander18]

Ash should save Ash-Greninja for last. I don't think it would keep the form when battling against 6 pokemon since it would get worn down to the point of losing the transformation.

 

[Soniman]

That weakness is nonexistent to both of them since Ash always happens to use it for last anyway. Fainting with Greninja at the end as his last Pokemon doesn't really make a difference since...well, it doesn't and won't kill Ash.

There. I basically made the "share pain" think a needless factor for added drama.

Again, it's still a weakness, Mega Pokemon font have any, im not sure what's trying to be proven here

 

[Afrodisiac]

If he wins, it's still hallow for those who believe this league has already started off in the wrong direction, so it's not like it proves anything. I suppose Ash being given a team of fully evolved Pokemon and gifted a special Greninja that may or may not exist in the games, but has the power of a Mega, may indicate this is his league to lose, but...

Come to think of it, has the down side of Ash-Greninja occurred since mastering the form? If not, that's just broken and plot inducing.

Ash felt Greninja's damage in the Mega Abomasnow battle, so that's something.

Still, how is it broken? It's been used TWICE after mastering, or 1 and a half time to be more precise. And it's probably gonna lose to one of Alain's Pokémon anyway [img200]http://foros.fotech.cl/public/style_emoticons/default/ji.gif[/img200]

The level of reaching in this thread is astounding.

 

[Domok]

This episode right here will either be a monumental episode with Ash winning or a epic but a bit disappointing episode if Alain wins. Hype!