August 12th: PM2019 121 - The Climax Begins: Satoshi's Masters Tournament Experience

[mehmeh1]

I dunno if we can use the pandemic as an excuse for Journey's problems. Shows like Amphibia and the Owl House have been pretty great in the west and Spy X Family doesn't appear to be experiencing any difficulties in its production, all three of those shows had a good portion of, if not all of, their production done during the pandemic.

I dunno, maybe things are done differently for anime like Pokemon but a good majority of the things I've seen the last two years haven't exactly suffered much in quality. Things went slower but the quality hasn't declined.

Pretty sure western cartoons' production is different and has a looser schedule than anime. I mean IIRC the joke post-finale storyboard for Amphibia was dated 2021 (and tbh Amphibia's animation is fairly standard aside from the longer episodes, it's mostly direction carrying its visuals). Not to mention that Pokemon is a weekly long-runner. The only series I've seen that would be a good comparison is One Piece and well.......yeah JN still doesn't hold a candle to OP's current state (which tbh is surprising since Toei is handling a ton of stuff currently). So yeah, there's definitely something going on in OLM or at least whatever division of it is assigned to Pokemon that's causing these issues. Maybe due to budget they can't hire as many animators and/or drawings per episode?

 

[Bortgreen]

Late SM? yeah (even if a few cracks were starting to show mid-league, but I put that more on having 17 episodes of back to back battles), Early JN? Not really, the first 2 episodes were great, but then most of the others weren't anything to call home about, and some were downright bad (episode 3 especially). Even Iwane's episodes felt less fluid than usual, which does hint at the issues being there already

I feel like the early battles were still better than the ones we have been getting... Even the Leon 1v1s in the beginning
Some battles like Mimey vs Hariyama were already a bit awkward though

 

[Dragonsoldier77]

That's a whole different sentence. All I said is it's not fair to be like "amphibia was fine during the pandemic then journeys has no excuse". The work environment from the two studio I bet are very different and I'm sure the pandemic affected them differently.

I mean they mentioned spy x family that’s by a japanese company as well. And if we’re going as far as companies and situation are different, then any argument can just be brushed off with ‘things are different’.

Even in terms of of long running japanese anime, toei is juggling one piece and digimon just fine as well, if not continously exceeding expectations. This while doing a movie unlike pokemon currently. But then if you say the company and how their situation is different, isn’t it impossible to actually critizise anything?

 

[Evstike]

So yeah, there's definitely something going on in OLM or at least whatever division of it is assigned to Pokemon that's causing these issues. Maybe due to budget they can't hire as many animators and/or drawings per episode?

It's also possible that the freelancers and talent that allowed XY and SM to reach the heights they did just aren't available. Masami Obari said that he was asked to work on Ash vs Rinto but had to decline because he didn't have the time, so it looks like they are trying to get people. Maybe Pokemon isn't as enticing as it once was for animators when they're busy working on other projects, or maybe the connections from the past two series aren't in place anymore. Outside of the openings, the first few episodes and a few exceptions, every standout episode only has the usual Pokemon team credited unlike XY and SM which would occasionally get some names outside of the usual team.

Budget issues probably explains why fluidity and compositing have taken a hit.

As for the rest of OLM, I'm not sure what the situation is but Summer Time Rendering's absurd amount of animation directors is troubling with the exception of yesterday's exceptional episode from Yajima and co. with only one AD.

 

[mehmeh1]

It's also possible that the freelancers and talent that allowed XY and SM to reach the heights they did just aren't available. Masami Obari said that he was asked to work on Ash vs Rinto but had to decline because he didn't have the time. Maybe Pokemon isn't as enticing as it once was for animators when they're busy working on other projects, or maybe the connections from the past two series aren't in place anymore. Outside of the openings, the first few episodes and a few exceptions, every standout episode only has the usual Pokemon team credited unlike XY and SM which would occasionally get some names outside of the usual team.

Budget issues probably explains why fluidity and compositing have taken a hit.

As for the rest of OLM, I'm not sure what the situation is but Summer Time Rendering's absurd amount of animation directors is troubling with the exception of yesterday's exceptional episode from Yajima and co. with only one AD.

hmm, yeah that's also likely. Maenami for example has been in One Piece and other anime instead of Pokemon. Not sure where Ohashi or Nishiya have been though.

Also, didn't pokemon use to be way ahead of schedule? Guess animator shortages and budget issues have caused schedule issues as well.

From what I saw of Komi's anime the animation seemed great, but that was last year.

 

[Gingertail24]

I mean they mentioned spy x family that’s by a japanese company as well. And if we’re going as far as companies and situation are different, then any argument can just be brushed off with ‘things are different’.

Even in terms of of long running japanese anime, toei is juggling one piece and digimon just fine as well, if not continously exceeding expectations. This while doing a movie unlike pokemon currently. But then if you say the company and how their situation is different, isn’t it impossible to actually critizise anything?

But you also have to keep in mind that sou x family is from a popular manga. The pokemon anime is from the most popular multimedia franchise ever. I'm sure they have much more stressful and different work environment. I'm not saying never critique them. But to just dismiss how different the two studios are is weird. I'm sure there deadlines are much more stricter. Especially when they have to have the anime ready by November. While working on other projects etc

And toei has had issues as well. I remember many filler arcs not in the OP manga that was shown in the anime. Pretty sure that was to give the animators time.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Alright from the title it does seem like a clip show but hey, the tv guide lists it in its numbering whereas Chloe's clip show isnt
Also in response to the recent discussions:
- The first instance of there being trouble with the animation was honestly ep20 with so many animation directors, before that it was smooth sailing with normal amount of quality and lapses in quality, with Ash vs Visquez being reminiscent of XY/SM esque animation
- Obviously the Pandemic isnt the only reason, but gross comments like the staff is "glad covid happened so they can blame it" is plain ignorant and dumb as hell.
- Looks like OLM had budget cuts/more resources moving to their other sources, as @Evstike mentioned freelancers stopped working and there was some sort of shuffling behind scenes that made things messy. They might have been able to get a grip but Im sure the Pandemic worsened everything by a tenfold. Scrapping episodes because of all the breaks might have caused issues as well, as did the director change
- Since then, the production probably is shaky especially with their ambition being high but they simply not having enough resources, esp since talent is still there

Is it saddening? Yes, it really brings down the most climatic moment in the anime. But I hate when people abuse the crew for it because I doubt they themselves are happy with the quality they are putting out. The frequent breaks outside of timeslot hijacking is evident, and this being a clipshow does indicate they are unable to make the semis and finals as epic as they want to without more time. Hopefully it bears some fruit

Now, if it isnt a clip show I'll be really happy to get a Masters 8 breather honestly, more interactions and trainings/buildup.

 

[Evstike]

hmm, yeah that's also likely. Maenami for example has been in One Piece and other anime instead of Pokemon. Not sure where Ohashi or Nishiya have been though.

Looks like Ohashi's been quiet lately, but Nishiya was the animation director on this week's Summer Time Rendering ep and gave us a goated action scene alongside Maenami, Murata, and some other notable names. 10/10 episode straight heat.

- The first instance of there being trouble with the animation was honestly ep20 with so many animation directors, before that it was smooth sailing with normal amount of quality and lapses in quality,

Eh, it had some good episodes but still a downgrade from XY/SM generally, where ep 3 was downright bad.

with Ash vs Visquez being reminiscent of XY/SM esque animation

I don't think it's fair to compare Iwane to anything other than him own episodes since it's an entirely different situation when it only comes down to him rather than having to put together a whole team. He has full control over how the drawings are used in order to maximize movement.

esp since talent is still there

No it's not. That's why we're having these issues.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Eh, it had some good episodes but still a downgrade from XY/SM generally, where ep 3 was downright bad.

I don't think it's fair to compare Iwane to anything other than him own episodes since it's an entirely different situation when it only comes down to him rather than having to put together a whole team. He has full control over how the drawings are used in order to maximize movement.

No it's not. That's why we're having these issues.

When Im talking about talent, Im talking about writers like Tomioka and animators like Iwane who despite being experienced even now cant produce epic battles on their own and their episodes still seem not as well animated
And honestly early JN seemed fine to me, there were some issues but I really liked them and the production didnt seem messy or as fallen apart as it did starting from ep20. Like for me Lance vs Leon was superbly animated as well, as was the raid battle in ep2 and 14 and the Hoji battle, so everything seemed promising

 

[Kazuniya]

Another recap.

 

[Zoruagible]

Helix almighty, enough with the clip shows!

 

[Dephender]

Alright from the title it does seem like a clip show but hey, the tv guide lists it in its numbering whereas Chloe's clip show isnt

No, the guide the three new episodes we learned about today came from doesn't number episodes. Hence the question mark in the title. The July 29 episode being unnumbered and the August 5 episode being 119 come from a different mag that didn't mention any other episodes but those two.

 

[Remix2]

Sound like summer time rendering took a lot of the most talented people on Pokémon away.

 

[Dragonsoldier77]

And toei has had issues as well. I remember many filler arcs not in the OP manga that was shown in the anime. Pretty sure that was to give the animators time.

I mean sure, but i brought up toei since while people keep stating JN is only bad due to covid, toei have gone the opposite and have brought one piece up to unbeliveable levels of quality on a near constant basis since around the time JN started. This of course without fillers as well. So it kinda irks me when covid is used on a cure all when i’m sure other studious are doing what they need to do to keep their production going, and going good.

 

[Poke Master 7]

Stop using the pandemic as an excuse on why the tournament is a disaster.

The entire production of Journeys is a mess, and they’re probably glad that the pandemic happened, as they now have a scapegoat.

At this point, I’d rather watch a documentary about the making of JN than an actual episode of JN.

So glad that someone finally said it considering how many people use the virus as an excuse for the terrible production when things were bad even before.

Also, I’ll second that documentary idea. At least then we’d actually get questions answered on the thought process that went into some of these baffling decisions in this series.

 

[Bortgreen]

The pandemic isn't an excuse, just a possible reason and probably not the only one
Something else indeed messed up production

 

[UnovaMaster]

Here's something that would impact production motivation

If they were told they were cancelled once JN finishes

 

[MartínK]

Journeys problems are very easy:

- They didn't knew how to use well the two protagonist.

- Goh true purpose and goal was a mistake, just because Pokémon Go is a global sucess doesn't mean that they need to shove it in all the franchise.

- Project Mew should be Goh goal from the beginning, mixing battles from Ash with Goh researches instead of him catching everything that moves.

- The big amount of worthless fillers since the beginning.

Add the pandemic and we get the result that is JN.

Well about this "episode" let's wait for more info.

 

[mehmeh1]

I mean sure, but i brought up toei since while people keep stating JN is only bad due to covid, toei have gone the opposite and have brought one piece up to unbeliveable levels of quality on a near constant basis since around the time JN started. This of course without fillers as well. So it kinda irks me when covid is used on a cure all when i’m sure other studious are doing what they need to do to keep their production going, and going good.

Tbh IDK what happened in Toei, but around the time DBS' ToP arc started (so like, early 2017) they've really stepped up their game. I mean Wano Piece is awesome, but WCI was no slouch either, and while I hear divisive things about Digimon Adventure 2020 I heard good things of its animation (or at least at the start)

 

[Bortgreen]

- Goh true purpose and goal was a mistake, just because Pokémon Go is a global sucess doesn't mean that they need to shove it in all the franchise.

Not only that, Goh didn't make PoGo justice either
He never used different pokéballs, lures etc