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August 26th: PM2019 122 - The Semifinals I: Sweep

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AJ97

Well-Known Member
Don‘t take those stats serious. According to them Diantha is just one point behind Leon, but we all know how their match will turn out.
I personally disagree.
I think the STATS are actually a very good representation for the four of them.

We see Leon with Perfect Attack, Defense, Speed (With the other Regional Champions having gaps in 1 or 2 of these traits). Makes sense as Leon being the unbeatable champion would have no gaps in this aspect. Plus, Ash has never been a defensive trainer and has mostly been about Speed + Offense. He always wins his matches with most of his Pokemon falling; so makes sense why he seems much weaker in Defense compared to Attack + Speed.

As for the strategy debate, as stated previously; I think this more has to do with conventional game tactics which Ash barely uses in contrast to the other Regional Champions.

And for the surprise/Unexpectedness trait; this has always been Ash's ace right from the start of the series. And Cynthia's low rating here also makes sense given that she's the most experienced trainer of the bunch. Someone as experienced as proficient as her, would be less likely to resort to high risk unexpected tricks.
 

Speed22

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I don't think these stats will actually dictate match results, but I just think it's rather unfortunate that Ash is being treated as some sort of idiot, when realistically they could've taken points out of all those stats to give him 5/5 Strategy and Unpredictability.
He is an idiot. Always has been, always will be. The writing staff demands it, because they're hacks.
 

Blood Red

1996-2023
He is an idiot. Always has been, always will be. The writing staff demands it, because they're hacks.
He used to be good at strategy. In fact, for a while it used to be his big 'thing' alongside unpredictability and the fact that he works best with fast mons.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I don't think these stats will actually dictate match results, but I just think it's rather unfortunate that Ash is being treated as some sort of idiot, when realistically they could've taken points out of all those stats to give him 5/5 Strategy and Unpredictability.
I think you might be misunderstanding what "Strategy" here means.

Looking at Ash's low score and Diantha/Cynthia's High scores which happen to be even greater than Leon; I think this has to do with conventional Strategy which Ash barely uses.
 

Speed22

Well-Known Member
He used to be good at strategy. In fact, for a while it used to be his big 'thing' alongside unpredictability and the fact that he works best with fast mons.
No. That's been retconned. Honestly, Leon should wipe the floor with him if logic existed. I'm almost rooting for Leon at this point. Then again; we're getting one of the worst pieces of character assassination in this entire series with Cynthia wanting to retire, so who cares at this point? Old fans were baited and insulted by the production team all throughout this series.
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
I personally disagree.
I think the STATS are actually a very good representation for the four of them.
I‘ve already mentioned earlier that they were probably just hastily written to have some sort of new content for a recap. Besides, having just 5 points per area is not sufficient enough to truly show the differences between characters. A proper diagram would have 10, maybe even 20 points per area. With 5 points, the difference between a perfect strategist and a mediocre strategist appears way less than it actually is.
We see Leon with Perfect Attack, Defense, Speed (With the other Regional Champions having gaps in 1 or 2 of these traits). Makes sense as Leon being the unbeatable champion would have no gaps in this aspect. Plus, Ash has never been a defensive trainer and has mostly been about Speed + Offense. He always wins his matches with most of his Pokemon falling; so makes sense why he seems much weaker in Defense compared to Attack + Speed.
It‘s true that it‘s normal that Ash is better in speed and offense than in defense, that has been a recurring theme since DP. However, if Leon‘s perfect attack clashes against Diantha‘s “perfect“ defense, the result shouldn’t be a one-sided wipe out. The stats don‘t correlate to what‘s being shown by the anime.
As for the strategy debate, as stated previously; I think this more has to do with conventional game tactics which Ash barely uses in contrast to the other Regional Champions.
I‘ve no issues with his strategy stats being low.
And for the surprise/Unexpectedness trait; this has always been Ash's ace right from the start of the series. And Cynthia's low rating here also makes sense given that she's the most experienced trainer of the bunch. Someone as experienced as proficient as her, would be less likely to resort to high risk unexpected tricks.
Meh. Even if that‘s the reasoning for Cynthia, I don‘t see what Leon and especially Diantha have done so far that warrants a higher ranking in that stat.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
I‘ve already mentioned earlier that they were probably just hastily written to have some sort of new content for a recap. Besides, having just 5 points per area is not sufficient enough to truly show the differences between characters. A proper diagram would have 10, maybe even 20 points per area. With 5 points, the difference between a perfect strategist and a mediocre strategist appears way less than it actually is.

It‘s true that it‘s normal that Ash is better in speed and offense than in defense, that has been a recurring theme since DP. However, if Leon‘s perfect attack clashes against Diantha‘s “perfect“ defense, the result shouldn’t be a one-sided wipe out. The stats don‘t correlate to what‘s being shown by the anime.
I think you're misunderstanding the graphs. The Graphs are not using a Point based system to objectively calculate and give a precise value as to how strong each Champion is in the particular stat.

For example, we have Leon and Ash with equal stats in attack and speed. This doesn't mean Leon = Ash in terms of offense and speed. It just implies that Ash's team is highly rated for Offense/Speed and the same goes for Leon's team.
We can assume there is a certain threshold level that needs to be passed for each Stat point in the Graph and both Ash/Leon are beyond that threshold for those attributes. Leon's offense/Speed could still be much greater than Ash's and vice versa.

Meh. Even if that‘s the reasoning for Cynthia, I don‘t see what Leon and especially Diantha have done so far that warrants a higher ranking in that stat.
1) Leon G-Maxed Rilaboom out of the blue.
2) In the Steven fight; when Pikachu catches the Power Whip; we see Leon seem surprised albeit a lot less compared to Cynthia & Diantha. This in a way sort of supports the stats (Someone who battles more unconventionally would be less surprised with Ash's moves).
3) Diantha falls somewhere in the middle ground. While she's experienced, she's not as experienced as Cynthia, and she battles taking more risks and with less finesse compared to Cynthia. In the Cynthia vs Iris fight, the former never flinched throughout the fight, without any panic and was in total control. Diantha seemed to lose her cool a bit more in comparison to Cynthia.
 

pancakemonster

Alola...home...
Obviously it won't happen, but I just think it would be hilarious if Cynthia won against Leon in the end and then immediately retired, making Leon rank #1 again by default and the tournament next year is just everyone trying to take him down again.
 

Blood Red

1996-2023
No. That's been retconned. Honestly, Leon should wipe the floor with him if logic existed. I'm almost rooting for Leon at this point. Then again; we're getting one of the worst pieces of character assassination in this entire series with Cynthia wanting to retire, so who cares at this point? Old fans were baited and insulted by the production team all throughout this series.
tbh if you care about what the anime used to be, I think it's best if you ignored it entirely.
 

Speed22

Well-Known Member
tbh if you care about what the anime used to be, I think it's best if you ignored it entirely.
Gladly. I'd rather watch BW than either of the last two series at this rate. I'm just here for train wreck that'll be the ending to this series and possibly the beginning of the SV anime. See?! I can complain about stuff that isn't about what parts of XY that JN took a dump on!
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
I think you're misunderstanding the graphs. The Graphs are not using a Point based system to objectively calculate and give a precise value as to how strong each Champion is in the particular stat.

For example, we have Leon and Ash with equal stats in attack and speed. This doesn't mean Leon = Ash in terms of offense and speed. It just implies that Ash's team is highly rated for Offense/Speed and the same goes for Leon's team.
We can assume there is a certain threshold level that needs to be passed for each Stat point in the Graph and both Ash/Leon are beyond that threshold for those attributes. Leon's offense/Speed could still be much greater than Ash's and vice versa.
Using such graphs kinda implies they can be used to compare champions though, as each team can achieve the same maximum number that equals a supposed “perfect“ team. They are similar to Jojo’s Stand diagrams with how they‘re presented. We know that Ash is a worse strategist than the others exactly because of his points in that area being lower.

This Leon vs Ash issue is exactly why they should‘ve more points to allocate, or simply have some of Leon‘s stats be an ambiguous ???, which is the approach used by JoJo.
1) Leon G-Maxed Rilaboom out of the blue.
That was unexpected, but also a pointless downgrade to G-Max Charizard, so it‘s not something that should be used to validate a higher ranking.
2) In the Steven fight; when Pikachu catches the Power Whip; we see Leon seem surprised albeit a lot less compared to Cynthia & Diantha. This in a way sort of supports the stats (Someone who battles more unconventionally would be less surprised with Ash's moves).
I interpreted that scene so that Leon just expected Ash to surprise him with such a tactic, and felt vindicated when Ash managed to fulfill his expectations.
3) Diantha falls somewhere in the middle ground. While she's experienced, she's not as experienced as Cynthia, and she battles taking more risks and with less finesse compared to Cynthia. In the Cynthia vs Iris fight, the former never flinched throughout the fight, without any panic and was in total control. Diantha seemed to lose her cool a bit more in comparison to Cynthia.
Diantha in general seems like a weird case. For someone that had an overwhelming advantage over Lance due to the type match-up, she struggled greatly and as you said, never appeared confident. I feel that she is getting overhyped in recent discussions while Lance is being underrated, but I guess that‘s a different topic altogether.
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
The “Cynthia wants to retire” idea is in my opinion a direct reference to her dialogue from the games during the Champion battle. Specifically the:
“I can't remember the last time I was put in a corner like this!"
and
"I won't let this end yet! This match is too fun to let it end this easily!”

I think Ash will reignite her passion for battling, similar to what he did with Volkner. It’d be a very nice character arc for her if so.
Glad someone caught that too, it was my first immediate thought!

Though a happy medium would be her going on to battle but still retiring but being a “wandering” archeologist-styled battler, she can be incredibly powerful without wanting to be held down as Sinnoh’s ultimate trainer.
 

nuzamaki90

Well-Known Member
That line alone added more weight/stakes to this battle than anything else so I’m totally sure it’ll be addressed in some capacity during the battle.
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
It’s actually insane watching PM2019 cough out more character development, backstory and general depth to the mysterious “strong wise” champion in only a couple episodes than Anipoke had in the last decade…if only they had fleshed out this throughout the series. Either way, I’m happy they’re doing well by her and this just oddly, makes the Pokémon anime universe feel less sterile(?)

Anipoke has to stay connected to the games which hampered its potential and future, but PM2019 takes this character and builds upon it in a way that makes them feel more enriching even if functionally they have to stay under the same “story” mandates.

EDIT: Also y’all taking these stats seriously? This is the equivalent of the “big and reliable” scans back from XY’s league or other slapdash marketing hype. I don’t think it’s meant to be grounded in anything or at least not so intensely? That being said Satoshi is a terrible strategist, Kamitsure, Kohei, etc. shows data isn’t his thing and he’s better on being unpredictable and spurring crazy crap at that moment.
 

Kazuniya

how cute~
It’s actually insane watching PM2019 cough out more character development, backstory and general depth to the mysterious “strong wise” champion in only a couple episodes than Anipoke had in the last decade…
My apologies, but Cynthia getting a "backstory" (which is actually just how Cynthia got Gible from an egg, wow, so complex) only for the purpose of justifying a Mega Lucario vs Mega Garchomp battle is anything but praiseworthy. In fact it is quite obnoxious.

Also what character development has she received? lol

You've been crapping a lot on Cynthia's appearances in the previous series, and you're acting like Journeys has done so much compelling writing Cynthia when in reality it has not. She hasn't changed much as a person. Plus we already learned Cynthia's backstory during DP, which you seem to have conveniently forgotten. (Yes, it's easy to ignore established facts to justify your own viewpoint, but try not doing that.)
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Sailor Galaxi-witch
Eh, XY tried so hard to make him look like a teenager and I’m sorry but he had the most boring outfit choice of the series.
Agreed and it was so unoriginal as well that they had to use a design for his cap that was from 3 generations ago instead of coming up with something original.
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
My apologies, but Cynthia getting a "backstory" (which is actually just how Cynthia got Gible from an egg, wow, so complex) only for the purpose of justifying a Mega Lucario vs Mega Garchomp battle is anything but praiseworthy. In fact it is quite obnoxious.
Which is more of a narrative and purpose than she ever had in the anime. During DP she was introduced and her whole thing was being a strong and incredibly powerful trainer. She mainly was there to add narrative weight to the Shinji rivalry. She didn’t really have much a personal connection or raison d'être of her own. She was just a walking insurmountable wall picking off trainers and fighting off various legendary or evil crime syndicate threats. A symbol of invincibility and knowledge.

I already addressed the added connection to the aura jackal and how that doesn’t and shouldn’t take away from Shirona’s own past and humanity as a character. Even without the aura dog it’s great seeing the anime branching out on its own and putting in work to fill in the blank or leaving things more vague. It’s its own medium so showing us a young child Shirona, Fukamaru, her speaking with Satoshi/Carne/the children and the like offers more to her outside just battling. Ironically people have been asking of more of this for the extremely invincible character even if they do love her.
Also what character development has she received? lol
Character development isn’t just her narrative change as a person that will occur, it’s the fact they’re fleshing out the character and her past. They actually are putting some skin into this match with Shirona’s personal feelings mattering beyond that. It makes the character more endearing/human and rootable even without the Satoshi/Lucario parallels. It makes her feel like the star of her own story and biggest battle. Because what other reason is there? It’s a sharp contrast to her role being more stoic and unshakeable during her first match in disposition. If the Arceus Specials are any indications she seems far more happier and involved with her stuff around Sinnoh’s mythos and past so seeing her express feelings of being beyond battling is quite progressive and appealing in such a static world and lore even if not the end result.
You've been crapping a lot on Cynthia's appearances in the previous series, and you're acting like Journeys has done so much compelling writing Cynthia when in reality it has not. She hasn't changed much as a person. Plus we already learned Cynthia's backstory during DP, which you seem to have conveniently forgotten. (Yes, it's easy to ignore established facts to justify your own viewpoint, but try not doing that.)
Shirona was mostly a vehicle to push Shinji’s character/rivalry above all else. Satoshi and Shirona have a nothing dynamic outside of being another strong opponent he’s hyped to fight. They’re a lot of hype behind this showdown but not much personal substance in the subject matter. Shirona on her own was an archeologist with a powerful Gablias but didn’t go beyond that. Even PokeSpe gives her a personal character arc. with her insecurities, humanization and issues perfecting Draco Meteor and saving the day from Akagi/Galactic. Anime Shirona did give us the amazing “love of ice cream”-intervention but they didn’t really contribute to her own character or narrative outside a funny gag.
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
That preview got me so freaking hyped istg, please let the animation be good!
Kinda hoping she has an eyepatch underneath her bangs.
You jest but here I am now hoping that is the case. Cynthia with an eyepatch? Ooh mama
Ash *barely wins with Lucario hanging on with 1HP*

Volo *Takes off the wig and clothes*

Volo “If I can meet Arceus myself, then I may also be able to subjugate its power... And using that, I will attempt to create a new, better world where Journeys, Tobias and BW never existed! I can’t lose to your off-screen team here! Can't you feel it? The chill creeping through your veins—the eldritch presence icing your heart? Giratina! Strike him down!"
Gods that was SUCH a good moment in the games, probably my favourite thing from the games ever
According to the stats shown in the promo video

x6u2el4ubbh91.jpg


Ash

Attack: 5/5
Defense: 3/5
Speed: 5/5
Strategy: 2/5
Experience: 2/5
Unpredictability: 5/5

Total: 22/30

Cynthia:

Attack: 5/5
Defense: 5/5
Speed: 4/5
Strategy: 5/5
Experience: 5/5
Unpredictability: 3/5

Total: 27/30

Leon:

Attack: 5/5
Defense: 5/5
Speed: 5/5
Strategy: 4/5
Experience: 4/5
Unpredictability: 4/5

Total: 27/30

Diantha:

Attack: 4/5
Defense: 5/5
Speed: 4/5
Strategy: 5/5
Experience: 4/5
Unpredictability: 4/5

Total: 26/30

I like that Cynthia's two weakest stats (Speed and Unpredictability) are ones Ash excels in
Ive been thinking about this a lot, and while at first I was surprised to see the Experience and strat points for Ash being low, this honestly makes sense to me and is well described. Ill describe the strat part below but for the experience thing, he is the newest champion and also the youngest, so although we know just how much he has done, in universe it makes sense his experience is rated below the rest of the champs.
The scoreboard was basically shown in the preview so basically this the confirmed order of Pokémon they send out on both sides:

Ash:
1.Dragonite
2.Gengar
3.Pikachu
4.Dracovish
5.Sirfetch’d
6.Lucario

Cynthia:
1.Spiritomb
2.Roserade
3.Togekiss
4.Gastrodon
5.Garchomp
6.Milotic

So basically going off my prediction these is how it breaks down confirmation wise:

The stuff in Bold is basically confirmed, while the stuff that is italicized is safe to assume.

Dragonite vs Spiritomb: Dragonite is forced to be recalled
Gengar vs Spiritomb: Spritiomb is forced to be recalled
Gengar vs Roserade: Gengar is forced to be recalled
Dragonite vs Roserade: Roserade is forced to be recalled
Dragonite vs Togekiss: Dragonite is forced to be recalled
Gengar vs Togekiss: Togekiss is forced to be recalled
Gengar vs Gastrodon: Gastrodon
Dragonite vs Gastrodon: Dragonite
Dragonite vs Togekiss: Togekiss
Pikachu vs Togekiss: Togekiss is forced to be recalled
Pikachu vs Spiritomb: Draw
Dracovish vs Roserade
: Dracovish
Dracovish vs Garchomp: Garchomp and recalled
Sirfetch’d vs Milotic: Sirfetch’d
Sirfetch’d vs Togekiss : Togekiss
Lucario vs Togekiss: Lucario
Lucario
<- - ->Mega Lucario vs Garchomp <- - -> Mega Garchomp: Mega Lucario

Also it is confirmed that by the time Pikachu had drawer with Spiritomb that Gastrodon, Dragonite, and Gengar have all been knocked out.
DUDE I REALLY hope this is how it plays out because its honestly perfect imo, the only change I would have made is Kommo-o instead of Gastrodon but bygones are bygones. This will be such a thrilling matchup honestly and does justice to every mon imo
I'm surprised they gave him so low in tactics, when it's one of his better points.
So the character whose whole deal used to be 'unconventional strategy' is now...worse than middling at strategy? Gee, no wonder this show is garbage!
Okay so want to address this point and how it is actually accurate what they gave him.

Ash has the HIGHEST unpredictability out of all the other champions including Cynthia and Leon, with it being his ace. When we talk about Ash being amazing in stats and tactics, that IS reflected in the Unpredictability section. @Blood Red 'Unconventional strategy' is Ash's whole deal, that IS why he has the highest unpredictability because that is where unconventional strategy comes into play
When we talk about the strategy section, as someone mentioned its ABOUT the conventional strategy, the games strategy, the one Diantha is shown to be so good at, Paul is shown to be so good at. Ash's unconvential strats are always what overpowered Paul's strats, Ash's unpredictability countered Paul's strategy. Counter Shield, Ice Aqua Jet, Rock Tomb Climb, The infamous Soak and Thunder armor, that is Ash's unpredictability rather than the conventional game strategy which his opponents would use against him and he would counter. Ash isnt the type to really always prepare with strats beforehand (infamously Elesa) and when he does on a few occasions he either has to resort back to his unpredictable counters or his strat revolves around an unpredictable counter

Now feel free to disagree still, but calling the show 'garbage' for that is such an overreaction, thought was put into these stat allocations. What we praise Ash for is reflected in his unpredictability stat

Ash's stats shown literally say the following: A trainer who excels at speedy pokemon with hard hitting attacks, has trouble with tanking and pure defensive mons, never usually uses conventional strategy as we know it (games) and is still a kid, but is the most unpredictable trainer out of them all with his unconventional counters and moves.

How is that NOT Ash?
 

Yce288

Grass type FTW
Man, all of sudden I feel like AniPoke writers decided to go full Yu-Gi-Oh levels of writing with female characters... Chloe has no real narrative purpose, Diantha gets one win before getting wiped with ease, Cynthia retires the second she has a relevant returning battle.
SEVENS and Go Rush treat female characters nicely so far.
to me, it feels more like a Naruto writing where an antagonist is about to die and his backstory is revealed and he actually had a hard childhood and was misled because of it.
 

nuzamaki90

Well-Known Member
...None of those two lines ever implied she was retiring.

Also, considering the fact she fought Iris, it'd be pretty insulting for Iris if Cynthia found her boring enough to consider retiring.

Cynthia: I can't wait to retire. No one has given me inspiration to keep fighting.
Goh: ...Wait, didn't you have fun fighting Iris?
Cynthia: Imagine the volume of my mental groan when I found out she wasn't bothering to use Dynamax at least. Is she Piers-ing me? Please. Longest 10 minutes of my life I had to pretend to smile while groaning mentally.
??? What are you talking about? The two lines imply that she hasn’t had a battle as intense as the one she had with the protagonist in a long time. She wanted someone to give her that fix and she found them. I’m not implying she was going to retire in the games, I’m outright saying there’s a possibility the writers used those lines to write this “Cynthia is retiring” plot in the anime, especially when they’ve been taking advantage of the game dialogue a lot this series, including the Masters Tournament.

You guys complain about JN’s writing so much but can’t even use the most basic of context clues lol.
 
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