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Baby Storm: The "Genderless" Baby

bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
Before continuing to read, comment and debate, be aware that sex is the biological and physiological term, and gender is the cultural attachments that each sex receives. Furthermore there is more than just two genders, even in our own culture.

Little baby Storm has sparked quite a controversy amongst parents all over the world. Inspired by the "magical" fantasy story X: A Fabulous Child's Story, Kathy Witerick, a progressive mother, and David Stocker, a progressive father and teacher, have decided to raise their third child gender neutrally as a "social experiment."

Their first child Jazz, a five year old boy, has grown his hair out long and has enjoyed wearing girl clothes. Kio, the second boy, enjoys playing more with boy oriented toys and seems more comfortable adhering to the male gender that Western society and specifically Canadian culture has laid out for the male sex. Apparently during pregnancy, Jazz wondered how the baby would turn out if no one gave it a gender. Kathy Witerick outlines the situation from her own perspective in this letter:

My name is Kathy Witterick. I’m shy and idealistic, and all my life I’ve worked in the field of abuse and violence prevention. I married a teacher named David Stocker and we have three children. Jazz is five years old. Since he was a young baby, he’s enjoyed colour, texture and vibrancy. When he was 18 months, he loved to wear layers of wildly striped and mismatched clothing and when his grandparents took him to get his very first pair of shoes, he chose the ones with orange toes and pink flowers on the side. When his brother was born, I joked I’d grow old as woman in a man’s world.

As Jazz grew, his love of bright colours (especially pink) and lots of fabric (especially dresses) continued, and he wanted to grow his hair. The older he became, the more he met with pressure from peers and adults to adjust his image and “act more like a boy.” Jazz remained committed to his own style.

I re-read the research and approaches of Alfie Kohn, Barbara Coloroso, and Adele Faber to find ways to support him. The firm rule around self image became: it has to be clean and healthy, but you can choose the colours and the lengths.

When Storm was near arrival, Jazz was listening to Free to Be You and Me on repeat (it was a gift from a friend). He wondered if people would respond differently if they didn’t know the baby’s sex. What gifts would they bring? If Storm was a boy, would he be allowed to wear dresses? Pink? There are these moments as a parent when you wish your child could bring a different issue to the table — but there it is, plop! And if you really mean what you say about being kind, honouring difference, having an open mind and placing limits thoughtfully where they help children develop competencies and be safe, then you better walk the talk. We agreed to keep the sex of our new baby private.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/canada/Baby+Storm+gender+parenting+media/4856804/story.html

Witerick's decision has struck a nerve with many parents; the responses of parents have been wide and diverse. According to chief psychologist at the Toronto Center for Addiction and Mental Health Dr. Zucker, people are so interested because "it creates anxiety in people who are now wondering how they have become who they are."

The reason this story has gone viral and been of so much interest is because it has activated an ongoing discourse of how does a child’s gender identity actually get formed?

There would be people on one side of the spectrum who would say that gender identity is completely hard-wired, and even if you don’t sex a child they are going to develop a gender in accordance with their biology. And then there are people on the other half of the spectrum that say that gender identity is completely influenced by socialization.

So in a sense, this discussion has simply become apart of the great war on Nurture vs. Nature, even though mainstream psychology acknowledges that humans are influence by both.

For starters, I find this situation somewhat antithetical to the point the family was trying to make in the first place. As others have said before me, hiding the baby's gender from the world makes gender the most important thing about the baby. They contacted the Toronto Star and gave this story to the media in the first place, and are now complaining because of the international debate that has begun over their parenting, gender, and sex.

Furthermore the "social experiment" is about as unscientific as science can become. Psychological evidence shows that language and other cultural aspects are often more influenced by our peers rather than our parents. As baby Storm grows up, s(he) will note gender differences in the male and female sex from people around her. One of the biggest fallacies I see is that if s(he) is biologically a boy, then he is growing up with a peer who is a boy, yet already seems to be more identifying with the female gender. This will provide a pretty big bias on Storm's decisions since peers play a role in some of the defining characteristics for a human. The progressive parents seem to believe that their house is a vacuum devoid of gender and gender roles, when in fact all they've done is redefined them for their household. Even more importantly worth noting is according to Dr. Scott Lebowitz

"Gender identity is typically formed around age 3, so the infant doesn't know one way or the other."

At this point it almost seems like a moot point for the parents to bash gender.

Another interesting point is raised

Marianne LaFrance, a professor of psychology and women's, gender and sexual studies at Yale University, wonders if the family, in spite of its best intentions, will be able to interact with Storm without gender biases.

"I would be surprised if they didn't behave differently despite their best efforts," LaFrance tells ParentDish. "Little things like that can combine over the course of days, months or years."

LaFrance cites studies that have found boy babies tend to be more "inconsolable" than girls, so they get a different type of nurturing that implies "big boys don't cry." Girls also tend to be held more, she adds. Other studies have shown that when people observe a crying baby and are told it is a girl, the child is labeled "sad." When told the baby is a boy, however, observers find the baby "angry."

Also I have to call into question the decisions that Jazz and Kio have made thus far. Has it really been their own decisions or just parental coddling and encouragement for this political grandstanding? As someone who grew up next to and hung out with a boy who played with Barbies, I understand that sometimes boys may want to play with girl oriented toys and do things associated with the girl gender, and girls may want to play with boy oriented toys and do things associated with the male gender. However, in this case how much has been forced on the child according to the parents own ideological agenda? I think they are trivializing the issue for all the boys and girls out there who enjoy playing with opposite gender oriented toys because the children want to, not because the parents encourage it. Using children to push an ideological view is nothing new and I am not stating that it is exclusive to the progressives or anyone else. However, what irks me is that the couple seems to believe they are above it all. Like how they believe their house is a vacuum devoid of culture, they also seem to believe that their children are not impressionable or are being imprinted in any way.

Lastly, this progressive push forward seems to not be beneficial for gays, lesbians, or transgenders. In an attempt to make the child genderless until s(he) decides a gender, the family seems to be adding that a child simply chooses a gender, thus meaning transgendered people or anyone else who identifies a gender aside from straight male or straight female has merely chosen to do so and there is no inherent genetic and biological difference. However, this is not the case. Some individuals do seem to have the brain born into the wrong body; the female brain was born into a male body or the male brain was born into the female body. Time Magazine reviewed an interesting study that found high numbers of autism in female to male transgender individuals.

Scientists led by Simon Baron-Cohen, a professor of developmental psychopathology, at Cambridge University looked for autistic traits, such as problems parsing social signals and difficulty in dealing with changes in routine, in 61 transmen, 198 transwomen, 98 typical females, 76 typical males and 125 people with actual diagnoses of Asperger's syndrome, a mild form of autism.

"Those in the female-to-male group scored above average in terms of the number of autistic traits," says Baron-Cohen. Indeed, the transmen outscored all but those with Asperger's diagnoses on the Autism Spectrum Quotient, a scale devised by Baron-Cohen.

Baron-Cohen has long theorized that people with autism may have what he calls an "extreme male" brain — dominated by a style of thinking called "systemizing," which focuses on predictable patterns like those found in mathematics or mechanical devices.

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/...evels-of-autistic-traits/print/#ixzz1Ng8Ghbr0



Here are some other articles I have read and invite others to look into:
http://www.parentdish.com/2011/05/26/genderless-baby/
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/genderless-baby-in-canada-let-the-parents-be
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...by-well-intentioned-but-wrong/article2036155/
http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2011/05/28/parents-of-genderless-baby-defend-their-actions/
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Column+Children+aren+born+pink+blue/4834603/story.html
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/canada/Baby+Storm+gender+parenting+media/4856804/story.html

EDIT:
Adding one more source for people to look at
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-s...-dangerous-experiment-child/story?id=13693760
 
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CSolarstorm

New spicy version
Well this is quite an assignment and maybe I will return to it later.

I believe gender is a biological disposition, and that for the most part boys are going to act like boys and girls are going to act like girls. I don't believe it can be nullified simply by removing social influence. Not everything about gender is a social construct.

I think it's likely Storm will grow up to reject his/her parents' experiment after being compelled to follow his/her born sex.

Though, Jazz sounds like me. XD
 
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bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
I believe gender is a biological disposition, and that for the most part boys are going to act like boys and girls are going to act like girls. I don't believe it can be nullified simply by removing social influence. Not everything about gender is a social construct.

Oh, I agree. Certainly, sex determines some aspects of gender and that seems to be what the parents want to disprove despite hormonal and developmental differences.

I think it's likely Storm will grow up to reject his/her parents' experiment after being compelled to follow his/her born gender.

I also don't like this experiment is being done on a child. Baby Albert was pretty harmless, yet it is troubling to see experimentation done on any child.
 
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pokemon player

Sylveon, tho.
I don't quite understand this...
Storm and Jazz are nice names, though.
 

7 tyranitars

Well-Known Member
this is so unethical, how can you call yourself loving parents if you force a behaviour pattern on your kids, if they did it out of theirselves there would be no problem, but this behaviour is forced upon by their parrents.

also Nature and nurture both play a role. not just one I see this experiment fail and childrens lifes being ruined.
 

pirate555

Word.
Well this is quite an assignment and maybe I will return to it later.

Same for me; I'm procrastinating from revision so I'll have to keep my response short for the time being; I may jump in properly later...


But the way I see it, human beings naturally try and collectivise and form identities over certain things, whether they are biological differences, differences in wealth, profession, religion, culture... so even if you remove gender from the world scene, human beings will find some sort of alternative collective image which both divides and unites groups.

As for gender, in Western countries the feminist movement and liberalisation means that whilst there are still some discrepancies between men and women which have a negative impact upon people's lives, at least the law, the overall attitudes towards, and the outlook for men and women is on a relatively equal footing. This isn't so much the case with other divisive foci of identity.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
this is so unethical, how can you call yourself loving parents if you force a behaviour pattern on your kids, if they did it out of theirselves there would be no problem, but this behaviour is forced upon by their parrents.

also Nature and nurture both play a role. not just one I see this experiment fail and childrens lifes being ruined.

First as parents we can not stop but forcing (to some extant) our behavior patterns to our kids. I see this experment as quite a test and applaud the parents to let there child grow up the way it wants to
 

VizardBlue

no, you are dead.
Their not forcing anything on their child, and this isn't a experiment. Their giving Storm a choice. Once Storm is old enough, probably old enough to talk, he/she can choose to start identifying as whatever gender he/she wants. Or he/she can choose to identify as neither, or both. It's not going to ruin Storm's life unless they live somewhere where everyone is a judgmental idiot. Their teaching their children that they are allowed to identify as whatever gender they want, and they won't be onesided in it, just whatever Storm likes.
 

Dattebayo

Banned
I find this experiment completely ludicrous for fear that it might scar the child for life when (s)he gets older and becomes more isolated from the entire world. I question parents these days.
 

BigLutz

Banned
First as parents we can not stop but forcing (to some extant) our behavior patterns to our kids. I see this experment as quite a test and applaud the parents to let there child grow up the way it wants to

However that can have serious consequences, not just in the Child's Growth as apparently they are also allowing the child to determine what he wants to study and do when it comes to school work. But also the fact that it leaves them completely unprepared to face the world. While the parents will be open to male children wearing dresses and vice versa. The rest of the world is not going to be so accepting, and the psychological damage they will be subjected to will seriously hurt the child later on in life.

Parents are not just supposed to raise a child, they are supposed to prepare it for the world. These parents have failed horribly in that responsibility.
 

bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
First as parents we can not stop but forcing (to some extant) our behavior patterns to our kids.

True. Even if we do not directly influence our children, they are impressionable and pick up behavior patterns, which is one reason I fundamentally see this experiment as flawed.

http://www.nj.com/parenting/guest_bloggers/index.ssf/2011/05/the_perils_of_raising_a_gender.html

I see this experment as quite a test and applaud the parents to let there child grow up the way it wants to

But are they really letting Storm grow up the way s(he) wants to? Has the family truly shed culture like it is some cocoon that we can simply emerge from and shrug off? I mean, like I previously stated, they've just reassigned gender in their household. I don't think the family has truly made the household gender neutral. There are small cues the parents are giving their children whether they know and accept them or not.

SunnyC, here is a source that I think helps articulate your point:
http://www.livescience.com/14323-genderless-baby-gender-anxiety.html
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
However that can have serious consequences, not just in the Child's Growth as apparently they are also allowing the child to determine what he wants to study and do when it comes to school work. But also the fact that it leaves them completely unprepared to face the world. While the parents will be open to male children wearing dresses and vice versa. The rest of the world is not going to be so accepting, and the psychological damage they will be subjected to will seriously hurt the child later on in life.

Parents are not just supposed to raise a child, they are supposed to prepare it for the world. These parents have failed horribly in that responsibility.

I disagree, Storm has the chance to be a boy or a girl, and only storm telling freinds its true gender will make it problomatic. If storm choses to be a boy and acts and dresses as a boy who will know. Also if storm dresses like a girl who will know. The problem will only really arise at puberty and at that time I would hope that storms freinds are true freinds.
 

bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
Their not forcing anything on their child, and this isn't a experiment.

The parents have called it a "social experiment."

It's not going to ruin Storm's life unless they live somewhere where everyone is a judgmental idiot.

Canada

Their teaching their children that they are allowed to identify as whatever gender they want, and they won't be onesided in it, just whatever Storm likes.

But that doesn't really draw any conclusive evidence as to children and gender... Storm will be influenced by his/her peers, namely his/her older brothers, and if s(he) is a boy then s(he) will be influenced by their gender decisions. Furthermore, I'm still questioning Jazz and Kio's decisions as I wonder how much was influenced by the parents.
 

bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
Everyone will know what it is when it gets boners/grows breasts/voice changes/facial features develop.

We will know the sex of the child. The baby will supposedly "choose" his/her own gender identity.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Everyone will know what it is when it gets boners/grows breasts/voice changes/facial features develop.

Alleviate while I agree that puberty will reveal this, the question is will people that know storm care? Yeah some of storms freinds may be weirded out for a while, but after that then I think that most will get use to it b/c they will realize that storm is still storm
 
...Kathy Witerick... and David Stocker...have decided to raise their third child ... as a "social experiment.

I didn't read beyond here. I hope the authorities take their child away from them. This is sick. Children are not experiments. It's just sick that they would value their ideology more than their child.
 

BigLutz

Banned
I disagree, Storm has the chance to be a boy or a girl, and only storm telling freinds its true gender will make it problomatic. If storm choses to be a boy and acts and dresses as a boy who will know. Also if storm dresses like a girl who will know. The problem will only really arise at puberty and at that time I would hope that storms freinds are true freinds.

You do realize we are talking about 12 and 13 year olds here, some of the most ruthless creatures on the face of this Earth. For a child to be one gender, and then it be revealed that it is another gender, the psychological pain the child will go through at school and life around them would be horrible.
 
Damn, this is why I hate hippies. That kid will be chewed up by soceity for the freak he is.

Storm's parents were complete retards, stunting their child with such a silly 'experiment'. I think a better way to experiment on one's child would be either to lock it in isolation, in a dull room, or to sexually groom it to be your lover.

But that's just my opinion on parenting.
 
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