Ban the burka!

[Lancer786]

Were the robbers women in Burka?

and what if tomorrow some robbers with cross in the neck rob again? or someone wearing vodafone t-shirt?

 

[BigLutz]

So these details are very important in identifying a criminal. With some makeup I could give myself a scar and a couple moles and dye my hair black, then disguise its length by putting it under a hat. These would not only mask my identity in a way that would not cause people to be suspicious but provide details that would put the police on the wrong trail entirely. Should these methods be illegal?

Of course not, but then again the vast majority of Criminals are not going to go to such a length to mask their identity, especially when they can pull on a article of clothing such as a Burka to mask their identity.

I wasn't aware that thieves commonly used burkas. In fact, I would say they are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

From the looks of it Burka crime is rising in France, including a attack on Banks, and Post Offices, apparently it is becoming enough of a problem in France to warrant such a ban.

No, you don't have to take off the burka until you are in the partitioned area. As long as men can't see them there is no reason why they have to wear it.

Problem is you don't HAVE to take it off, you could keep it on, and it is doubtful anyone would care until they realize that a crime is being committed.

 

[chuboy]

Of course not, but then again the vast majority of Criminals are not going to go to such a length to mask their identity, especially when they can pull on a article of clothing such as a Burka to mask their identity.

From the looks of it Burka crime is rising in France, including a attack on Banks, and Post Offices, apparently it is becoming enough of a problem in France to warrant such a ban.

I disagree there. Criminals will go to whatever length they need to. Nobody here should contest that banning the burka will have a negligible effect on crime. It really is not going to stop them. Even users here can suggest other ways one could hide their identity long enough to rob a shop.

Hell, there was even a guy who was robbing big businesses by posting himself in a parcel to buildings, unwrapping himself at night-time, stealing the loot, then posting himself home again. And he did this unnoticed for a very long period of time.

Do you think if we banned large parcels that would stop crime at all?

Problem is you don't HAVE to take it off, you could keep it on, and it is doubtful anyone would care until they realize that a crime is being committed.

No, in such a scenario you would have to take off the burka before you could make any transaction so that camera evidence could be useful if something did occur.

I don't think burkas should be legislated illegal, but if shops really think it's that bad they should be allowed to have a no burka rule at the risk of being called racist.

 

[BigLutz]

I disagree there. Criminals will go to whatever length they need to. Nobody here should contest that banning the burka will have a negligible effect on crime. It really is not going to stop them. Even users here can suggest other ways one could hide their identity long enough to rob a shop.

They will go with what ever easy lengths they can when they need to, which is why you will see criminals use ski masks and burquas instead of large amounts of make up. These guys are looking for the easy way to make money and the easiest way to hide their identity. Now while it may have a negligible effect on crime, it will most certainly take away a opportunity for the criminals to have the element of surprise, and for several of them allow them to be captured as they will just go in uncovered. Nobody here should disagree with that either.

Hell, there was even a guy who was robbing big businesses by posting himself in a parcel to buildings, unwrapping himself at night-time, stealing the loot, then posting himself home again. And he did this unnoticed for a very long period of time.

Do you think if we banned large parcels that would stop crime at all?

Which is a very rare occurrence, again the vast majority of criminals are looking for the easiest way to grab money and go.

No, in such a scenario you would have to take off the burka before you could make any transaction so that camera evidence could be useful if something did occur.

By the time they make it up to the teller to make the transaction in which they would be required to take off the burka, they are going to be able to produce a gun and rob the place, thus the burka still has given them the desired effect in that they were able to make it all the way into the bank, and to the teller wearing garb that covers your entire body with out arising any suspicion.

 

[bel9]

The difference though is that if a man walks into a bank with a Ski Mask on or any other place, he is instantly going to be recognized and the panic button will be pushed, and any cop or security at the bank will spring into action. On the other hand if some one walks up wearing a Burka, they will be able to avoid detection until they have their gun out. So not only does it keep people from viewing who ever is on the other side of the gun, it also doesn't give people the added few seconds needed during a robbery to prevent it or alert the authorities.

Extreme hypothetical based solely on your assumptions. There is no evidence that proves these claims. People still rob banks without burkas. People still surprisingly rob banks without burkas. You assume that police officers and guards and bank tellers would emptymindedy stare at the person in the burka without any suspicion- officers are trained to be suspicious and look for things out of the ordinary and for the most part burkas in Western cultures are still out of the ordinary.

Except they are not going to mask all of your features. Hoodies will shield your hair and forehead. Scarves your neck, and have no business really going as far up as your mouth.

Actually there are plenty of scarves and jackets that go up to above your mouth to help keep your face warm. Yes they do have a business going above your mouth.
Also, interestingly enough, a burka wearing bandit also used sunglasses. So a hoodie cover the head and hair, sunglasses (eye masking) and the bandanna around the nose and mouth are legit ways to rob a bank without a burka.
(Which is why the burka won't make it in America as successful means to rob a bank)

And even then there are identifying features you would not be able to hide, a distinguishing scar left on your cheek from your victum or that you already had, a mole or other kind of distinction that can stand out. There are many different things on a face that cannot be shielded under every day clothes or even severe winter clothes, that would under the full covering of a Burka.

As previously posted there are plenty of cosmetic applications that can be applied to help give yourself false distinguishing features. There are also plenty of hardcore winter clothes that cover as much as burkas. You may need to go someplace colder to see them. Those mixed with sunglasses making identifying someone near impossible, yet still lead you to believe they are an average Joe.

Either way the Burka provides better cover than some one walking into a bank with a ski mask on.

No it doesn't. You don't think bank tellers don't notice someone with a burka come in? You don't think they aren't suspicious or taken back?

Of course not, but then again the vast majority of Criminals are not going to go to such a length to mask their identity, especially when they can pull on a article of clothing such as a Burka to mask their identity.

Criminals will go to any length to mask their identity. And quite honestly: why would you want to use a cumbersome burka when you can go with the more classics?

http://image30.webshots.com/30/9/66/73/255096673uwDoLR_ph.jpg

From the looks of it Burka crime is rising in France, including a attack on Banks, and Post Offices, apparently it is becoming enough of a problem in France to warrant such a ban.

Of course it is rising- from zero to a handful. All I see are the same couple of stories over and over again. It may seem like their are hoards of robbers using burkas to sack all of France and that France is in some crises state of anarchy- but they aren't. Once the crimes are rapidly rising and burkas are the next gangwear for robbing banks I may be willing to support a ban. (But that is a pretty big hypothetical like the ones you present).

They will go with what ever easy lengths they can when they need to, which is why you will see criminals use ski masks and burquas instead of large amounts of make up. These guys are looking for the easy way to make money and the easiest way to hide their identity. Now while it may have a negligible effect on crime, it will most certainly take away a opportunity for the criminals to have the element of surprise, and for several of them allow them to be captured as they will just go in uncovered. Nobody here should disagree with that either.

You actually almost answer your own question from earlier. They will go through any lengths to do what they need to. Meaning if hypothetically there was a significant rise in burka crimes then outlawing burkas would not deter any crimes, the robbers would still find ways to rob stores.

Which is a very rare occurrence, again the vast majority of criminals are looking for the easiest way to grab money and go.

okay- easiest way- ski masks or the style from my previously posted picture. The burka is much actually more cumbersome than that outfit of regular clothes and a mask and would make getting away even harder.

Your arguments seem to be falling apart. They are based on extremely hypothetical situations that do not even seem to reflect the reality of the situations. Your argument seems to come down to burkas are widely used methods of robbing places, which in reality they aren't. We can sit here and hash out as many hypotheticals as you want. I think you know that banning burkas would not deter any crime and would not solve any problems. I mean these robbers are robbing banks with guns. Would banning guns solve the problem? No. Would banning burkas solve the problem? No.

 

[Tyrant Tar]

You don't think bank tellers don't notice someone with a burka come in? You don't think they aren't suspicious or taken back?

With all this political correctness and burkas being linked with Islam, no one *should* be suspecting anyone with a burka doing anything illegal just because of the burka.

 

[chuboy]

With all this political correctness and burkas being linked with Islam, no one *should* be suspecting anyone with a burka doing anything illegal just because of the burka.

If I were a security guard, I would be wary of anybody who appeared to making an effort to mask their own identity.

In my hypothetical 'burka-friendly' bank situation, burka-clad people would not do business in the same area as everyone else. According to their beliefs, men are not allowed to see them. It would be sacreligious to remove the burka when they are in the view of men.

So, the steps for making a transaction would be:
1. Enter the bank
2. Speak to the security guard or general assistant
3. Be directed to a separate, isolated room away from the prying eyes of men
4. Remove your burka while undertaking your business with a female bank teller

Obviously, if the robber was a male, then the burka disguise would fail from step 2, otherwise if they turned out to be a criminal then obviously there is camera footage of them with the burka removed.

But really, these are very isolated events. I'm not aware of this being a regular occurence even in areas where burkas are considered the norm - so they seem like a futile way to go around 'unnoticed'. They generally stand out more than people who are dressed 'as the Romans are', so to speak.

 

[BigLutz]

Extreme hypothetical based solely on your assumptions. There is no evidence that proves these claims. People still rob banks without burkas. People still surprisingly rob banks without burkas. You assume that police officers and guards and bank tellers would emptymindedy stare at the person in the burka without any suspicion- officers are trained to be suspicious and look for things out of the ordinary and for the most part burkas in Western cultures are still out of the ordinary.

You do realize that the places where the Burka is being banned or talked about being banned, his had a increasing rise in Burkas to the point it is becoming more and more common place. These places being France and the rest of Eastern Europe. Thus the idea that they are going to apply the same level of suspicion to some one walking in with a Burka as they would as some one walking in with a Ski Mask is absolutely ignorant.

Actually there are plenty of scarves and jackets that go up to above your mouth to help keep your face warm. Yes they do have a business going above your mouth.
Also, interestingly enough, a burka wearing bandit also used sunglasses. So a hoodie cover the head and hair, sunglasses (eye masking) and the bandanna around the nose and mouth are legit ways to rob a bank without a burka.
(Which is why the burka won't make it in America as successful means to rob a bank)

And anyone walking in with such things would be instantly trigger the same amount of suspicion as some one walking in with a ski mask. However as I state above, as common place as Burkas are in Eastern European Countries the suspicion does not arise to the same level.

As previously posted there are plenty of cosmetic applications that can be applied to help give yourself false distinguishing features. There are also plenty of hardcore winter clothes that cover as much as burkas. You may need to go someplace colder to see them. Those mixed with sunglasses making identifying someone near impossible, yet still lead you to believe they are an average Joe.

Again one, the colder clothes, to the extent would instantly trigger suspicion, especially in a bank. With the cosmetic application, as I also stated, criminals are going for the cheaper and most time efficient option. Why spend all the money and time to buy such applications, when you can slip on a Burka and walk into a bank with absolutely little to no suspicion.

No it doesn't. You don't think bank tellers don't notice someone with a burka come in? You don't think they aren't suspicious or taken back?

In the places it is being banned? No.

Criminals will go to any length to mask their identity. And quite honestly: why would you want to use a cumbersome burka when you can go with the more classics?

http://image30.webshots.com/30/9/66/73/255096673uwDoLR_ph.jpg

Picture doesnt load.

Of course it is rising- from zero to a handful. All I see are the same couple of stories over and over again. It may seem like their are hoards of robbers using burkas to sack all of France and that France is in some crises state of anarchy- but they aren't. Once the crimes are rapidly rising and burkas are the next gangwear for robbing banks I may be willing to support a ban. (But that is a pretty big hypothetical like the ones you present).

Seeing as those in France are seeing the rise in crime, as the now easy option to get around Bank Security, they have a right to nip it in the bud before it does get out of control.

You actually almost answer your own question from earlier. They will go through any lengths to do what they need to. Meaning if hypothetically there was a significant rise in burka crimes then outlawing burkas would not deter any crimes, the robbers would still find ways to rob stores.

They will, but it will not either A: totally obscure the face, thus allowing for facial recognition. or B: Allow them to slip into the bank with out causing alarm. The Burka gives robbers both of these options, very little if anything else does the same.

okay- easiest way- ski masks or the style from my previously posted picture. The burka is much actually more cumbersome than that outfit of regular clothes and a mask and would make getting away even harder.

Again your picture wouldnt load.

Your arguments seem to be falling apart. They are based on extremely hypothetical situations that do not even seem to reflect the reality of the situations. Your argument seems to come down to burkas are widely used methods of robbing places, which in reality they aren't. We can sit here and hash out as many hypotheticals as you want. I think you know that banning burkas would not deter any crime and would not solve any problems. I mean these robbers are robbing banks with guns. Would banning guns solve the problem? No. Would banning burkas solve the problem? No.

Your ignorance continues to have your argument fall apart. You do not realize that the rise of muslims in Eastern Europe has seen a sharp rise in Burkas, thus they are becoming common place on the street. That they provide a cheap and easy way to slip into the bank with out suspicion and with out being identified, and that crime continues to increase using this method. Will it stop crime? No but I never said it would, I said it would be easier to identify the attacker, and it would keep them from being able to move around with out suspicion.

 

[Cutiebunny]

If they are so bent on a terrorist act with something strapped to them what is stopping them from disguising themselves as fat, wearing heavy coats, etc. Or the most appealing one (sarcasm) sticking it in orifices. There are plenty of other ways terrorists can hide bombs- we already know that.

Burkas hide your shape. They hide your face. You can stick someone in a burka and you would have no clue as to what their shape was. To put it bluntly, the burka is a freakin' blanket.

Anyone with any kind of training can pick out when someone has strapped stuff to themselves. Law enforcement officers do this all the time - how do you think they bust drug carriers? If you put bags of drugs and wrap them around your legs, it is noticeable. The same thing with pregnant women who wear big jackets to hide their bump - you notice it. And if you don't notice it off the bat, there's also the way that people compose themselves. People walk alot differently with huge weights of drugs strapped to their legs than they do without.

Your point is moot. Countries are banning the burka because they are concerned that muslims have, and likely will, use it as a way to commit terrorist acts in their country.


And, BigLutz, sashiburi. It's been awhile, no?

 

[BigLutz]

And, BigLutz, sashiburi. It's been awhile, no?

Missed you Cutie, for a while I was worried you were gone for good, glad to see you back!

 

[bel9]

You do realize that the places where the Burka is being banned or talked about being banned, his had a increasing rise in Burkas to the point it is becoming more and more common place. These places being France and the rest of Eastern Europe. Thus the idea that they are going to apply the same level of suspicion to some one walking in with a Burka as they would as some one walking in with a Ski Mask is absolutely ignorant.

You are also forgetting all the other articles of clothing I mentioned. It is not just "ski mask." Think again.

According to the AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hK82ydQcO5FBaL5caQTmftPnyNLwD9FKQVE00

They also claim it is a political ploy because only an estimated 1,900 women wear veils that hide the face.

An estimated 1,900 out of 5 million Muslims total. Let's say just for kicks only 1 million are of that 5 million are woman (I an sure the number is higher)- so the burka wearers are still only .19% or less of the Muslim women population. Not quite the rise you claim. Nor is it quite as common place as you claim.

Again one, the colder clothes, to the extent would instantly trigger suspicion, especially in a bank. With the cosmetic application, as I also stated, criminals are going for the cheaper and most time efficient option.

Because burkas are more cumbersome then you realize. Why would you encumber yourself to that extent when you are going to be robbing a bank?
You are going to shock people with surprise whether or not you wear a burka or not unless you tell them in advance you are robbing their bank.
And the burka will trigger some suspicion, especially if there is a "major burka-related crimes" on the rise as you claim. Even if there are actually just a handful of burka crimes like I describe they are getting blown out of proportion in the media so bank tellers and security guards are now aware of what can happen.

Why spend all the money and time to buy such applications, when you can slip on a Burka and walk into a bank with absolutely little to no suspicion.

Why hasn't the problem spiraled out of control yet? It has been a few years since the first robbery. Why hasn't the world gone into a diabolical anarchy of madness?

Picture doesnt load.

Sorry, Try this one:
http://img101.imageshack.us/i/meangreensn4.jpg/

Seeing as those in France are seeing the rise in crime, as the now easy option to get around Bank Security, they have a right to nip it in the bud before it does get out of control.

What are they nipping though? A different culture? Or crime? If it won't stop crime as you answered then what is the benefit of banning the burka? Satisfaction? Of what? Knowing bank tellers in France will be safer? Or that crime rates will go down? Because neither will be true.

Just googled and this is what I came up with:
http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/FranceCrimeEscalates.htm
so even ten years ago they seemed to be having a "rise" in crime, even though none were burka related.

They will, but it will not either A: totally obscure the face, thus allowing for facial recognition. or B: Allow them to slip into the bank with out causing alarm. The Burka gives robbers both of these options, very little if anything else does the same.

Again not anymore that it has happened once. They are going to be more skeptical of burka wearers.

Again your picture wouldnt load.

Again, sorry: http://img101.imageshack.us/i/meangreensn4.jpg/

Your ignorance continues to have your argument fall apart. You do not realize that the rise of muslims in Eastern Europe has seen a sharp rise in Burkas, thus they are becoming common place on the street. That they provide a cheap and easy way to slip into the bank with out suspicion and with out being identified, and that crime continues to increase using this method. Will it stop crime?

No but I never said it would, I said it would be easier to identify the attacker, and it would keep them from being able to move around with out suspicion.

Move around easier? Try to run in one.

Your culturally egocentric arrogance never ceases to amaze... Again my picture- the only thing you can make out is what race he is and most burkas I have seen reveal that as well. My arguments on banning burkas aren't really falling apart like yours either. You claim there is a "sharp rise"- a rise to about .19% or less of the Muslim population. Your situations are all hypothetical and aren't really backed up other than a handful of robberies, that now make people a bit more suspicious. I have said countless times there are plenty of Western and Eastern style clothing that can mask the identity of the wearer but you still continue to target specifically burkas, as if they are the pinnacle of disguise, which they aren't and deny any American clothing masking the identity of the wearer saying "well it is not as bad as burkas." Well these clothes I am describing are the ones that robbers actually use on a daily basis not a every-couple-of-years basis when they decide to experiment. It seems to only happen one in a while and cause a big political fuss and then die back down (then the cycle repeats) meanwhile plenty of robbers make do with other attire for robbing banks.

"New" example using your "new" logic:

Pickpocketing is rising in Mediterranean cultures. Children often pickpocket strangers and foreigners. They then run up and hug their mother, dropping the loot into her pockets. Banning "hugging in public" will not lower pickpocketing rates but it will make the pickpockets more identifiable.

You can scream that is not your logic all you want but it is what it is- your logic.
Maybe we can use that logic to "solve" that problem next.

Or maybe we can go after headscarves next... :/

Burkas hide your shape. They hide your face. You can stick someone in a burka and you would have no clue as to what their shape was. To put it bluntly, the burka is a freakin' blanket.

Anyone with any kind of training can pick out when someone has strapped stuff to themselves. Law enforcement officers do this all the time - how do you think they bust drug carriers? If you put bags of drugs and wrap them around your legs, it is noticeable. The same thing with pregnant women who wear big jackets to hide their bump - you notice it. And if you don't notice it off the bat, there's also the way that people compose themselves. People walk alot differently with huge weights of drugs strapped to their legs than they do without

*headbang on wall*
There are plenty of ways to hide bombs and etc under tons of clothes like I previously stated. What about a giant poncho? I work with a woman who wears one and for all I know she could have a bomb under there! :O There are so many different common household articles of baggy clothing that can be used to conceal weapons and explosives. i.e. Gangsta jeans are baggy to conceal guns, etc. And in a world where bombs can be tiny enough to stick in an orifice there are plenty of clothes that could hide bombs. And those police officers that catch those drug carriers are doing so at customs and air ports where that is one of their main jobs.

As least I can understand BigLutz's banking concern due to hidden identity- but yours is a bit too ridiculous, seeing as how there are plenty of ways to hide bombs under other clothes beside burkas. In fact, I would be more incline to wear Western clothes to avoid such suspicion.

Your point is moot. Countries are banning the burka because they are concerned that muslims have, and likely will, use it as a way to commit terrorist acts in their country.

Your point is again, ridiculous, unless you live somewhere where clothes are absolutely skin tight.

 

[chuboy]

I'm with belblackinblack here. Stop this xenophobic rubbish. Burkas are different - that is the only reason people don't like them.

With respect to terrorism and the burka - how absurd. Should we ban Snuggies too? They could be used in exactly the same way (although tbh if I were wearing a snuggie I'd want to have my face concealed). Why not go the whole ball and say all opaque clothing is dangerous because it could hide bombs and other stuff which the tellervision says is bad?

And with regard to the proposed French legislation:

A law banning the veils "will be a law of liberation"

What rubbish! You can't force people to be free! Depriving women of their right to wear whatever they want is just as bad as the 'extremist Muslim undertones' they are trying to stamp out.

And of course, let's not forget that getting a low-resolution glimpse of the side of your head doesn't really matter very much in the grand scheme of things. Anyone who is smart enough to successfully rob a bank obviously isn't going to just go back to their house with their newfound fortune, they will have bank accounts in false names, etc etc to hide the money in, as well as staying on the run. You still have to find the person after you have determined who they are.

 

[Cutiebunny]

*headbang on wall*
There are plenty of ways to hide bombs and etc under tons of clothes like I previously stated. What about a giant poncho? I work with a woman who wears one and for all I know she could have a bomb under there! :O There are so many different common household articles of baggy clothing that can be used to conceal weapons and explosives. i.e. Gangsta jeans are baggy to conceal guns, etc. And in a world where bombs can be tiny enough to stick in an orifice there are plenty of clothes that could hide bombs. And those police officers that catch those drug carriers are doing so at customs and air ports where that is one of their main jobs.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that law enforcement officers are trained to pick up on people who hide drugs/bombs/merchandise under their clothes? Do you know why this is? It's because people act differently when they're carrying/hiding stuff. If you strap big packets of C4 on your legs, even if you can conceal it, it still will affect the way you walk. Most people are not used to walking with extra packets of stuff on their legs. They will try to walk as they normally do, find that they're offbalance, and then they'll try to overcompensate. And this doesn't even address the fact that many people act nervous when they try to hide stuff. There are lots of ways to tell that someone is concealing something from you.

The problem is that many people in burkas aren't going to the places where cops are likely to be. They're going into banks with rent-a-cops. Most people are not trained to pick up when someone is concealing something, so, unless you're going to have cops in every building to protect people from danger, these things are likely going to continue. Eventually, if you make terrorists so desperate that they have to look for alternate areas to destroy, even your local mall will become a great target.

..unless you live somewhere where clothes are absolutely skin tight.

I live in the Western World, so, yeah, pretty much.

 

[Ethan]

With respect to terrorism and the burka - how absurd. Should we ban Snuggies too? They could be used in exactly the same way (although tbh if I were wearing a snuggie I'd want to have my face concealed). Why not go the whole ball and say all opaque clothing is dangerous because it could hide bombs and other stuff which the tellervision says is bad?

Because people where snuggies when going to the bank.

 

[chuboy]

It's the only way you can go to the bank, stay warm AND have full use of your hands!

 

[bel9]

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that law enforcement officers are trained to pick up on people who hide drugs/bombs/merchandise under their clothes? Do you know why this is? It's because people act differently when they're carrying/hiding stuff. If you strap big packets of C4 on your legs, even if you can conceal it, it still will affect the way you walk. Most people are not used to walking with extra packets of stuff on their legs. They will try to walk as they normally do, find that they're offbalance, and then they'll try to overcompensate. And this doesn't even address the fact that many people act nervous when they try to hide stuff. There are lots of ways to tell that someone is concealing something from you.

They're going into banks with rent-a-cops. Most people are not trained to pick up when someone is concealing something, so, unless you're going to have cops in every building to protect people from danger, these things are likely going to continue.

I think your logic is going in circles. You basically answer your own question. If the rent-a-cops aren't trained as you say they are to begin with how will they actually know if someone is concealing a weapon or bomb in any baggy clothes.

The problem is that many people in burkas aren't going to the places where cops are likely to be.

All 5 (rough estimate, those are the only ones I have actually found) of them? As I have previously stated in my post a few posts up the phenomena is not as large as you claim. Hard to actually make out any pattern. What you posted is a very large assumption of a pattern that does not even seem to exist.

Eventually, if you make terrorists so desperate that they have to look for alternate areas to destroy, even your local mall will become a great target.

Really? That statement is a major hypothetical and a dangerous accusation that seems to help throw your argument out the window. I am sure they will also specifically target my house as well? There will just be one giant "jihad" on America, and they will use their legions of terrorists to blow up everything one by one?
You also assume I live somewhere important that is worth blowing up and will cripple America. WRONG!

They're going into banks with rent-a-cops. Most people are not trained to pick up when someone is concealing something, so, unless you're going to have cops in every building to protect people from danger, these things are likely going to continue.

I think your logic is going in circles. You basically answer your own question. If the rent-a-cops aren't trained as you say they are to begin with how will they actually know if someone is concealing a weapon or bomb in any baggy clothes.

I live in the Western World, so, yeah, pretty much.

Uhh? Really? How much do you actually know about pop culture? Are you living under a rock? I live in America, a western world, and I see plenty of baggy jeans, large dresses, oversized jackets, shirts, etc. that can be used to conceal that kind of malicious stuff. Skin tight might not be as popular as you realize.

 

[BigLutz]

I will be posting tomorrow when I am done with my Chem Finals, I will how ever state that saying it is 'xenophobic rubbish' or 'culturally egocentric arrogance' is as pathetic and small minded as it is stupid. Your inability to understand the danger it poses in and of itself is your own problem, no one elses. And that is only one of the many problems with the Burka, including the near slavery it forces upon women.

 

[bel9]

I will be posting tomorrow when I am done with my Chem Finals

I know right, Chem finals- bleh! Also these posts are getting loooooooong lol.

I will how ever state that saying it is 'xenophobic rubbish' or 'culturally egocentric arrogance' is as pathetic and small minded as it is stupid.

How is it so "stupid" and "small minded" that I can take off western goggles and look at things from a different perspective? You just look at it from a conservative westerner's perspective and believe that to be absolute truth. And if that is not culturally egocentric or arrogant I guess I leaned absolutely nothing in any Anthropology courses. Also I guess I didn't realize looking at arguments from other perspectives rather than staying in my own bubble is "small minded" and "stupid."

Your inability to understand the danger it poses in and of itself is your own problem, no one elses.

Thankyou for the warning.

And that is only one of the many problems with the Burka, including the near slavery it forces upon women.

So you concede to the debate over safety finally? We can move on to the next subject?

I am not saying that if over time if the small number burka wearers and their children in France assimilate into French society and ditch the burkas I will shed a tear, but don't legislate it out of existence. Believe it or not your culturally brainwashed idea of "liberation" can actually seem like "tyranny" to their culturally brainwashed mind.

And if you are such a die-hard feminist I would suggest trying to fix the sexist country we still live in. I would suggest you be the change you want to see in the world starting with sexism in America.
When Islam feels they can move past the burka, that is their decision, not yours.

And if you really want to talk about an atrocity committed by the Islamic faith (since that seems to be your thing) look at their attempt at birth control-female genital mutilation.

Interesting that someone who is so opposed to government interference in civilian's lives would be such a strong proponent of government interference in a small percentage of a group of immigrants' lives.

 

[chuboy]

Exactly my point. Cars kill more people than burkas ever have. If we were really set on saving people then the obvious thing to do would be to ban cars but too many narrow-minded idiots would be up in arms about it saying that is a violation of out personal rights and freedoms.

But tell the masses that burkas are derived from the source of all evil with just a handful of convenient cherry-picked situations as proof and they will all cry 'ZOMG YOU MUST BAN THE BURKA!', forgetting that doing so would be a violation of people's right to practice their religion if they wish.

What about if we were to compare the list of burka-related crimes with a list of every situation, big or small, that involved a person in a burka who just went about their business? How bad would burkas look then?

If your answer is still 'the worst thing facing the world at the moment', then unfortunately you fall into the category of 'people who will ignore facts and statistics if they suggest something contrary to their beliefs'.

 

[BigLutz]

You are also forgetting all the other articles of clothing I mentioned. It is not just "ski mask." Think again.

And you are forgetting that it does not matter, Burkas are pretty much the only articles of clothing in which you can walk into a bank with something covering your face and not to draw attention. I DARE you to try to find something else.

According to the AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hK82ydQcO5FBaL5caQTmftPnyNLwD9FKQVE00

An estimated 1,900 out of 5 million Muslims total. Let's say just for kicks only 1 million are of that 5 million are woman (I an sure the number is higher)- so the burka wearers are still only .19% or less of the Muslim women population. Not quite the rise you claim. Nor is it quite as common place as you claim.

Ahh pure stupidity, for one are all 5 million Muslims Female? No. Are they all the age of wearing a Burka? No. Infact the number can be as low as 1 million of female Muslims of that age in France. Now you forgot to mention that number was calculated by those opposing the measure meaning they already have a bias toward a lower number. Second no where does it show how they came about that number, did they interview all 1 - 2.5 million female muslims? Did they call all of them up? Did they see them on the street visually?

Because burkas are more cumbersome then you realize. Why would you encumber yourself to that extent when you are going to be robbing a bank?

Are the cumbersome enough that you cannot run 100 feet from the teller to the door? The guy is not doing hurtles, he is making a straight dash to the door.

You are going to shock people with surprise whether or not you wear a burka or not unless you tell them in advance you are robbing their bank.
And the burka will trigger some suspicion, especially if there is a "major burka-related crimes" on the rise as you claim. Even if there are actually just a handful of burka crimes like I describe they are getting blown out of proportion in the media so bank tellers and security guards are now aware of what can happen.

Except it is not going to shock people, with that kind of ignorance it would be like saying if Blacks were committing bank crimes, it will shock people to see a black man walking into the bank. Burqas as every day wear are not going to shock people like wearing a skimask or any other face guard to hide your identity.

Why hasn't the problem spiraled out of control yet? It has been a few years since the first robbery. Why hasn't the world gone into a diabolical anarchy of madness?

Because the Muslim immigration into Eastern Europe is only now gaining ground. Men wearing Burqas to escape detection has been large for some time in the Mid East.

Sorry, Try this one:
http://img101.imageshack.us/i/meangreensn4.jpg/

And are you saying that if a man walked into a bank with that on he would not immediately raise suspicion?

What are they nipping though? A different culture? Or crime? If it won't stop crime as you answered then what is the benefit of banning the burka? Satisfaction? Of what? Knowing bank tellers in France will be safer? Or that crime rates will go down? Because neither will be true.

They are preventing many things, one of the main ones being a very easy access Criminals have to going into a bank undetected.

Just googled and this is what I came up with:
http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/FranceCrimeEscalates.htm
so even ten years ago they seemed to be having a "rise" in crime, even though none were burka related.

And now they are having a rise in Burka related crime.

Again not anymore that it has happened once. They are going to be more skeptical of burka wearers.

You do not see people walking into banks every day with ski masks on, how ever you do see people walking into banks every day with Burqas on, thus there would be a different level of skepticism.

Move around easier? Try to run in one.

You honestly think they cant run 100 feet to the door and get in? This thing is cloth not lead weight.

Pickpocketing is rising in Mediterranean cultures. Children often pickpocket strangers and foreigners. They then run up and hug their mother, dropping the loot into her pockets. Banning "hugging in public" will not lower pickpocketing rates but it will make the pickpockets more identifiable.

Alright lets use your logic, Female Genital Mutilation and Child Marriages are a main function in Islamic Countries. Life there for women constitutes in large part slavery. To keep from having a culturally egocentric arrogance we should allow Female Genital Mutilation, Child Marriages, and families to keep women in near slave like status, because that is their culture.

How is it so "stupid" and "small minded" that I can take off western goggles and look at things from a different perspective? You just look at it from a conservative westerner's perspective and believe that to be absolute truth. And if that is not culturally egocentric or arrogant I guess I leaned absolutely nothing in any Anthropology courses. Also I guess I didn't realize looking at arguments from other perspectives rather than staying in my own bubble is "small minded" and "stupid."

Again because you are trying to apply what is a horrible thing in many parts, not even counting the use of criminals, and allow it to pass because it is "culturally acceptable" for those that are from Islamic cultures. Again, the same logic would apply to Female Genital Mutilation and Child Marriages. I wonder how quick you will be to jump in support of those.

So you concede to the debate over safety finally? We can move on to the next subject?

Who said I was conceding? There are many reasons to ban the Burqa, from the slave like status it places on women, to the safety it poses to the culture. Do not be ignorant enough to think just because I bring up another point I am conceding the first point.

I am not saying that if over time if the small number burka wearers and their children in France assimilate into French society and ditch the burkas I will shed a tear, but don't legislate it out of existence. Believe it or not your culturally brainwashed idea of "liberation" can actually seem like "tyranny" to their culturally brainwashed mind.

And of course you believe the women will be able to do this, the same women who are pretty much kept in slave like status to their husbands because of their beliefs. We can wait for the generations to move away from it, maybe they will maybe they wont. While we are waiting how about we also wait on those other things in Islam that are culturally acceptable for them.

And if you are such a die-hard feminist I would suggest trying to fix the sexist country we still live in. I would suggest you be the change you want to see in the world starting with sexism in America.
When Islam feels they can move past the burka, that is their decision, not yours.

And if you really want to talk about an atrocity committed by the Islamic faith (since that seems to be your thing) look at their attempt at birth control-female genital mutilation.

Oh so wait, so Female Genital Mutilation is a bad thing, why that displays some culturally egocentric arrogance on your part as well as a great deal of hypocrisy then. Why don't we just wait, I am sure Islam will move past it when they feel up to it.