I don't see how this is relevant. belinblack quite clearly showed that the Muslims who wear the burka are prevalently French converts who choose to wear them. The Muslims who come from the Middle-East represent a statistically insignificant proportion of burka wearers in France.
His last survey came from 2000, in the ten years Europe has experienced a flood of Immigrants from Africa and the Middle East that has gradually unsettled the countries. Much of this is from war torn countries in Africa, as well as in Afghanistan and Iraq, both nations entered into wars AFTER 2000. I put up the NYT article as proof.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/02/world/europe/02iht-greece.4.16650775.html
And this argument really summarises your position on the debate. You aren't against the burka, you are against Islam. Anything which presents itself as Islamic clearly embodies the extremist views of radicalist Islam, isn't that right? Women who choose to wear a Burka aren't making a statement of modesty and loyalty, they are walking symbols of oppression, genital mutilation and terrorism. Amirite?
Actually you are wrong, I am fine with the Hajib which tends to be clothing worn by most moderate muslims. The Hajib does not pose a security risk, nor is it connected with the more traditionalist and sexist form of traditional Islam.
You can easily go the other way. I could say rosary beads represent extremist Christians, since the only people who really use them these days are hardcore Christians. Does that mean that someone who either chooses or is forced to say the rosary every day represents child sexual abuse, terrorism in Northern Ireland and misogynism?
Are the rosary beads a symbol of oppression or a traditional sign of prayer. You are comparing apples and oranges because while rosary beads are nothing more than simple beads used for prayers, especially for many catholics. The Burka is more a sign of misogynism toward women, instead of using the more moderate Hajib.
Your ability to assume correlation equals causation astounds me.
You and belbackinblack inability to differentiate things continues to astound me.
Hmm, ask them? They are hardly going to lie about why they wear a burka if it so endemic to Islamism, the word that they live by.
And what happens when they do get back home? Will the police protect them at all hours of every day? When a person already has a lower view of women, and that woman causes him pain either physically or in this case financially, he is going to inflict retaliatory pain.
Biglutz it is absurd of you to make this request. As has been stated in the article, the number was given by the French Secret Service advisers who do not frequently publish their information for the world to see. The fact the same number has been quoted in news articles all over the world gives all the credibility you should require.
As with any poll, I am asking for the break down, any other poll posted on this forum we are typically able to get a idea of the sample, how it was conducted, when it was conducted, etc etc etc. We have no such thing here, if we are going to take such a poll as fact, simple questions about the validity of it need to be answered.
Also, the fact the this issue has come up fairly recently in French politics would indicate that the survey would have been done very recently. In fact two were done, the second was commissioned because the first study they did returned a number that was embarrassingly small. If you took the time to fully read the sources belinblack provided, you would know this.
Yes the issue has been fairly recent, mostly because of the large amount of immigration coming in, which is why the "Choose to wear" poll is largely irrelevant. But as I said before, if we're going to take this poll as fact, then questions should be raised.
If you are still to insist that a comprehensive report on the study be provided, please allow me to colour all the statements in the rest of your post where would have to do the same to have any credibility. So go on, you accept belinblack's figure, or you provide full study reports on all of the coloured statements, including who, when, how and what was asked.
No problem.
Really? How can you confirm this? Who took the census, when was it done? Does it take into account holidaymakers? Are we talking about all of Europe or a summation of individual countries. Show me all the cross tabs. How many Muslims were asked, how could they tell whether they were brought up in an oppressive culture?
Fair enough, currently I am working to track down a EU report, until then.
The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain's population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe's Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys' names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.
How dramatic are the population changes? Everyone is aware that certain neighbourhoods of certain cities in Europe are becoming more Muslim, and that the change is gathering pace. But raw details are hard to come by as the data is sensitive: many countries in the EU do not collect population statistics by religion.
EU numbers on general immigration tell a story on their own. In the latter years of the 20th century, the 27 countries of the EU attracted half a million more people a year than left. "Since 2002, however," the latest EU report says, "net migration into the EU has roughly tripled to between 1.6 million and two million people per year."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hic-time-bomb-transforming-our-continent.html
Really? And how many Islamic mosques do you frequent? How many Muslims do you actually know? And of course, even if it were true, it is unrelated to the mostly French convert Muslims who wear burkas, because Islamic law is not law in France, nor is France one of 'those countries'. Thus your point is moot (and false) because we aren't discussing banning burkas in the United Arab Emirates.
I visit none, but the answers can be gleamed by not having to travel to Islamic mosques or knowing muslims, especially since most muslims and mosques in the US have been pretty much modernized. How ever Sharia Law, or the sacred law of Islam, is essentially the law of the land in many Middle Eastern countries, this would include: Lebanon, Palestine, Libya, Syria, Iran, Malaysia, Qatar, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco, United Arab Emirates. While Islamic law is not the law of France, seeing how so many legal and illegal immigrants who are currently entering Europe come from these countries that have Sharia law, and because of assimilation problems, they are going to keep practicing it in their household.
Oh really? And what percentage of US states is it currently legal to engage in homosexual relations? In how many countries is it legal to engage in sodomy? For how many years has a homosexual partnership been legally recognised for the purposes of social security in the USA, UK or Australia? How many Afro-American citizens can truthfully say they have not experienced direct cases of racism in their lives?
And is that more due to intolerance to those that are different or is it due to religious bigotry? Its harder to decern seeing how people many times are bigoted to those they see as different.
Don't forget, women have only been able to vote for what, 50 or 60 years?
Yes? And is that due to misogyny or religious bigotry? Misogyny is your answer.
The average wage for a women is still less than that of a man, and there are still occupations which a predominantly filled with males, suggesting that sexism still remains in our 'advanced, Western society'.
Actually both of these are easily answered by the Department of Labor
A greater percentage of women than men tend to work part-time. Part-time work tends to pay less than full-time work.
A greater percentage of women than men tend to leave the labor force for child birth, child care and elder care. Some of the wage gap is explained by the percentage of women who were not in the labor force during previous years, the age of women, and the number of children in the home.
Women, especially working mothers, tend to value “family friendly” workplace policies more than men. Some of the wage gap is explained by industry and occupation, particularly, the percentage of women who work in the industry and occupation.
http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf
You will find information as to how the research was conducted at the bottom of the report.
The difference in wages and predominantly male filled occupations such as CEOs has less to do with sexism, and more to do with the numbers of women who enter the work force ( Stay at home mom is not considered a workforce job ) and how long they stay into it.
So really, we aren't any further ahead than they are.
Actually we are, women may not be able to vote a century ago in the US, but in say Afghanistan before the US invasion women were not allowed to hold jobs or even leave the house with out a male escort. Homosexual marriages may not exist in many countries, but stoning of homosexuals is a common practice in countries like Iran. As for the equal pay thing, well I have already disproven that.
When you compare where we are, and where they are, the gap is immense.
Religion is still embodied in politics everywhere. Why isn't abortion legal in so many countries? Religion. Why is homosexuality illegal in so many countries? Religion. Why are/were banks closed on Sundays? Religion.
And how many of those are religious laws written in the bible and how many of those are religious principals or in the case of abortion moral principals?
What is the difference? In both cases it is the considered to be the word of God.
One is the direct word of God, the other is accounts written by men.
There are plenty of countries who still have laws which are derived from the dogma of the time they were written.
Which countries? Which laws? Are those dogmatic laws directly in religious text or are they moral laws such as a law against killing? What line of religious text are they specifically from?