Battle System Change Discussion Thread

[RileyXY1]

The battle system has been mostly the same throughout the franchise's 22 year run. But, some people think that the battle system should get an overhaul. What changes do you want to see to the battle system?

 

[SleepingGiant]

Wasn't this already verified false? The rumors came from a "chinese localization team" when we already know the localization teams don't have their hands on the copies until right before the final release.

 

[FrozTKnight]

I don't expect the turn based system to change but some minor changes we have seen over the 7 generations like abilities, natures physcial/special split megas is possible.

 

[RileyXY1]

Wasn't this already verified false? The rumors came from a "chinese localization team" when we already know the localization teams don't have their hands on the copies until right before the final release.

I don't think so. This thread isn't about those leaks. This thread is about discussing possible changes to the battle system.

 

[SleepingGiant]

So you don't want feedback on the first sentence you said?

 

[RileyXY1]

So you don't want feedback on the first sentence you said?

That's just something I said to introduce the topic.

 

[SleepingGiant]

I would recommend not introducing the topic with a rumor that was confirmed false if you don't want attention drawn to it.

 

[RileyXY1]

I would recommend not introducing the topic with a rumor that was confirmed false if you don't want attention drawn to it.

OK. I changed the OP to something else.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

I would personally like to see an expansion to larger-scale battles beyond just singles, doubles, and triples. I want them to go nuts with more options. Beyond triples you'd probably need some kind of positioning-based system where your pokémon can move around on the battlefield (still turn-based preferably) and I'm all up for that. I want them to bring Battle Royals to the rated battle spot, it's now only on the free battle spot. I want them to introduce a double battle option for Battle Royal (so four players each bringing out two pokémon at a time to a total of eight pokémon simultaneously on the field, change battle powers for spread moves accordingly). Yeah, it'd all have a bit of a different balance, but I think that's a good thing with so many pokémon. Some pokémon would be best in the old-styles singles formats, some in the doubles, and some in these newer formats. It'd be a great way to keep different pokémon very different from each other and give most of them some kind of niche and use.

I guess that's not too realistic though. In the conservative "we'll just stick with the old system" scenario I'd like to see a rebalance. Nerf Intimidate a bit for royal, doubles, and triples (let it only affect a single random opponent for instance). Give some moves like Frenzy Plant and Blast Burn a bit of a buff. Buff Inferno to base 120 just like Zap Cannon. Give some pokémon a bit of a buff in movepool. Mew can get Sketch so it can get access to crazy moves like Geomancy (so it can compete with the likes of Kyogre and Groudon, as it's banned in most rated competitions). Celebi can get a time-travelling move (for instance something that rolls around turn counters for stuff like weather and screens, and maybe a Z-Move version of it which rolls back either your own team or your opponent's team like two turns, potentially cancelling a dangerous setup of the opponent or even reviving a fainted pokémon on your side). Celebi has loads of weaknesses, it can get a huge buff to put it on the insanity level of Groudon, Kyogre, and Mega Rayquaza. Buff Dark Void back to like 85% accuracy in singles (it can keep 50% accuracy in doubles and royal). Meganium could get Grass Pelt as a second ability, or maybe on a mega, and give it Floral Healing and Cotton Spore as egg moves so it becomes a very bulky grass supporter in doubles. Maybe also give it Cotton Guard. Just a bit of rebalancing.

 

[SleepingGiant]

• I'd like to have IV's completely eliminated from the game. This would have the following effects:
  • Training a competitive pokemon is reduced to just getting the egg moves and nature, which would make the competitive scene far more beginner-friendly.
  • HP, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense should always be max except for the very specific case of mid defense and min speed Lonely nature Stakataka which I wouldn't miss.
  • Trick Room speed tiers might shift slightly, but the metagame can adjust. Since everything outside of trick room runs max speed anyway it won't affect them.
  • The Attack stat is only not max in order to account for Foul Play or Confusion damage. Especially considering Confusion got nerfed. I wouldn't mind the Foul Play buff as it's relatively minor and only really affects a handful of pokemon, such as Jynx.
  • Hidden Power overhaul. Make the type configurable. Or kill the move off entirely. Either works for me.
    works for me.
  • Most importantly: causal players literally will not notice a difference while also clearing a ton of confusion to the more dedicated players.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

• I'd like to have IV's completely eliminated from the game. This would have the following effects:
  • Training a competitive pokemon is reduced to just getting the egg moves and nature, which would make the competitive scene far more beginner-friendly.
  • HP, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense should always be max except for the very specific case of mid defense and min speed Lonely nature Stakataka which I wouldn't miss.
  • Trick Room speed tiers might shift slightly, but the metagame can adjust. Since everything outside of trick room runs max speed anyway it won't affect them.
  • The Attack stat is only not max in order to account for Foul Play or Confusion damage. Especially considering Confusion got nerfed. I wouldn't mind the Foul Play buff as it's relatively minor and only really affects a handful of pokemon, such as Jynx.
  • Hidden Power overhaul. Make the type configurable. Or kill the move off entirely. Either works for me.
    works for me.
  • Most importantly: causal players literally will not notice a difference while also clearing a ton of confusion to the more dedicated players.

Second this actually. I can understand the initial idea behind IVs was to give each pokémon its own individuality and make it different, but over time that sort of became lost as first people simply began to hack for max IVs (getting 5 perfect IVs legally was simply impossible in games like Emerald), and to combat that it became easier and easier to breed for perfect IVs. Now we have SOS chaining for IVs, legendaries having 3 guaranteed perfect IVs, Destiny Knot breeding, and hyper training, and that individuality is sort of lost when all competitively used pokémon have perfect IVs anyway. Also wouldn't mind Hidden Power to just get axed.

If I was a developer, one thing I might want to do to bring back that individuality is really expand the pokémon refresh stuff and give each nature or characteristic of pokémon its own animations and expressions. Like seeing those natures in the interactions instead of it just being something that affects your stats would make your pokémon much more its own individual than a few different numbers in the stats ever could. And just separate natures from stats entirely and leave individual tuning to EVs. And to be fair, I understand this would be an immense task for the amount of pokémon in existence and it'd most likely not be feasible.

 

[FrozTKnight]

I would personally like to see an expansion to larger-scale battles beyond just singles, doubles, and triples. I want them to go nuts with more options. Beyond triples you'd probably need some kind of positioning-based system where your pokémon can move around on the battlefield (still turn-based preferably) and I'm all up for that. I want them to bring Battle Royals to the rated battle spot, it's now only on the free battle spot. I want them to introduce a double battle option for Battle Royal (so four players each bringing out two pokémon at a time to a total of eight pokémon simultaneously on the field, change battle powers for spread moves accordingly). Yeah, it'd all have a bit of a different balance, but I think that's a good thing with so many pokémon. Some pokémon would be best in the old-styles singles formats, some in the doubles, and some in these newer formats. It'd be a great way to keep different pokémon very different from each other and give most of them some kind of niche and use.

I guess that's not too realistic though. In the conservative "we'll just stick with the old system" scenario I'd like to see a rebalance. Nerf Intimidate a bit for royal, doubles, and triples (let it only affect a single random opponent for instance). Give some moves like Frenzy Plant and Blast Burn a bit of a buff. Buff Inferno to base 120 just like Zap Cannon. Give some pokémon a bit of a buff in movepool. Mew can get Sketch so it can get access to crazy moves like Geomancy (so it can compete with the likes of Kyogre and Groudon, as it's banned in most rated competitions). Celebi can get a time-travelling move (for instance something that rolls around turn counters for stuff like weather and screens, and maybe a Z-Move version of it which rolls back either your own team or your opponent's team like two turns, potentially cancelling a dangerous setup of the opponent or even reviving a fainted pokémon on your side). Celebi has loads of weaknesses, it can get a huge buff to put it on the insanity level of Groudon, Kyogre, and Mega Rayquaza. Buff Dark Void back to like 85% accuracy in singles (it can keep 50% accuracy in doubles and royal). Meganium could get Grass Pelt as a second ability, or maybe on a mega, and give it Floral Healing and Cotton Spore as egg moves so it becomes a very bulky grass supporter in doubles. Maybe also give it Cotton Guard. Just a bit of rebalancing.

Actually you idea for a position based battle system is very nice and would be very interesting in battle but if they were to use that then accuracy would have to be removed from the game completely because it would be bloody ridiculous if there is a chance to miss because the player couldn't predict the opposing Pokemon's position and because the move has a chance to miss.

As for intimidate, I really don't know you obession with nerfing it, never have I heard of people complaining that intimidate being a powerful ability that break the meta.

For Frenzy Plant and Blast Burn being buffed is pointless because nobody is going to use it despite it being buffed other than the main story.

Not every Pokemon needs to compete with Kyorge, Groudon and Rayquaza but I'll agree on the fact that some Pokemon need some changes to their move pool.

• I'd like to have IV's completely eliminated from the game. This would have the following effects:
  • Training a competitive pokemon is reduced to just getting the egg moves and nature, which would make the competitive scene far more beginner-friendly.
  • HP, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense should always be max except for the very specific case of mid defense and min speed Lonely nature Stakataka which I wouldn't miss.
  • Trick Room speed tiers might shift slightly, but the metagame can adjust. Since everything outside of trick room runs max speed anyway it won't affect them.
  • The Attack stat is only not max in order to account for Foul Play or Confusion damage. Especially considering Confusion got nerfed. I wouldn't mind the Foul Play buff as it's relatively minor and only really affects a handful of pokemon, such as Jynx.
  • Hidden Power overhaul. Make the type configurable. Or kill the move off entirely. Either works for me.
    works for me.
  • Most importantly: causal players literally will not notice a difference while also clearing a ton of confusion to the more dedicated players.

I don't really have a problem with IVs but at least give casual players a more easier method to get Max IV pokemon, bottle caps were the right step in the direction but its needs to less rare or give players more methods for farming or hunting bottle caps rather than fishing for them in the same spot.

If they aren't doing this might aswell get rid of the mechanic

 

[SleepingGiant]

As for intimidate, I really don't know you obession with nerfing it, never have I heard of people complaining that intimidate being a powerful ability that break the meta.

I wouldn't call this an obsession. Among the competitive community, especially for doubles players, this pretty well-agreed upon.

 

[FrozTKnight]

I wouldn't call this an obsession. Among the competitive community, especially for doubles players, this pretty well-agreed upon.

Is it? Intimidate is pretty easy to counter never had any trouble with it unless I didn't predict what the opponent would bring into battle correctly.

 

[SleepingGiant]

https://twitter.com/vgcstats/status/976161524875186177

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Actually you idea for a position based battle system is very nice and would be very interesting in battle but if they were to use that then accuracy would have to be removed from the game completely because it would be bloody ridiculous if there is a chance to miss because the player couldn't predict the opposing Pokemon's position and because the move has a chance to miss.

Yeah, I'd say for a positioning based system you'd rather go for a completely different mechanic, away from all players selecting their moves simultaneously and then selecting turn order based on speed, to a system where basically you select a move for a pokémon and then that pokémon makes its move (similar to for instance chess), and build in the speed stat so that faster pokémon can move further on the battlefield per turn. Then have accuracy be dependent on distance between the user and the target (the closer you are, the more accurate), and work in spread moves based on positioning. Have Explosion hit all targets a certain radius around the user, have Hyper Beam and Solar Beam hit everything in a straight line, have Rock Slide hit everything within a certain radius around the target pokémon, and so on. You could work in the sizes of the pokémon for accuracy as well, which could give smaller (usually unevolved) pokémon a bit more of an advantage in such a format.

For Frenzy Plant and Blast Burn being buffed is pointless because nobody is going to use it despite it being buffed other than the main story.

I'd personally buff them to like base power 200 or so, or maybe give them some additional effect instead. The common perception is that they're not used because they leave you very vulnerable after use, which is very true. But with sufficient power that can still be a worthwhile trade-off at times, for instance to finish off the last pokémon on the opponent's side. The current Special Battle Season on the battle spot is 2v2 doubles without megas or Z-moves, so there's no switching, and Hydro Cannon is actually run in there on Primarina (34.8% run it). It's a very kill-or-be-killed meta, where Final Gambit Accelgor is also in the top 30. Primarina is primarily used there as a Perish Song setter next to Water Absorb Jellicent because Jellicent is immune to Liquid Voice Perish Song. So Primarina sets up the Perish Song while Jellicent sets up Trick Room, then gets a KO on the frailer opponent's pokémon with Hydro Cannon to leave one pokémon on the opponent's side, which Jellicent stalls out with Protect+Sub until Perish Song runs out for the victory.

Not every Pokemon needs to compete with Kyorge, Groudon and Rayquaza but I'll agree on the fact that some Pokemon need some changes to their move pool.

True, but I'll try to make a case for Mew and Celebi. Currently they don't really have much of a place competitively. They're just not strong enough for the unrestricted free battle spot where the likes of Primal Groudon, Arceus, and Mega Rayquaza do show up regularly, and they're banned in the more restrictive formats for being mythicals.

 

[SleepingGiant]

As long as the position-based system isn't both turn-based and simultaneous, that seems nifty. Rotations were pretty cool although the predictions were a little too deep and made the game just a tad too much about who guessed the move right rather than mind-gaming. Ally Switch is the gen 7 version of that grievance except it's plaguing more players by being in standard formats rather than a side one. This game is already way too complicated with just one position-based mechanic at a time, so they would have to make a lot of simplifications or separate movement and attacks.

 

[pokedigijedi]

I'd rather the Battle System or as the old saying goes"don't fix what isn't broke" I honestly don't feel like it needs to change

 

[Wulava]

I doubt they'll ever change the core battle system.
The only thing they can keep doing is to keep introducing new battle mechanics and variations.

Gen 2 - Dark & Steel Types, Hold Items
Gen 3 - Abilities, Nature, Weather, Double Battle
Gen 4 - Physical/Special Split
Gen 5 - Triple & Rotation Battles
Gen 6 - Fairy Type, Mega Evolution, Sky & Inverse Battles, Hordes
Gen 7 - Z-Moves, Battle Royal, SOS Battle

I don't think Pokemon will ever learn more than 4 moves. or give us a party of more than 6.

If the battle system really needed to change, it should've been done a long time ago.
But no. GF simply continued to introduce and/or improve concepts to provide players with new battle experiences.

As have been said above, there is no reason to fix what isn't broken.

 

[Mega Altaria]

I'd rather not have the battle system change drastically because I don't think that will capture the essence of the Pokémon battle that we all grew up with. However I'd like Triple and Rotation Battles to return because they may not lag as much on the Switch compared to the 3DS.