Battle System Change Discussion Thread

[Mega Altaria]

As I stated, PvP battles would not be affected by the system. The real time speed, as it does now, would only apply to NPCs.

Yeah it should be limited to NPCs. Along with that, I'd also like an option to change between that battle system and the old battle system.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Yeah it should be limited to NPCs. Along with that, I'd also like an option to change between that battle system and the old battle system.

Are you inferring you would want to be able to choose how you battle NPCs?

If so, may I ask why?

 

[FrozTKnight]

Animated speed is irrelevant. There are plenty of slow moving characters in Final Fantasy that fair well in this system. Hecatoncheir, a Summon in Final Fantasy XIII, is very slow and hardly moves, yet is one of the most difficult opponents to fight.

Where did I mention "animation speed"? I said it wouldn't work for every Pokemon, Metapod barely moves, most aquatic Pokemon shouldn't be able to move like land Pokemon (its already funny that they levitate in regular battles)

 

[Orphalesion]

Where did I mention "animation speed"? I said it wouldn't work for every Pokemon, Metapod barely moves, most aquatic Pokemon shouldn't be able to move like land Pokemon (its already funny that they levitate in regular battles)

I really don't know from where the problem with Metapod or aquatic Pokemon arise in relation to an ATB system. It is not at all a system where characters move about a lot, or at all, anymore than in the complete turn based system we have right now. The difference would probably be more along the lines that multi-battles become the norm.

So let's say you have a Goldeen and a Horsea, and your opponent has two Metapod. The Goldeen and the Horsea would float around on your side of th ebattle field, just as they do now and on the other side the Metapods would sit there as usual. Due to Metapod being so slow their ATB gauge would fill very slowly, while your Pokemons' ATB gauge would fill up relatively quickly.
Once the Pokemon can move you give them their command and they'd perform their attacking animation, which would be all the movement they'd do.

What PrinceOfFacade however keeps omitting is that every Final Fantasy game that employs the ATB system has the option to toggle said system between "active" and "wait" mode. In active mode the opponent will attack as soon as their gauge is full, in wait mode, the opponent will take no actions while you are choosing moves for your character(s).

 

[FrozTKnight]

I really don't know from where the problem with Metapod or aquatic Pokemon arise in relation to an ATB system. It is not at all a system where characters move about a lot, or at all, anymore than in the complete turn based system we have right now. The difference would probably be more along the lines that multi-battles become the norm.

So let's say you have a Goldeen and a Horsea, and your opponent has two Metapod. The Goldeen and the Horsea would float around on your side of th ebattle field, just as they do now and on the other side the Metapods would sit there as usual. Due to Metapod being so slow their ATB gauge would fill very slowly, while your Pokemons' ATB gauge would fill up relatively quickly.
Once the Pokemon can move you give them their command and they'd perform their attacking animation, which would be all the movement they'd do.

What PrinceOfFacade however keeps omitting is that every Final Fantasy game that employs the ATB system has the option to toggle said system between "active" and "wait" mode. In active mode the opponent will attack as soon as their gauge is full, in wait mode, the opponent will take no actions while you are choosing moves for your character(s).

I don't think that type of gameplay would fit Pokemon, pokemon colosseum is a realistic espectation of what the battle could look like and if we are being generous maybe something like Persona 5 would be possible too.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Where did I mention "animation speed"? I said it wouldn't work for every Pokemon, Metapod barely moves, most aquatic Pokemon shouldn't be able to move like land Pokemon (its already funny that they levitate in regular battles)

You're still going on about something that is completely irrelevant.

It doesn't matter how the pokemon moves. All that matters is the timing of events. The player selects commands and the NPC attacks routinely at will. A character doesn't even have to move for an attack to be implemented; coding is just denoted to express when the character attacks. Movement is completely separate.

You're worried about the wrong things, man.

 

[Mega Altaria]

Are you inferring you would want to be able to choose how you battle NPCs?

If so, may I ask why?

If the battling style you mentioned should only limited to NPCs and shouldn't be applied to Link Battles and online battles then how in any way is a player meant to adapt to the online battling scene after playing through the entire game with the new battle system? And how are players going to adapt to the older battling system of the Link Battle if they just want to have a fun battle? To solve this issue, both battling styles could be incorporated into the game and they are used in the game interchangeably. Players can be taught how to use the two battling styles in-game.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

If the battling style you mentioned should only limited to NPCs and shouldn't be applied to Link Battles and online battles then how in any way is a player meant to adapt to the online battling scene after playing through the entire game with the new battle system?

Because they would have already played previous games, and thus know how to battle online.

This would only affect new players, and just barely. If the turned-based mechanic of ATB applies only to the player, which it does, then both players battling will be using turn-based, just as we already do now. As far as online and link battles go, nothing changes.

 

[Mega Altaria]

Because they would have already played previous games, and thus know how to battle online.

This would only affect new players, and just barely. If the turned-based mechanic of ATB applies only to the player, which it does, then both players battling will be using turn-based, just as we already do now. As far as online and link battles go, nothing changes.

Yes I was referring to how the new system will affect new players and there is a potential that some of them will get turned off the online competitive scene because they are too used to the new system.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Yes I was referring to how the new system will affect new players and there is a potential that some of them will get turned off the online competitive scene because they are too used to the new system.

And that will fall into the line of "You can't please everyone."

While I am all for making things optional, holding discretion over an entire gameplay style is a bit too much (or really, way too much). It honestly wouldn't kill them to take two seconds to realize all players are using turn-base. It also wouldn't kill them to talk to the NPCs we all know would be in the game to explain these features.

Even with all of that, the amount new players period, let alone new players who would be dissatisfied, is minuscule compared to the rest of the player population. It's not worth putting forth the effort for that small group of people.

 

[Orphalesion]

And that will fall into the line of "You can't please everyone."

While I am all for making things optional, holding discretion over an entire gameplay style is a bit too much (or really, way too much). It honestly wouldn't kill them to take two seconds to realize all players are using turn-base. It also wouldn't kill them to talk to the NPCs we all know would be in the game to explain these features.

Even with all of that, the amount new players period, let alone new players who would be dissatisfied, is minuscule compared to the rest of the player population. It's not worth putting forth the effort for that small group of people.

Uhmm....first of all an ATB system is still a turn based system, it's just a little bit more dynamic, second of all, and what you keep ignoring, is that ATB systems in games can usually be configured so that the opponent can't do anything while you are selecting attacks, making them effectively turn based.

Then "you can't please everyone"? Dude, it's not about pleasing everyone, it's about making the game accessible for newcomers, Pokemon is target at kids, so newcomers will always be an important demographic. I doubt the majority of the playerbase for Pokemon is people who have been playing since gen 1...And it's in general not a good idea to make things more complicated for new players, since eventually everybody will move on from something, so you need new people coming in.

 

[Mega Altaria]

It honestly wouldn't kill them to take two seconds to realize all players are using turn-base. It also wouldn't kill them to talk to the NPCs we all know would be in the game to explain these features.

And inevitably for something very new like that there will be an in-battle tutorial as well just to demonstrate how the battle system really works.

 

[SleepingGiant]

And inevitably for something very new like that there will be an in-battle tutorial as well just to demonstrate how the battle system really works.

That is unless they know why Megaman X is the best game ever.

 

[PrinceOfFacade]

Uhmm....first of all an ATB system is still a turn based system, it's just a little bit more dynamic

That is exactly my point. lol

second of all, and what you keep ignoring, is that ATB systems in games can usually be configured so that the opponent can't do anything while you are selecting attacks, making them effectively turn based.

Which would defeat the purpose of having ATB in the first place. Thus, there would be no point in having it.

Then "you can't please everyone"? Dude, it's not about pleasing everyone, it's about making the game accessible for newcomers, Pokemon is target at kids, so newcomers will always be an important demographic. I doubt the majority of the playerbase for Pokemon is people who have been playing since gen 1...And it's in general not a good idea to make things more complicated for new players, since eventually everybody will move on from something, so you need new people coming in.

And we've had changes to the battle mechanic every game since Gen 2. Now is not the time to be looking out for the new guy.

Catering to the young and new is the major thing hindering these games. We need to stop making it 'easier' for them, and let them play the game. It is their choice whether or not they want to learn the mechanics. Pokkén Tournament has two separate fighting mechanics which you use constantly; you either learn both or you don't play. Simple.

And as I told Mega Altaria, there will obviously be NPCs in-game to explain the new mechanics. If that is not enough, then no, there is no pleasing everyone.

 

[FrozTKnight]

They don't really need to change the battle system or make it more dynamic, just look at Persona 5 a GOTY nominee and that combat similar to Pokemon, and it was praised for its turn based combat. The battles were more interactive and flashy than a Pokemon game. GF just needs to do something similar.

Also if you want to make new players at ease, just change some the competitive mechanics to be more accessible to newer players without getting rid of them and it would also implement them into the main story giving the gameplay in story mode more depth.

For example if I want a EV trained Decidueye with max Attack and Speed I have to train it by battling Pokemon that give those specific EVs (and use a power item to be done quicker) but that's almost impossible in the mainline story because its time consuming and some for resources aren't available to do this and casual players don't experience this cool mechanic (which is like special training).

This is and idea I came up with that could help make it easier for newer players.

• Levelling up a Pokemon won't increase stats, its stats will remain the same even when level 50.
• Levelling up instead gives the Pokemon EVs after it levels up which the trainer decides which stat they want to invest the EVs in but the Pokemon doesn't need to battle specific Pokemon to gain these points. Once a Pokemon levels up it gains 10 EVs for each level (this also doesn't change anything to make Pokebank EV trained Pokemon unusable). And newly hatched or caught Pokemon would have 8 extra EVs since Pokemon have a total of 508 obtainable EVs.
• Only Max of 252 EVs is allowed to be invested into 1 stat.
• EV investment is would be reset if player is not satisfied with the distribution or wants to change it since the Pokemon evolved and would benefit with a different distribution.
• Pokemon level cap at 60 (all EVswould be gained by level 50).
• Levelling up still helps a Pokemon learn new moves and evolve.
• Bottle caps are now usable at lvl 60.
• NPC trainers would also have their Pokemon invested with EVs.

So say you catch a Pidgey at level 5 it will have 58 EVs available for the player to invest and each time it levels up it gets another 10. Now if the play wants they could just invest it in attack only but as I suggested these EVs will be invested the NPCs Pokemon. So you go up against another Pidgey but that EVs have been distrubted much more evenly to making the players Pidgey inferior since the NPC has better EV distribution. This would make the player think a little to what they want their Pokemon to be, a fast attacker, tank attacker, tanky staller etc.

 

[Akashin]

Is there any particular reason to revamp the system to that extent when they could just leave it the way it is and bring back Super Training (or a similarly accessible equivalent), though?

That aside, why are we bringing up P5? I love the game and all, but I'm not really sure why its combat mechanics would be any more palatable to Pokemon than an ATB system would be.

 

[FrozTKnight]

Is there any particular reason to revamp the system to that extent when they could just leave it the way it is and bring back Super Training (or a similarly accessible equivalent), though?

That aside, why are we bringing up P5? I love the game and all, but I'm not really sure why its combat mechanics would be any more palatable to Pokemon than an ATB system would be.

It was just suggestion, they don't need to do it an they could come up with a way better method than what i came up with.

P5 is essentially the Pokemon battle system designed for single screen and is way more flash and nice to look at.

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't think they need to change the battle system. The one they have now works so well.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

As far as the rumors of transitioning to real time battling, I doubt they're going to do that. It's way too drastic a change for the main series.

What I would like to see though is a more complex and unified terrain system. That would certainly change the battle mechanics. I want to light grassy fields on fire with Flamethrower. I want to electrocute sea dwelling Pokemon with Thunderbolt. Things like that.

 

[Storm the Lycanroc]

Maybe they keep the traditional turn based system and just make it more cinematic. Say Pokemon A shoots a Flamethrower at Pokemon B, Pokemon B has better stats and dodges it by jumping/moving to the side. Sure it not the same dynamic battles as Pokken Tournament but the main series game doesn't need to be that fluid and dynamic.