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Battling a Thaw in Relations! (656)

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Happy 10th anniversary to the still reigning best fight in the anime! Some fights have gotten really close, but this one still edges out
 

Blastmaster

Well-Known Member
A full decade and this battle is still strongly argued as the show's magnum opus. That is something else. Figured I'd honor that by discussing some old pet peeves others tend to have about the battle, and why I think they actually work very well.

Ash should've won without Blaze:

I've seen (mostly old) posts here and there that claim that Ash relying on Blaze for the final fight is validating Paul. That if Ash needed Blaze so much that he'd purposely get Infernape Thundered to activate it, it means Paul was right all along. And honestly? It's true. Paul was getting validated. And the show is absolutely brilliant for it.

Ash spent most of the series avoiding Paul's beliefs as much as possible, especially with Chimchar. He outright refused to train Blaze simply because Paul did. And this overly narrow mindset bit him back hard when Blaze was inevitably activated, and Ash couldn't control it at all. They did need to master it. The key factor is how it was mastered, which was through Ash's compassion. Infernape was only able to master Blaze in time because its new master gave it the strength and positivity necessary to do so.

So yes, Ash does validate Paul by taking a massive risk with that Thunder. But he also validates himself, because it's only through his and Infernape's shared bond and willpower that the risk paid off. And he was still able to prove Infernape was strong on its own merits. They made it a point in all of its major victories to knock out opponents without Blaze.

Paul should've used his own Lake Acuity team:

This one's a lot more common nowadays, that Ash deserved to get his justice against the specific team that humiliated him back then. The thing is, Paul's LA team was a direct counterteam to Ash's. He had god knows how many strategies planned specifically to exploit Ash's Sinnoh Pokemon. Honestly, the whole battle was laregly meant to give a hard dose of Reality Ensues for Ash. He blindly tries to get vengeance without any sort of plan, and thinks his determination alone will carry him through. It doesn't.

So Ash finally admits he needs to change himself. He keeps training harder and better. He starts thinking things through more. And he even brings back his reserves to diversify, preventing Paul from making another hard counterteam. And even then, when he does bring back the Sinnoh team against Paul, it's directly addressed how much of a risk it is. But again, it's only because Ash could find the right compromise between them that he was able to win.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
And he was still able to prove Infernape was strong on its own merits. They made it a point in all of its major victories to knock out opponents without Blaze.
Agreed, and this is the key problem with Ash-Greninja. Once it was mastered (which admittedly did take some time), it just activated and was used throughout every battle. Rather than only being something used near the end. Conceptually, I'm not saying there was a better way it could work given the lore they built around Ash-Greninja. It made sense within the constraints they set out for themselves. However, narratively, Blaze is more compelling because of what you just said.
 
The best Anipoke battle of all time, and the best episode of DP. Only downside to this battle was Torterra being robbed again like he is so mistreated. JUSTICE FOR TORTERRA

The only battle that comes close is Ash vs Alain and that would have been number one IF ASH WON. :mad:
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
The best Anipoke battle of all time, and the best episode of DP. Only downside to this battle was Torterra being robbed again like he is so mistreated. JUSTICE FOR TORTERRA

The only battle that comes close is Ash vs Alain and that would have been number one IF ASH WON. :mad:
Ash vs. The Masked Royal doesn't even come close?!
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Nah, I still think Ash VS Kukui was better because, unlike this Battle, it wasn't so predictable in the result and nobody in Ash's Team was a jobber (Lycanroc was but he had THE win in the last Battle, so fair I guess).


However, this is still an almost perfect battle and still very hard to beat.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Vs Kukui was looking to be my top 3 or top 2 just behind vs Paul till the third part (Torracat vs Incineroar), it's the fourth part that I hate. They ruined a completely great battle.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Vs Kukui was looking to be my top 3 or top 2 just behind vs Paul till the third part (Torracat vs Incineroar), it's the fourth part that I hate. They ruined a completely great battle.
How did they ruin it?
 
Ash vs Kukui was the best battle in SM by far but it's nowhere near Ash vs Paul
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Ash vs Kukui was the best battle in SM by far but it's nowhere near Ash vs Paul

It is actually very close, both are 6vs6 between two characters with amazing interactions (just in the opposite sites of the spectrum Rival-Rival and "Father-Son") and both with an epic climax with Type: Wild at the ending with a satisfying resolution.
If any battle is near (if not best) than Ash VS Paul, is Ash VS Kukui.
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
It is actually very close, both are 6vs6 between two characters with amazing interactions (just in the opposite sites of the spectrum Rival-Rival and "Father-Son") and both with an epic climax with Type: Wild at the ending with a satisfying resolution.
If any battle is near (if not best) than Ash VS Paul, is Ash VS Kukui.
For me Ash Vs Paul, Ash Vs Sawyer and Ash Vs Kukui are the big 3 of the series (hopefully Leon joins the fray). I am usually surprised when some people choose any other battle (ash Vs Gary or ash Vs drake come to mind). While personally I love Ash Vs Kukui more overall just coz of how epic it was and perfectly fit with the culture of Alola, ash Vs Paul shall always be the best strategic battle imo and the most stakes, while ash and Sawyer had the best camera use.
 
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