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BDSP: Worst Pokemon game?

Kage-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
The ultra games, for me, are the games with the most wasted potential. SM’s ending was a perfect set-up for a sequel, and there were speculations that some dubious empty spots in Alola could become gyms in a sequel. Well, we know how that turned out.

BDSP were highly anticipated but ultimately are bad games. All the good moments I have from playing the game is me getting nostalgic thinking back to the original DP. The graphics don’t do it for me, the roster of Pokémon is bad, the game has less content than Platinum and even things that are nice additions on paper are disappointing. I don’t want to do a stupid puzzle each time I want to rematch the gym leaders. Wish they would just show up in the survival area again.
yeah i would have been satisfied with Sun 2 and Moon 2. I think the reason that they didn't is probably because they wouldn't know how to implement the champion. they could say that the champion (player) had gone on an adventure with Lillie or something (similar to how the player from Black and White left to search for N). this "alternate story" was too samey but less interesting than the original with the exception of Ultra Necrozma.

i can't believe they didn't have a delta episode like mission for Giratina, these are definitely the least inspired remakes
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
yeah i would have been satisfied with Sun 2 and Moon 2. I think the reason that they didn't is probably because they wouldn't know how to implement the champion. they could say that the champion (player) had gone on an adventure with Lillie or something (similar to how the player from Black and White left to search for N). this "alternate story" was too samey but less interesting than the original with the exception of Ultra Necrozma.
They could’ve said that the former champion vanished while fighting the Ultra Beasts in the post game mission of SM. This would lead Gladion to found the Ultra Recon Squd thanks to the Aether Foundation and Colress.

As for the new champion - Hau is an option, but I’d prefer if he inherited the position of Kahuna instead. Lilie would be a better idea. She went to Kanto to train after all, and they could show her growth both as a character and as a trainer that way.
i can't believe they didn't have a delta episode like mission for Giratina, these are definitely the least inspired remakes
The most outrageous decision was to keep the old gym and, especially, E4 chamber designs. The Pokémon League was absolutely beautiful in Platinum, whereas it’s just bland in BDSP.
 

Kamex25

Member
Well, I think calling a game "the best" or "the worst" is subjective. In some ways, BD/SP are better than D/P for having faster-paced battles and the new Exp. Share reduces annoying grinding. Also, the Grand Underground has plenty of strong Pokémon that can come in handy. Plus, it's nice that BD/SP has Gym Leader rematches in the postgame. None of the recent games actually have that except for X&Y (you can re-battle the Kalos Gym Leaders in the Battle Chateau). I also like that walking with Pokémon feature a lot.

My only complaint is that the game feels a bit too faithful to the originals. Like I would've enjoyed BD/SP more if it had some Pokémon from the Platinum Dex like the Eeveelutions and more fire types to help balance out the games. I honestly think the reason why the games were so underwhelming is because these were the first main series games that were primarily handled by ILCA rather than Gamefreak, and they didn't have much experience with handling Pokémon games. Even though BD/SP are not the best remakes, they're still pretty enjoyable to play for nostalgia.
 

DayQuil95

Well-Known Member
Better than DP, worse than Platinum. Platinum for me is the definitive Sinnoh game until they decide to put legitimate effort into the next one, it has what makes BDSP and DP good, but further improves on that while fixing the negatives such as:

1. Ridiculously slow surfing speed, which is now quite acceptable to the point you're not moving at 2km/h.

2. More appropriate difficulty changes, such as Cynthia's, and other NPC's, Pokemon now having more competitive stats and movesets, at the cost of some levels that you can use to ease grinding.

3. More interesting plotline, with an entirely new added location in Distortion World which gives emphasis on Giratina while having the magical third game aspect of granting you access to both of the dual editions legendaries.

4. Compelling post-game with infinitely more stuff to do than usual, such as the legitimately good Heatran quest, extremely explorable Battle Frontier, which contains sub-areas inside it that I keep finding more and more stuff to do each time I get to.

5. Looker.

So while BDSP isn't the worst game in general, since it's a legitimate improvement over DP, and, in my opinion, about on par with XY, it's still a rushed game filled with mediocricity, lack of improvement over what were some of the most hyped games in the franchise with a fan-favorite generation and region, and another example of Pokemon Company knowing that fans will take 99% of **** they make, as horrible as it is. Legends Arceus was definitely the peak of Gen 8, being a breath of fresh air with a new battle system, exploration system and systems that make things more open, definitely one of the best ones so far.
 

Kage-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
They could’ve said that the former champion vanished while fighting the Ultra Beasts in the post game mission of SM. This would lead Gladion to found the Ultra Recon Squd thanks to the Aether Foundation and Colress.

As for the new champion - Hau is an option, but I’d prefer if he inherited the position of Kahuna instead. Lilie would be a better idea. She went to Kanto to train after all, and they could show her growth both as a character and as a trainer that way.

The most outrageous decision was to keep the old gym and, especially, E4 chamber designs. The Pokémon League was absolutely beautiful in Platinum, whereas it’s just bland in BDSP.
hehe i just guess i hate the idea of my position as the first champion of Alola being uprooted. I don't know if Lance defeated Red or if Red simply abdicated his position similar to Hilbert/Hilda.
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
hehe i just guess i hate the idea of my position as the first champion of Alola being uprooted. I don't know if Lance defeated Red or if Red simply abdicated his position similar to Hilbert/Hilda.
That’s something that always confused me about the Johto games! I mean Red is called invincible, so he probably resigned from his position, but why did Lance of all people take over while former champion Blue became just a gym leader?

Really wish we had something like the memory link from BW2 for the Johto games.
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
Plus, it's nice that BD/SP has Gym Leader rematches in the postgame. None of the recent games actually have that except for X&Y (you can re-battle the Kalos Gym Leaders in the Battle Chateau). I also like that walking with Pokémon feature a lot.
I think that actually, ever since Platinum, you can rematch gym leaders in every game besides BW1 and ORAS.

Platinum - Survival Area
HGSS - Pokegear
BW2 - PWT
XY - Château
SM - Kahunas become the E4
SwSh - Champion Cup and Galarian Star Tournament
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
I think that actually, ever since Platinum, you can rematch gym leaders in every game besides BW1 and ORAS.

Platinum - Survival Area
HGSS - Pokegear
BW2 - PWT
XY - Château
SM - Kahunas become the E4
SwSh - Champion Cup and Galarian Star Tournament
Loved Chateu
 

Kage-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
That’s something that always confused me about the Johto games! I mean Red is called invincible, so he probably resigned from his position, but why did Lance of all people take over while former champion Blue became just a gym leader?

Really wish we had something like the memory link from BW2 for the Johto games.
yeah Blue got demoted hard, didn't even become a member of the Elite 4 despite his team being the second strongest in the game. It would have been a cool twist if Silver had become the 8th Kanto gym leader and Blue was a boss that was somewhere else (maybe he goes looking for Red and you cross paths and battle). hehe but to go from champion to gym leader is pretty funny especially when a previous gym leader (Koga) gets promoted (how the heck was he promoted over someone like Sabrina?! she would have smoked him!)
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
yeah Blue got demoted hard, didn't even become a member of the Elite 4 despite his team being the second strongest in the game. It would have been a cool twist if Silver had become the 8th Kanto gym leader and Blue was a boss that was somewhere else (maybe he goes looking for Red and you cross paths and battle). hehe but to go from champion to gym leader is pretty funny especially when a previous gym leader (Koga) gets promoted (how the heck was he promoted over someone like Sabrina?! she would have smoked him!)
My personal head canon is that Blue and Sabrina prefer to be gym leaders because they seem to have more freedom as opposed to E4 members, who have to act according to the champion (at least it’s that way in Unova).

As for him not becoming a champion, maybe he doesn’t want to be a placeholder for Red before defeating him fair and square? Plus Viridian City is close to Pallet Town.

But yeah, it’s strange and funny that we have 3 Kanto games, Masters Ex and their cameos in BW2 and Alola yet still don’t know what exactly happened between Gen 1 and 2.
 

Tobunarimo

Bird-Brain Banter
Yes, though the game's biggest problem is that Arceus was released so soon afterward and that game kind of completely changed the game.

Might as well just say the game's biggest problem was that Arceus was announced immediately afterward and you would've gotten to the root of it all.

The deal is that BDSP had some big shoes to fill. Each remake was made in the style of the current generation's presentation - FRLG didn't look anything unlike what RS offered, HGSS looked like it was built directly off of DPPt, and while ORAS didn't fulled embrace XY's presentation it did follow through in areas to make it look/feel like a Gen 6 game.

So when you present to an audience that wanted Diamond and Pearl remakes to be just as grand if not better than Sword and Shield (as some mock up trailers showcased following BDSP's announcement, with one having a more dynamic camera, while another had more real-time battles) and you present them with "Smol Dawn" and go on about how they're aiming for "faithful remakes" while at the same time add-in the broken Affection mechanic being mixed in with Happiness since Sword and Shield and the always on EXP Share - well people are bound to get their feathers ruffled.



As for arguing that Let's Go really holds that title? I mean, let's be honest with ourselves, we've had unrealistic expectations since the Switch was even announced. Remember when Game Journalists, the moment the Switch was announced and Nintendo was all hush hush about the games until January, kept on saying they knew what games were coming to the Switch? How they said Sun and Moon, two of GameFreak's most talked about games all throughout 2016, were going to be ported to the thing?

Then we all thought we were getting Pokemon Stars on the Switch? Only to be outraged when they didn't announce it yet they opted to announce Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon on the 3DS? Even though we all said the 3DS was a dead system since the Switch was released by that point? By the way that's the real reason USUM were hated too. Ironic since the announcement of the eShop closing...




Point is, we've had high expectations for a while, and it was clear that GameFreak wasn't going to fulfill them, so they let ILCA do it while PLA essentially became a glorified tech demo for Gen 9.
 

SoraFan23

Generation 4 was how I got into Pokémon
One last thing I'll say is that this game "BDSP" was not made by Game Freak it was made by ICLA Inc. They are the ones responsible for making this game and Game Freak at the time was still working on Legends of Arceues. I hope they don't give ICLA to make Gen 5 remakes.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
*Sighs*

I wish people would realize that ILCA worked on several good games. I think they deserve another chance.

Also, I think the scope of Gen 4 had nothing to do with ILCA per se.
I think BDSP were limited because of Legends Arceus being made around the same time.
 

masdog

What is the airspeed of an unladen Swellow?
Also, I think the scope of Gen 4 had nothing to do with ILCA per se.
Exactly this. ILCA was contracted to make BDSP. They were not in control of the final product - Masuda oversaw the development of this remake.

In the end, they delivered exactly what they said they would - a faithful remake of Diamond and Pearl with modern QOL enhancements.

Is it underwhelming? Yes - it’s underwhelming compared to ORAS. Does it live up to the community’s expectations? No.

But that doesn’t make it an objectively bad game.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Might as well just say the game's biggest problem was that Arceus was announced immediately afterward and you would've gotten to the root of it all.

The deal is that BDSP had some big shoes to fill. Each remake was made in the style of the current generation's presentation - FRLG didn't look anything unlike what RS offered, HGSS looked like it was built directly off of DPPt, and while ORAS didn't fulled embrace XY's presentation it did follow through in areas to make it look/feel like a Gen 6 game.

So when you present to an audience that wanted Diamond and Pearl remakes to be just as grand if not better than Sword and Shield (as some mock up trailers showcased following BDSP's announcement, with one having a more dynamic camera, while another had more real-time battles) and you present them with "Smol Dawn" and go on about how they're aiming for "faithful remakes" while at the same time add-in the broken Affection mechanic being mixed in with Happiness since Sword and Shield and the always on EXP Share - well people are bound to get their feathers ruffled.



As for arguing that Let's Go really holds that title? I mean, let's be honest with ourselves, we've had unrealistic expectations since the Switch was even announced. Remember when Game Journalists, the moment the Switch was announced and Nintendo was all hush hush about the games until January, kept on saying they knew what games were coming to the Switch? How they said Sun and Moon, two of GameFreak's most talked about games all throughout 2016, were going to be ported to the thing?

Then we all thought we were getting Pokemon Stars on the Switch? Only to be outraged when they didn't announce it yet they opted to announce Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon on the 3DS? Even though we all said the 3DS was a dead system since the Switch was released by that point? By the way that's the real reason USUM were hated too. Ironic since the announcement of the eShop closing...




Point is, we've had high expectations for a while, and it was clear that GameFreak wasn't going to fulfill them, so they let ILCA do it while PLA essentially became a glorified tech demo for Gen 9.

That's a little presumptuous to say the reason people didn't like LGPE and BDSP is because they had sky high expectations for Switch games. There's some of that, but there's a lot more going on with them to simply conclude that the expectations were unrealistic.

For one, it's totally reasonable to expect the other Switch games to have SwSh-tier graphics. Not just because of past convention, but because of the nature of the console market that they were now transitioning to on the Switch. Console games, especially console adventure games, have traditionally been large scale, open affairs with relatively realistic graphics/proportions. You never really see a chibi, tile based console adventure game because console hardware has always been capable of more than that. Even the 5th gen consoles (the N64, PS1, etc.), with their jagged low-poly graphics that look positively repulsive today, still did not go for that kind of simplistic style of graphics and game design. And really, if you look at the big picture of what a home console is and what they're trying to sell, they kind of can't. New hardware is constantly introduced to the market with the latest and greatest tech to encourage you to buy the new one before you might naturally consider doing so. So the developers really kind of have to maximize the hardware to show that it can play games that the past gen hardware can't. And consoles especially need to do this because they're large boxes that hook up to your TV for you to sit down and play them for hours and hours. They're like the gaming equivalent of movies. They're supposed to be big and high end and impressive to justify the cost and the time. Games like SwSh, LA, and SV, while perhaps not quite what fans are expecting, still reasonably satisfy this kind of experience and visibly look and feel like something that could only be done on the Switch. Games like LGPE and BDSP on the other hand, do not and feel like they could've been made on the 3DS, undermining incentive to buy a Switch to play these games.

Beyond that though, these remakes regress in other ways unrelated to the hardware and not only do they not feel like an improvement over other remakes, they actually feel like a regression. Beyond the chibi graphics, they've been starting to exclude content from third versions and in LGPE's case, FRLG (ORAS was also guilty of this really but that doesn't excuse it, in fact that just lumps ORAS in with this), and they insist that the games are "only remakes of X version" (RS, Yellow, DP). Again, looking at the big picture of the point of a remake, this design philosophy doesn't really hold up. The point of a remake is to take an old, outdated game from a past console not being sold anymore, update it for the current console, and add it back into circulation. And not only are the games they chose to base it on outdated, but other versions of that game are as well. Emerald, FRLG, and Platinum are old outdate games no longer on the market too, so how are players supposed to experience those games now? The remakes really have to be the definitive versions of those games to properly incentivize people to buy them, otherwise again there's no reason to buy the remakes over the updated versions in question.

Additionally in LGPE's case, the design philosophy of heavily basing the gameplay off Pokemon Go and regressing certain gameplay mechanics back to the way they were in Gen 1 (no Pokemon from later generations whatsoever except Meltan/Melmetal, no hold items, no abilities, etc.) ended up being very controversial, and while the games sold well enough, you'd be hard pressed to say that they really succeeded in bringing over mobile fans to the main games in a way that a more traditional Kanto remake wouldn't given that they sold about the same as other remakes. So essentially all of that controversy was for nothing. Again, in the big picture it makes sense that this would happen, mobile and console gamers have almost completely opposite preferences so putting a mobile style game on console was a total mismatch.

None of these things are exactly asking for heaven and earth. They just don't seem to have the right design philosophy for their remakes. And given how the likes of SwSh, LA, and SV are much better received (especially the latter two) it's not really a problem of the fans expecting too much, to the contrary Game Freak/ILCA are delivering too little.
 

Kage-Pikachu

Well-Known Member
apparently ILCA wanted a much larger scope for BDSP according to some concept images but was severely limited by Game Freak. I am not sure how accurate that is of course, it was info from a youtube video i saw in the past.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
apparently ILCA wanted a much larger scope for BDSP according to some concept images but was severely limited by Game Freak. I am not sure how accurate that is of course, it was info from a youtube video i saw in the past.
Concept images are just that, concept images. They aren't exactly a 1 to 1 on what the game will necessarily look like.
This, is no way, proves that ILCA wanted to make a larger game.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
Now that I've had time to replay BDSP, I definitely think they're better than most people give them the credit for but I still think all of their criticisms are valid. The genuine attempt at competent bosses alone makes these better than most games in the series in my eyes even if Platinum is an overall better game. I don't think anyone should be criticized for having high hopes when previous remakes had similar approaches.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
Not the worse but definitely bad and you can tell that their main focus was Legend and that’s why these games lacked elegance and grace and were outsourced

I get the purpose that these games were intended as 1:1 but the games weren’t even consistently on board with that. They kept Candice Volkner and Flints lack of Ice, Electric and Fire types but kept the baked in experience share.

I did enjoy things like the Underground aspect of it and it was fun catching Pokémon from Platinum but in all reality I couldn’t tell the difference between playing those games and just playing Platinum. They kept all of the worse details of Diamond Pearl while leaving out the best feature of Platinum.

Granted they did make this game more competitive and the leauge is definitely harder (bonus points for incorporating Dawn’s in games team and you can battle her ) but things like the Battle Frontier being left out strings
 
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