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Blue's Signature Pokemon

Discussion in 'General Pokémon Discussion' started by Lord Godwin, Aug 25, 2019.

?

Who is Blue's Signature Pokemon

  1. Venusaur

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Charizard

    9.1%
  3. Blastoise

    18.2%
  4. Pidgeot

    72.7%
  5. Exeggutor

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Alakazam

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Arcanine

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Gyarados

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Rhydon/Rhyperior

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Eevee/Vaporeon/Flareon/Jolteon (specify)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Lord Godwin

    Lord Godwin The Lord of Darkness

    Inspired by a discussion under https://forums.serebii.net/threads/favorite-signature-pokemon-of-the-kanto-region.667603/ I wanted to raise the topic of who do people consider as Blue (Male) Signature/Ace Pokemon.

    I did a small table to reflect Champion/Final Battles Teams' used by Blue using the following criteria:
    - Used all main series games counting each team variation as a separate Team
    - Added Teams used in Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2 and data from Pokemon Masters.
    - Counted Sun&Moon and USUM seperately even though the Team was the same (bar the levels). This also happened with Gold/Silver/Crystal and Stadium 2 Round 1 Team. Still, as those were separate games (and not counterparts released together) they were counted seperately.
    - I also added points if a Pokemon was used in Battle Tree in SM (1 point) or USUM (a second point)
    - I used Champion and End Game Team. Honorable mentions for Raticate and Fearow who did not make it to the table as they were rejected for those fights.

    Here how it ended:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    https://www.deviantart.com/k2basior/art/Trainer-Blue-810972806

    See for the top candidates and some of the most-commonly used rationale:

    1. Venusaur (3/25):
    +
    One of the Starters
    -
    Used only in RBG/FRLG
    No presence outside those games

    2. Charizard (4/25):
    +
    One of the Starers
    Used in Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee (some consider this as an indicator who are the canon starters of Kanto Trainer Trio)
    Used by Blue in Pokemon Adventures
    -
    Not used by any Anime Counterpart of Blue
    Red used Charizard in Pokemon Masters
    Not used by Blue in GSC/HGSS/B2W2/Stadium(1&2) and Masters

    3. Blastoise (3/25):
    +
    One of the Starters
    Used by Gary in the Anime
    Used by Blue in Pokemon Generations
    Used by Blue in Pokemon Origins
    Lance who is fought right before Blue has a Gyarados so it would be a repetition
    -
    Not used by Blue in Pokemon Let's Go games
    Not used by Blue in Pokemon Adventures
    Not used by Blue in GSC/HGSS/B2W2/Stadium(1&2) and Masters

    4. Pidgeot (13/25)
    +
    Blue's Partner in Masters
    Blue's Ace in Pokemon HGSS
    Blue's first Pokemon outside the Starters which stays with him for most of the game
    -
    Not used by Blue in some early games (Yellow/Stadium) and most of the later games (B2W2, SM/USUM outside the Battle Tree)
    Same Ace as Falkner's and, to an extend, Trace
    Regional Birds seems as a weak choice for a Champion

    5. Exeggutor (20/25)
    +
    Has most of appereances tied with Alakazam
    Although people compare it to Gyarados and Arcanine, Exeggutor also appeared in Yellow and Stadium
    No other Trainer has Exeggutor as their signature
    Is one of 2 Pokemon used by Blue in his initial Let's Go games, the other one being Charizard
    -
    Is replaced by Venusaur in some of the Teams (in RGB/FRLG)

    6. Alakazam (20/25)
    +
    Has most of appereances tied with Exeggutor
    Missed only few appearances and is on all Starter-based Teams (RGB/Yellow/FRLG)
    Joins the Team fairly early and stays in it till the end
    Only missing in HGSS (returns in B2W2 and SM/USUM/LGPE), Stadium 1, Stadium 2 Rematch Team and Masters)
    -
    Same Ace as Sabrina's and Mira's

    7. Arcanine (15/25)
    +
    Is Blue's Lead in PWT in B2W2 (where the signatures/aces are usually used)
    2nd highest Non-legendary BST in Gen 1 (only behind Dragonite)
    Gary has one in the Anime and was used by him quite a lot
    -
    Not used by Blue in Yellow, Stadium 1 and 2 Rematch Team and, most importantly, Let's Go games
    Is replaced by Charizard in some of the Teams (in RGB/FRLG)
    Same Ace as Blaine's (debatable) and Marley's

    8. Gyarados (16/25)
    +
    In some Beta's Blue's name reffered to Gyarados as his Prototype name (something similar to Gyarados' Trainer)
    -
    Not used by Blue in Yellow, Stadium 1 and 2 Rematch Team
    Is replaced by Blastoise in some of the Teams (in RGB/FRLG and in the Anime)
    Lance who is fought right before Blue has a Gyarados so it would be a repetition
    Same Ace as Lysander's (debatable)

    9. Rhydon/Rhyperior (12/25)
    +
    Is a Ground-type and Blue is the Vermilion Gym Leader which he took after a Ground-type specialist (Giovanni)
    Besides Yellow was on all of his Teams up till B2W2 (later only returned in SM/USUM Battle Tree Battles)
    -
    Join's Blue's time quite late (prior the Pokemon League)
    Starting B2W2 did not appear on any main Team
    Same Ace as Giovanni's and Bertha's

    10. Eevee and some of it's evolutions
    +
    Gary used one in the Anime (later evolves to Umbreon)
    Considered as a counterpart to Pikachu (Red's Ace)
    -
    Does not appear on any Team outside Yellow

    Please share your thoughts:)
     
    shoz999 likes this.
  2. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    I think Charizard makes the most sense. I can understand why some people want it to be Blastoise on the grounds of the anime's popularity but for me, I've always felt that above all the evidence and signs there are, there is always one question that stands above all of it and one question that I've seen often made people rethink their arguments or just give up because they don't know what to say to the question. It's a simple question. Is it made by GameFreak? For those not aware of the importance of this question, something like the anime's popularity and nostalgia may not be important at all considering that Satoshi Tajiri, the creator of Pokemon, appreciates that the anime reeled in a huge audience to the games but has made it clear that the anime's ideas are not his, saying that even the most popular decision to make Pikachu the mascot was never his idea to begin with.

    With that being said, based on the fact that GameFreak loves to market Blue (or Green in Japan) with the Charizard evolution line in the early Gen 1 days of Japan under Satoshi Tajiri's leadership, that the original Pokemon games are Red & Green version and later it's remakes are FireRed & Leafgreen version symbolizing Blue's Charizard and Red's Venusaur with GameFreak seemingly leaving Blastoise behind as a third wheel, that Satoshi Tajiri said Pokemon Adventures was the closest to getting his ideas right, that they brought this canonical starter idea back alive again through Let's Go and that many on the GameFreak staff claim their favorite Kanto Starter is Bulbasaur as opposed to Squirtle or Charmander, it objectively makes sense that GameFreak intends Charizard to be Blue's starter, the starter that opposes Red's Venusaur. From a more subjective view point however, I think this this also makes sense considering that Charizard is a fire-breathing dragon that represents raw destructive power right off the bat which is fitting for Blue's more direct approach to battling often depicted in many kinds of adaptations including anime's Gary Oak. In both real-time battles of adaptations and turn-based battles of competitive, Charizard has often had an obvious and predictable playstyle which sums up as fly, burn, punch, sweep which is basically raw destructive power right off the bat. This opposes Red's battling style featured in various adaptations (including Ash of the anime) who uses a more creative approach which Venusaur the underdog best symbolizes, both in real-time battles of adaptations and turn-based battles of competitive where it's play styles are far more customizable than Charizard's, perfect for a creative trainer like Red and by extension Ash.
     
    Lord Godwin likes this.
  3. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Well-Known Member

    The Raticate that died. :D

    Seriously though, Pidgeot is always the Pokemon I associate with Blue, for the longest time I could never remember what other Pokemon he had, it was only until my battle with him at the Battle Tree in Moon that I remembered the rest of his team, and even then it was mostly due to my surprise of seeing a regular Exeggutor in Gen VII
     
  4. TRNRLogan

    TRNRLogan Active Member

    That damn Pidgeot and its non attacking moves is definitely his signature.
     
    Lunalah and Lord Godwin like this.
  5. Sicksadpanda

    Sicksadpanda Member

    I don't think Blue is really meant to have a signature pokemon. Blue does have a main pokemon in both RBY and FRLG, but they were all dependent on what pokemon you've picked as a starter. Pidgeot was his 2nd pokemon, and has always been on the front lines, so it's fair to call it signature pokemon.

    Red's signature pokemon is Pikachu because of gen 2, and yet, his name is "Red" instead of "Yellow" or "Ash". I suspect multiverse theory is in play, and we're looking at the moment where Blue never had any of the starters (and if he did, he didn't really use them).
     
    shoz999 likes this.
  6. LusoTrainer

    LusoTrainer Retro Trainer

    The explanation is more simple. Red is meant to be every Gen 1 player, and his team reflects that. Likewise, Green's team is comprised of Pokémon everyone faces when fighting him, irrespective of the starter one chose.

    As for Green's signature Pokémon, it's Pidgeot.
     
    TRNRLogan likes this.
  7. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    I disagree. Even my evidence about Charizard being Blue's starter Pokemon is far more concrete than Pidgeot's, at the moment anyway until GameFreak perhaps may give Blue a different starter in an alternate timeline and decides to make a bigger deal out of it. Say all you want about Let's Go being in a possible alternate timeline but because of Charizard's status as a starter Pokemon and the fact that Let's Go is a GameFreak product under GameFreak's direction and not some spin-off by another company is alone strong enough to support Charizard's status as Blue's signature Pokemon without the rest of the stuff I already mentioned. Not only that but I find the alternate timeline point used against me to be a very weak one on the grounds that it means very little in other potential timelines that conflict each other, that this tiny if not irrelevant detail would never been brought up had Let's Go gave Blue the popular Blastoise or Pidgeot. Whether you disagree or not, the fact is that Charizard is the first and only time to ever be confirmed by GameFreak as Blue's starter in any of the games. As for Pidgeot? I find inconsistency in such evidence since GameFreak has ignored Pidgeot in Pokemon Yellow, BW2 and in Blue's main team in SM/USUM. Yes, he did appeared as Blue's strongest Pokemon in GSC/HGSS and only as the strongest Pokemon in GSC/HGSS but we must acknowledge that it doesn't quite add up compared to other lack of appearances. I'm not saying your wrong, the HGSS appearance of Pidgeot is strong evidence but I am saying that the evidence altogether that you previously present is still very questionable, it doesn't add up.
     
  8. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    If this thread is going to continue, I need y'all to understand one important fact.

    There's never going to be a definite answer because there's not a single Blue across all mediums. There is at minimum, 3 different incarnations of Blue; Game, Manga, and Anime. Anime could be further split up as there's the main anime, Origins, and Generations because they're all technically different stories. And Game could be split into probably half a dozen or more different iterations, between RGB, Yellow, Stadium, GSC, Stadium 2, FR/LG, HG/SS, B2W2, USUM, Let's Go, and now Masters.

    No one incarnation overrides or invalidates the others. So the real answer is "It depends". Things also get especially tricky in the games for RGB and FR/LG, given his starter is the opposite of your own. One could argue some 20+ year old promotion material suggests that at the time there was a canon answer, but ultimately the Pokemon games of Gen 1 were founded on the basis of giving the player choices, and Blue's starter exists as a consequence of that choice.

    There's plenty of confirmation bias for each answer. But there's not a single one. Plus, the thing about Blue as a trainer is he's always had a lot of options, given he frequently boasts in all mediums about how impressive his collection is. So it would stand to reason that given he has so many options, it might vary a bit from one source to the next.

    So what you consider to be his Starter/Signature/Ace Pokemon is largely up to you.
     
  9. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    Actually that's not quite so true in this case as we are talking about the game canon. Here's a story I have. You see I recall one time that fans were discussing the possibility of the name of Kanto's female protagonist being Green or Leaf. Everything was subjective because there was no concrete proof at the time, a bit of fun until a certain action figure came out. Almost everyone jump to conclusions that this meant the game canon's version was Leaf. It proved that Leaf was an official name but I had to remind them this was not a product by GameFreak which they ignored and went with the action figure. Unfortunately for them, the action figure argument immediately backfired when GameFreak released Let's Go, a product that is actually made by GameFreak, which featured the female protagonist's canonical name Green. These are the facts, facts that aren't so easily ignored. This is a lesson to learn that if we are talking about the "game canon", we must also acknowledge it as part of a greater "GameFreak multiverse" where every timeline, regardless of it's origins, matters if it's made by GameFreak. It's why most, if not everyone here has ignored the anime and Adventures manga unless they can find some kind of connection.

    Honestly I'm a bit surprised about how neutral your stance is. Normally the mods here clarify which is the "GameFreak canon" and which isn't by pointing out what is made by who. I must clarify that my own answer is just one of many answers as there are other fact-supported answers that make good points.
     
  10. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    That's because there isn't a single Gamefreak Canon in the case of Blue, his team is so variable. You've said it yourself, there's not a distinct sense of consistency across all mediums. In a case where there is a single answer, I'm more than happy to set the record straight. But even limiting it to games, Let's Go =/= HG/SS =/= B2W2 =/=USUM =/= Masters and so on and so forth. It ultimately depends on which games you want to place the most stock in. Some people swear by HG/SS, some swear by Let's Go. Neither answer is wrong per se, because in those games' canon, there is a single answer. Charizard is wrong for HG/SS but right for Let's Go, just as Pidgeot is wrong for Let's Go but right for HG/SS.

    Context matters.
     
  11. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    Ultimately what I'm saying is that anything made by GameFreak, regardless of what product it is or what it's purpose, cannot be ignored when talking about the "GameFreak Canon" be it as a larger multiverse or several "GameFreak canons", whichever way you see it. I agree with the example you set about HGSS and Let's Go being as good points which I have stated previously but I do see subjective opinions like the common "Let's Go doesn't count because it's just inspired by Yellow which is just inspired by the anime" as a greatly flawed opinion since it does defy the importance of it being made by GameFreak. Ultimately though I assume your just here because you think an argument could break out? You should have no worries. As far as I know, I've never had an argument with any of these members and the same goes for them.
     

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