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Brock, Cilan and Tracey: were they really needed?

matt0044

Well-Known Member
I'll leave out XY given it's just starting. Anyways, it bugged me how Brock, Tracey and Cilan were brought onto the show only to amount to literally zilch. Little to no character arc, little involvement in any major plots. More often than not, they felt like they were added to the show at the very last minute because of some obligation to give the cast more than two people.

Mind you, I'm not against a three person group. Not at all. I'm not trying to hate them and I don't want to. But aside from Brock being a wise mentor yet quicky character in OS, he really deteriorated during AG and more so in DP. Cilan was just... there to be all bishonen-y and crazily geeky. Tracey... was just there as a stand in for Brock.

I mean, can't Ash just get Take-Out?

Thoughts?
 
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yuoke

Treasure huntin'
I guess technically not, but they had their roles still. Now clemont is definitely needed because the roles are reversed and serena would be the not really needed one.
 
well brock was needed in OS to teach ash the basics and give him advice on his gym battles, tracey and cilan they were not needed since ash knew what he was doing in terms of battling but i guess ash needed a cook
 
They all served a purpose. Instead of looking at them as teachers for Ash we should look at them as Ash's friends. They were friends that wanted to travel together. Imagine how boring a journey would be if you had to do it all alone. They all served as companions for Ash. I personally liked Brock and Cilan. Tracy was ok
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
Yes, the writers would never do a cast of just Ash and a female companion. You always need a third sidekick character there.
 

Nodame

Misty <3
Yes, a third companion is necessary to balance out the group. In my opinion, Brock was at his best in OS and to some extent in AG. I love Brock, he was a good mentor to Ash and added a lot more comedy to the show. However, I think he should have left in DP. It's not his fault, it's obviously the writers, but among the other bland characters, he was especially bland. They had no idea what to do with him after just a couple dozen episodes, but I'm glad he's gone because I don't want his character to be ruined even more. On the other hand, I think that Cilan was unnecessary imo. I don't like his personality, and I definitely prefer Brock over Cilan. They should've at least dropped Cilan's "It's evaluation time!,"that battle was spicy" I cant stand those overused lines. Tracey was OK.
 
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matt0044

Well-Known Member
well brock was needed in OS to teach ash the basics and give him advice on his gym battles,

And Gym Leader Misty couldn't?

As for being Ash's cook, can't he get take out?

Imagine how boring a journey would be if you had to do it all alone.

Never said Ash needed to be alone so much as he doesn't need a third wheel that does zilch for the story and lacks even his own arc (not that it couldn't work but as is...)

Yes, the writers would never do a cast of just Ash and a female companion. You always need a third sidekick character there.

Why does there need to be a third sidekick just because? Ash and Misty had enough chemistry to work off each other just fine (along with May, Dawn, etc). Honestly, the writers were just making things harder on themselves.
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
Brock was good in Kanto/Johto and he was necessary in OS. AG he started to dip, but he should have left the group and returned home in BF when the group returned to Kanto. In DP, he wasn't needed at all, and Ash and Dawn should have traveled alone - they had plenty of chemistry with one another, and by that point, Ash didn't need that older mentor in Brock when he himself was quite mature and serious in DP.

Regarding Tracey, Ash and Misty should have traveled alone in Orange Islands. OI's subplot was basically AshXMisty anyway, and it would have fit for them to travel alone and depend on each other more. Tracey wasn't needed at all other than to just have a placeholder third sidekick.

Clemont is needed for sure - in fact you could argue that it's Serena who's the one that's not really needed.
 

chalkus

Well-Known Member
I don't understand why people keep saying Brock was ruined. He was a support character in the beginning and a support character by the end. I can understand saying Brock was stagnant, but ruined? Makes no sense to me.

Again, I would rather see the journey of a character I know continue than to see a copy of one run around for one season before being axed.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
I don't understand why people keep saying Brock was ruined. He was a support character in the beginning and a support character by the end. I can understand saying Brock was stagnant, but ruined? Makes no sense to me.

Again, I would rather see the journey of a character I know continue than to see a copy of one run around for one season before being axed.

What was the point of Brock by DP? He had already run his course by the end of Hoenn, it really was nonsensical why he kept coming back for multiple generations only for the writers to completely ignore him.

This is why when DP was airing everyone knew from the start it would be his final saga. I remember many people correctly predicting back in 2007 or so when DP began that this would probably be the end of Brock for good. Sure enough it turned out to be true, because even when CIlan left its why Brock hasn't returned for XY either.
 

OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
I would disagree with Brock. Probably Cilan and Clemont and Brock up until DP. But if you look back, Brock was a huge impact on the show. Tracey was obviously there to be there, it was even confirmed.
 

chalkus

Well-Known Member
So it's better to replace Brock with copies of himself? Cilan was Brock obsessed with cooking, Tracey was Brock minus any redeeming skills and personality and Clemont is Brock obsessed with inventions. I'm hoping that we can get some cameos from Brock like we did with Gary during XY and hopefully have him return for the next region.
 

Pikachu Fan Number Nine

Don't Mess wit Texas
Brock was the best straight man Ash and Misty ever had. During BW, Ash acted as the straight man to Cilan and Iris. But I can tell you Brock did a better job at it. I can tell you there would have been even more of a romantic subplot if it was just Ash and Misty in the OS.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
So it's better to replace Brock with copies of himself? Cilan was Brock obsessed with cooking, Tracey was Brock minus any redeeming skills and personality and Clemont is Brock obsessed with inventions. I'm hoping that we can get some cameos from Brock like we did with Gary during XY and hopefully have him return for the next region.

Pretty sure Brock is gone for good this time. He's stayed gone two generations in a row now, its very similar to the way Misty was treated after Johto.

Brock wasn't even given any cameos in BW either, he just appeared in a Cilan special. He's done.
 

An00bis

Wicked Witch
Yes... because it's important for a person to have many types of friends to be healthy socially. Since friendship is one of the big things about this anime I feel as though the protagonist should have as many friends as possible and be able to interact with them all.

Writers know that having just two characters bounce off each other all the time will cause fans to speculate on romantic tension. It may also bore fans who care nothing about shipping. So we often see a group of three more than pairing. A group of three works well for a number of reasons (look up Power Trio). They give the protagonist two friends with often different personalities for the protagonist to bounce off of, get advice from, and side with during the rare team threatening disagreement. In short, it keeps things fresher longer because the writers aren't forced to deal with certain plot points immediately.
 

the1stpkmnfan

Your Big Buff Bro
Yes for all the many rightful reasons listed. Especially, for Brock/Cilan's cooking and knowledge about Pokemon. They may be the underrated ones, but they've got a part in the show.
 
They all served a purpose. Instead of looking at them as teachers for Ash we should look at them as Ash's friends. They were friends that wanted to travel together. Imagine how boring a journey would be if you had to do it all alone. They all served as companions for Ash. I personally liked Brock and Cilan. Tracy was ok

I know I would find the show kind of boring if it was just Ash traveling all by himself.
 

Bakphoon™

Heated Fury
I'd say they were needed. It could just not be Ash and another girl. Another guy was needed to make food, heal the Pokémon, etc like Brock and Cilan.
Yes, the writers would never do a cast of just Ash and a female companion. You always need a third sidekick character there.
Yup that's what I am saying.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
Each and every one of mentioned male companions was needed having value and useful position they played in pokemon anime.

First of all just because Ash is driving force of pokemon anime doesn't and cannot determine that each and every companion role has to be played around him. For instance i hear people saying how moment Brock stopped being Ash mentor, he "lost his role in pokemon" which is very, very wrong thing to say in my opinion.

Because writers in Hoenn expanded on his breeder career, had him catch more pokemon, get more evolutions and learn new things as breeder such as how to prepare new type of food(see pokeblock), exchange experiences with other breeders, utilize his knowledge in resolving disoutes between pokemon like Grovyle vs Tropius, Solrock and village people, agitated Magnezone and Metagross etc. Taking care of injured or sick ones such as Nuzleaf, Sharpedo or Bagon growing forward both as person and breeder.

While playing important role logistic wise taking care of Ash and co as older brother, provide supplies, give advices to May about her contest career and bring humor, sense of security and balance in main cast keepong things under control(just like he did with Misty and Ash when things escalated way out of control). Through his eccentric behavior, comedy nature of losing his head over other girls or sometime pokemon trying to use them for his own plan of gaining other girl attention(like Lotad), caring, solidary side in helping other pokemon revealing unselfish, passionate aspect he holds for pokemon himself transfering knowledge to others(like Dawn, Ash for example)etc.

And often helping Ash in training pokemon as his sparring partner in Hoenn or Sinnoh still coming up with strategies and help over his pokemon or gym battles(like vs Brawley for example, Winona, Chimchar, Treecko etc.)

Same applies to Cilan who was like navigator, older brother which due to his wise, more grown up attitide knew more about pokemon battles, strategy and events specific for Unova region than Ash was. Getting him familiar with customs, other gym leaders etc.

Bringing lot of flare, humor and tense atmosphere with his witty sophistry with Burgundy, clashing moments when getting into feud with Iris or Ash. Overdramatizing over his food, pokemon and various hobbies or showcasing vulnerable, fearful side to himself when paranormal things are in question.

All done with purpose of adding more diversity and energy in main cast, which in itself i already viewed as meritorious and important role in making things more appealing for viewers(because entertainment is often most important ingredient to catch people attention).

Or Tracey to lesser extent who got Ash and Misty more familiarized with Orange Islands archipelago, prepared food for them, was familiar with champion, gyms and how whole Orange league works. While serving as intermediator between Ash and Misty's more dynamic, hotheaded personalities by injecting calamity and at times amusing stinging through his jokes of them being in love, and feeling jeopardized/ flustered when Ash or Misty made sarcastic remarls over his subtle interest in other women.

Bringing us to important inference how; Worth of companion in pokemon series isn't tied solely to Ash role and how much their presence helps move Ash story forward.

Otherwise going by that logic May, Dawn, Iris or Misty were never needed to begin with because their stories, flaws and imperfections in most cases had absolutely nothing to do with Ash career of becoming pokemon master influencing little to none his gym quest. This especially applies to Iris, May or Dawn when Ash wasn't anymore rookie who needed other people guidance making them thius completely "pointless" if character usefulness is measured by how much he helps main star.

Being ignored that point of pokemon isn't only in following Ash journey and him establishing friendship with other characters. But also in exploring lives of other companions which join him on journey, give viewer look in his own past, motives, issues over which he has yet to pass and see him advance his own goal. Follow development of his /her personality, pokemon and subplots centered around him.

With main and primary mesage of pokemon lying in promoting friendship between Ash and other friends which accompany him on journey, build on relationship with interaction over time gaining more substance, to see each and every one of them learn new things on their voyage, overcome obstacles, work toward progressing their goals and dreams. Along with gaining experience, knowledge and gradually maturing as result of that moving story forward through their own interests.

With not everything falling down on Ash back.

Yes Misty, Iris, May or Dawn brought in general more emotion, depth and flare in characterization(in my humble opinon Misty did especially good job in that field). They received more character development, introspection of their own personalities, fears and aspirations than any male companion did. We learned more about their past, saw them battle more and advance their dreams leaving bigger impact on story.

All of this is true.

BUT, Cilan, Brock or Tracey to smaller extent played important role in pokemon anime through supporting role. Being backbone on which Ash and girls could rely when something wents wrong, made sure to look after younger members of cast to prevent them from mindlessly rushing in danger, did navigation , providing cast with supplies or help when pokemon was seriously injured or sick through battle, poison and exhaustion through preparation of potions and remedies(this especially holds truth for Brock). Being older, more experienced face which kept everything on hold, having their own pokemon, issues, insecurities in characterization. Most importantly dreams and wishes they wanted to accomplish.

Containing required appeal, humanity and uniqueness to grant them popularity and approval among fans.

Brock was only there to be there in Diamond and Pearl (what a painful 4 years THAT was, but OMGZ DP was SOOOO GEWD), but he wasn't absolutely needed past the Original Series, either: he was still good in Advanced Generation, but started going downhill in Battle Frontier even there.

Overall, yes, but only for a while-- at least Tracey didn't outlive his usefulness, though.

Clemont is the only good character in the XY Series.

I don't know, i thought Brock was handled better in BF than he was in Hoenn imo.
Brock got lot of really good focus there and genuine, emotionally packed interactions with others. He challenged May to contest battle giving his all to win Yuma heart and impression, showed lot of pride and understanding for his jounger brother Forest pairing up with Ash in tag battle to defend Pewter gym vs Team Rocket. Entered pokemon orientering, had his Mudkip evolve, caught Bonsly gaining his thrust through caretaking abilities. As such reveaing that he grew a lot as breeder over all that time he spent in traveling with Ash and exploring world. Was involved in resolving issues between other pokemon trainers pokemon like Flaffy and Ampharos, started to show interest in becoming pokemon doctor when taking care of sick nurse Joy realizing value of her job, being like early foreshadowing toward him eventually becoming one. Seducing of other girls didn't stayed just on gag actually evolving in something more like gaining simpathy from Frontier brain Pike Queen Lucy developing crush on him for a change etc.

Brock was great in Battle Frontier in my opinion, infact one of highglights in what i found to be insult to Kanto, lack of more active use of characters inherent to it which could lift up dynamic and bring new, interesting twist to story through their own goals and further development(see Misty, Sabrina, lt. Surge etc) and way it was referenced being largely static, subpar saga imo.

As for Tracey he was sadly removed before he could even live up to his role, being bad move toward his character. Never staying long enough to gain more dimension to personality and character by giving us info of his past, origins, interests etc. Or developing his own pokemon, career and plot showing to be detrimental in his general acceptance among audiemce not receiving much from short stay to invest and relate themselves to character.

In fact i don't think any character in pokemon "outlived their welcome" strictly speaking. Because for most of them regardless of how writers handled their characters, story and dreams doesn't change fact how they had potential, energy and appeal to last for longer than they did in case writers decided to make use of their unused material.

Or created fresh new obstacles, expand on unresolved aspects of ther story and develop new plots which would bring fresh life to characterization and their role doing more with character than they originally intended. Sequels can and do get made with huge success on other long running shows.

However, I think he should have left in DP. It's not his fault, it's obviously the writers, but among the other bland characters, he was especially bland. They had no idea what to do with him after just a couple dozen episodes, but I'm glad he's gone because I don't want his character to be ruined even more.

This can go both ways though. If Brock stayed writers could have do with him what they did with Cilan and now Clemont increasing his role in episodes, expand on interest and explore more on Brock character and past. In sense of introducing unresoled issues, desires and events which werent brought up until than because of situation not calling for it.

Something writers of other anime do when they feel character may start becoming turing to auduence wanting to add new twist to his story and role , building up on character.Instead of runing, fixing him up regaining lost luster and becoming eventful again.

I mean examples of Brock successors shows that they know and can do better job with male sidekicks(although Brock in OS and AG still beats them in my book), so in essence them learning on past mistakes could have been applied to Brock character too(just glimpse of his role in special with Cilan when Brock played important part in healing Cilan pokemon and climbing on Gyarados to treat his wounds revealed how staff can do better job using his new career and possibilities it provides to do something new with character).

What was the point of Brock by DP? He had already run his course by the end of Hoenn, it really was nonsensical why he kept coming back for multiple generations only for the writers to completely ignore him.

Just to point out something. Character being neglected=/=character necessarily not having anymore potential. With Brock in essence having material to do more with him than what he has ghotten in end.

In fact every replaced companion had stamina , unresolved things and plots around which viable continuation could have been made if writers actually were motivated to take them forward. That is.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
Yes, a third companion is necessary to balance out the group. In my opinion, Brock was at his best in OS and to some extent in AG. I love Brock, he was a good mentor to Ash and added a lot more comedy to the show. However, I think he should have left in DP. It's not his fault, it's obviously the writers, but among the other bland characters, he was especially bland. They had no idea what to do with him after just a couple dozen episodes, but I'm glad he's gone because I don't want his character to be ruined even more. On the other hand, I think that Cilan was unnecessary imo. I don't like his personality, and I definitely prefer Brock over Cilan. They should've at least dropped Cilan's "It's evaluation time!,"that battle was spicy" I cant stand those overused lines. Tracey was OK.
Pretty much this. There needs to be a 3rd wheel character for better character interactions.
 
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