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Brock, Cilan and Tracey: were they really needed?

chalkus

Well-Known Member
You're acting like Ash is a baby. As much as I love Clemont and so, he doesn't always need someone to rely on. Most Pokemon trainers travel alone.

But didn't Ash get lost in the first couple episodes and needed Clemont to direct him to Viola's gym and then to the professor's lab. He is not very good with directions. Even in Kanto he needed Brock's help.
 

OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
It's funny how Tracey was used to be a replacement and the writers probably had no value in him. IMO, I think Tracey has positively impacted the show and was a memorable character rather than being there just to be there.
 
It's funny how Tracey was used to be a replacement and the writers probably had no value in him. IMO, I think Tracey has positively impacted the show and was a memorable character rather than being there just to be there.

Well, he's a lot better than DP Brock and Da! Cilan at least, so I'll agree.
 

Kuvario

I am who I am...because of them.
But didn't Ash get lost in the first couple episodes and needed Clemont to direct him to Viola's gym and then to the professor's lab. He is not very good with directions. Even in Kanto he needed Brock's help.

And if he did? He never cared about being smart out of battles. So you're saying when he was a beginner he needed help? Ya don't say? The point is that Brock and Cilan were needed. Ash or anybody else didn't know basic traveling skills well. Tracey, I'd say he wasn't too needed, but helpful to have.
 

OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
But didn't Ash get lost in the first couple episodes and needed Clemont to direct him to Viola's gym and then to the professor's lab. He is not very good with directions. Even in Kanto he needed Brock's help.
That's why you can go out there and get a guide book like a trainer usually would. I'm not saying Brock/Cilan/Tracey weren't needed, but Ash could do it himself if he really wanted to and had the effort too
 

chalkus

Well-Known Member
That's why you can go out there and get a guide book like a trainer usually would. I'm not saying Brock/Cilan/Tracey weren't needed, but Ash could do it himself if he really wanted to and had the effort too

I think you are giving Ash too much credit. The guy runs off to different regions on the fly, sometimes without even changing his clothes. I don't think planning things out is his strong suit.
 

OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
I think you are giving Ash too much credit. The guy runs off to different regions on the fly, sometimes without even changing his clothes. I don't think planning things out is his strong suit.
He's too depending, as in he depends on people too much. That's not right. That's why he always loses the Pokemon league because he's so used to relying on someone. Poor kid.
 

chalkus

Well-Known Member
Brock should have given the league a try as often as he had to help Ash. He actually might have won if he took it seriously.
 

OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
Brock should have given the league a try as often as he had to help Ash. He actually might have won if he took it seriously.
He could have also made an awesome character.
Another piece of evidence of DP leaving Brock out is during the wallace cup, everyone entered except Brock. Why couldn't he entered? He did in a Kanto contest.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
Brock should have given the league a try as often as he had to help Ash. He actually might have won if he took it seriously.

You know I never understood why Brock rarely battled in the show at all. The few times he's in a serious battle he's quite entertaining.

Such a shame that "real" battles for Brock barely every happen in any saga he was in.
 

zhixun

Well-Known Member
He could have also made an awesome character.
Another piece of evidence of DP leaving Brock out is during the wallace cup, everyone entered except Brock. Why couldn't he entered? He did in a Kanto contest.

I agree and it should be another chance for Takeshi for the contest. Much better than he is put to the background in my opinion.
 

Wigger

Active Member
In fact, Ash on his own could be the way better. Just like Red, he could be called lonely hero and also we would meet new new people for each episode. Do you know what does it mean? New new Pokémon teams, new new characters and personalities, new new stories for each. But that current way is not bad though. I just think Kalos journey has the worst team so far. Kick off Clemont (not even sure if I typed correctly) and his little sister, add someone like Brock or Cilan, that's the spirit I'd say.
 
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minerswhocraft

Misty Come Back!
If you really think about it, is there really a need for Ash?


Might sound silly, but Ash's journey really never progresses. He always ends up back at square one, needing another 8 badges to go and loose again. Truly, Brock and Ash should have just continued their journey off screen while a whole new trio was introduced in a new region.


Was Brock necessary? Of course he was. In the anime, Ash would have been like the other trainers from Pallet. Things would have just gotten to be too much for him to handle. With Brock the Rock there, Ash had a brother to lean on.

For the viewers, Brock was extremely funny to watch, and was necessary to the show to keep us laughing. (I'm talking before we got sick of him of course)

Though Tracey wasn't funny, he was important to the idea of the Orange Islands, to navigate, inform, and drive the series. His role for the viewers and the show was the same.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Of Course they were needed. In XY Ash stil rushes to a gym, before even checking where it is and was going the wrong way. He was stil in Kanto or Unova if it wasn't for Brock and Cilan.
 

MounTE

Member
I find that Brock was necessary at least in Kanto/Johto because he was the pokemon "go-to guy" to help Ash grow as a trainer. I haven't watched BW yet so I can't make any opinions on Cilan yet.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
I find that Brock was necessary at least in Kanto/Johto because he was the pokemon "go-to guy" to help Ash grow as a trainer.

Yeah, after Ash became more experienced as a trainer Brock's role steadily declined in the series. For most of AG and DP Brock was there for exposition and the few filler episodes the writers dedicated to him. Ash became the mentor or experienced character toward May and Dawn since they were the beginners at those times.

It's probably why Brock's role on the show felt so unneeded after the OS ended. While I did like him returning for AG initially, there really wasn't much of a purpose to have him in DP. Probably should have had Barry or Reggie on the cast in DP.
 

nameman

Well-Known Member
Yeah, after Ash became more experienced as a trainer Brock's role steadily declined in the series. For most of AG and DP Brock was there for exposition and the few filler episodes the writers dedicated to him. Ash became the mentor or experienced character toward May and Dawn since they were the beginners at those times.

It's probably why Brock's role on the show felt so unneeded after the OS ended. While I did like him returning for AG initially, there really wasn't much of a purpose to have him in DP. Probably should have had Barry or Reggie on the cast in DP.

Brock's purpose in AG was more of a companion role to Ash. He was there mostly because they didn't want to replace him due to Tracey. And for the most part, he filled his new niche adequately in AG, though it took until BF for him to get back into things. He was just unnecessary in DP, remaining because of what happened in the Orange Islands Saga.

As for Tracey, he too served his role adequately. He wasn't as good of a character as Brock, but Ash and Misty would have had a very difficult time without him.

Cilan... I don't want to talk about BW.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
To CyberCubed: Is there any reason to identify Brock role with Ash coach and mentor so much though?

To the point that once his involvement in that area decreases we start viewing Brock as character who "lost his place in pokemon series", "who no longer had purpose in anime anymore"?

Cilan and Clemont were/are hardly cosaches and mentors in any aspect. Instead their role came from focusing on their goals, hobbies, past and personalities giuving chance to learn more about them. How much inflouernce Ash presence leaves on their lives and stories while being older care takers, navigators or problem resolvers.

Something which was applied to Brock fully after Johto series still playing role of older brother who looked after others, keep them out of trouble, showered Ash and others with advices and caeew cooking, cleaning, navigating. And providing sense of security, comfort in main cast balancing out group interactions through his wise, experienced attitude bringing lot of humor, hilarious scenes and suspense with his quirks, flirty antics and selfless nature.

Alongside focusing more on his career of becoming best breeder in world, got many episodes for himself in helping sick, injured pokemon utilizing what he learned from before and came to cognition how to raise up pokemon in better fashion. Promoted idea of friendship in being backbone on which Ash, Misty, May, Max, or Dawn could rely and look for tips, consolidation or help when needed. Such as being sparring partner to Ash in several of his training battles, taught him about first aid and how to take care of his pokemon risked his neck on several occasions to find needed berries or potion for his Pikachu or other injured pokemon being like brothers, accompanied May in her shopping ventures, talked with Misty about romance and love issues and showed lot of concern and compassion when ever she was in danger or got separated from group(such as when she ended split with TR, when falling of the cliff with Max) etc, etc. resulting in development of strong,significant friendship.

Entered various events like pokemon orientering, contests, tag battles, summer school arc, balloon race, transfirmation contest etc,

Caught various pokemon like Mudkip, Lotad, Bonsly, Croagunk. Through lot of devotion and love raised them up developing his talent and knowledge in exploiuting pokemon beauty and inner strength through other ways beside battling. Met several breeders which exchanged knowledge and insights with him developing firward.

Gave us more insight in his family, relationship with parents or younger brother Forest with traveling with Ash helping him in becoming more open and emphatic as person developing lot of care for his friends, found understanding and common language wuth his family and slowly realized where he stands in life and what path he should follow. Traveling with Ash helped him to discover that such as doctor career. Starting to show interest and signs of leaning toward that path ever since Bagon episode in Battle Frontier.

So im not sure how moment when Brock stopped coaching Ash as much as he used to be his role "declined"?

Given how he still played important part in pokemon series just like Cilan and Clemont did.

Because regardless of how much focus , development and attention Brock received does not minimize fact how his character had his own potential, room to be done more with his story and dreams along with playing valuable role in keeping groupo on hold through logistic support and lor if knowledge.

p.s. Also i hope people do realize how lot of episodes focused on Brock were revolved around his breeding goal, evolution of pokemon, his development or exposition of own past, interests and personality.

As such they cannot be disregard as "useless fillers" if we learned new things about character and helped move him forward.

He was just unnecessary in DP, remaining because of what happened in the Orange Islands Saga.

If your referring to backlash, it was 10 times worse when Misty left but as its well known it didnt helped in influencing writers plans and decisions.

Making me question that fans disappointment over Brock removal for Tracey played any affect behind Brock coming back and being kept for this long. Based on interview with mr. Hidaka reason why Brock came back was because after writers saw how no one had problems with Brock eyes and color of skin liking him for who he is with their fears being ungrounded, they decided to bring back his character.

With fans complaints not having much, if any input on that.
 
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Amourshpping

Well-Known Member
In XY Clemont was needed to show Ash his way around, Serena is not needed since she has no goal
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
In XY Clemont was needed to show Ash his way around, Serena is not needed since she has no goal

Well it does seem like Serena is the "Brock" of XY so far. This is really the first time in the series the female companion has been practically ignored and gotten little to no screentime.
 
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