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BW001 & BW002: Zekrom's Shadow/Iris and Kibago
- Thread starter Ash-kid
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dman_dustin
Well-Known Member
I don't agree.
The only thing they can do at this point is create a story out of nothing really. Unlike Chimchar's story that actually had to deal with the rivalry a lot, and it definitely didn't come out of nowhere.
But let's refer to the 3 staters (the only Pokemon that can have a Pokemon story like Chimchar's because I don't see how a story revolving around Denchura is going to make the writers focus on Mijumaru more than Tsutarja or Pokabu).
Mijumaru- Mijumaru is being caught as is (with no one's help), and at this moment could not develop a rivalry against Shooti (for example) since Pikachu looks like the one to be most rivalled against Shooti (given the fact Pikachu loses horribly to Tsutarja). The only thing they can do at this point is create something. And I don't think a inverse Chimchar situation is even possible in any way shape or form, since it would mean we would see less of Mijumaru's development, which would make Ash releasing Mijumaru and then Shooti catching it would be totally out of character as well as pointless. Mijumaru just cannot get a Chimchar story exactly, it would have to be created, and it would ultimately be pointless because like I said Ash is catching Mijumaru as is.
Tsutarja- Just not seeing it happening given that there are two Tsutarja, the female one (likely being caught on the main cast mind you), as well as Shooti's Tsutarja. And I highly doubt Ash will get two, nor do I actually remotely seeing it happen if Ash doesn't get the female Tsutarja, because I don't see why Shooti would release his Tsutarja (especially if it is going to be his Starter; Chimchar wasn't Paul's starter but at this moment in time it looks a lot like Shooti's starter is in fact Tsutarja).
Pokabu- Not feeling it either. Assume Iris gets Pokabu.. What story is there for Iris to release it or give it to Ash. Is Ash supposed to bring Pokabu out of its depression and impress Iris so much she regrets not raising it herself. What kind of story is that?
Unless Best Wishes is just a massive headache waiting to happen, if Ash gets all starter Pokemon, none of them should treated higher than the rest. I mean they can focus solely on Mijumaru but it really doesn't make any sense to (other than its about darn time the water starter under Ash's control gets up there among the ranks of Charizard, Infernape, and Sceptile).
thunderblade12
Well-Known Member
Nando was a new trainer, Ash hardly managed to beat him at the League.
Casey sucked, she didn't even manage to make it to the Johto League. You can't even compare
Because Pikachu beating a Regice and then immediately tying to and Elekid is COMPLETELY plausible. This time Pikachu can become a powerhouse again through legitimate means as opposed to always relying on "Thunderbolt" to save the day. Also possibly this time Pikachu won't get beat as much
You seem to be set on the terms that B/W is a whole bunch of newbs in comparison to D/P. Initially Dawn had no experience and Paul was some punk with an Elekid and Chimchar; why would Ash waste his time on those suckers? I'd say not to judge what's going down until we actually see it happen. For all we know Shooti's like Paul; more powerful then he's letting on initially.
Ratattas and Caterpies can beat Ubers like Arceus in the game under certain circumstances.
Paul had a deeper story that involved Brandon. What does Shooti have? Im not knocking the characters, but I find it absurd for people to think Pikachu being downgraded by Zekrom is a stroke of genius to explain why he will lose to a newbie trainer.
Shooti could get owned by Ash, and then swear revenge on him. And we could see him vastly improve over time. That would have been a better plot. Instead of him beating a pokemon that took a hit from a pokegod or whatever it is.
Paul had a deeper story that involved Brandon. What does Shooti have? Im not knocking the characters, but I find it absurd for people to think Pikachu being downgraded by Zekrom is a stroke of genius to explain why he will lose to a newbie trainer.
Shooti could get owned by Ash, and then swear revenge on him. And we could see him vastly improve over time. That would have been a better plot. Instead of him beating a pokemon that took a hit from a pokegod or whatever it is.
He has nothing yet. We didn't have Brandon until like 50+ episodes in; Shooti hasn't even debuted. Hell, Shooti could have beef with Cynthia for all we know. So your logic here is completely out of whack. Also it's not like Pikachu's solely losing to Shooti; he's got a whole region to re-develop itself as a powerful Pokemon. Gyms where it's plausible that he's at the same rank, possible training arcs to learn new Electric moves, a whole new set of things. You're looking at it one-dimensionally; there's multiple options to explore with these arcs.
I'll admit, this sounds kind of cool. Makes Ash out to be a jerk though, which is far from the case. I could see Shooti also being a powerful trainer, trying to use New Pokemon he hasn't seen before (like Smugleaf). That would legit put him on the same boat with Ash, just with a different personality.
Conclusions are never a good thing to have. Especially when they're built on very shaky ground.
You do realise you based a lot of your arguments based on 'i don't see it happening', 'I doubt it' and 'not feeling it'. Not really strong argumentative points when you are trying to say what might happen in the future.
I am feeling that there has been a little mis-communication here. Are you implying that whatever pokemn story there might be this time with BW it can not be similar to chimchar story, or are you saying that there can not be a story only focused on a single pokemon in Ash's team? I thought you were saying the latter.
And in that case there can obviously be a singularly focused story. The fact that Ash is getting a water starter after a long time and that the fans are excited about it could be a potential for the writers to make a great story for it. In that case the focus could very well be a little more weighted upon miju. I am not gonna argue how the story might pan out - there are way too many possibilities. Miju having trouble with its power once it evolves, being too cocky to listen to Ash, a bit too carefree to battle properly, or it might even develop rivalry with Shooti's tsutaja later in the arc.
Given that both Shooti and Ash catch a tsu each, there is potential to see which one is better. Shooti's one could be relying on raw power while Ash's one a bit more relying on evasive tactics and strategies. In that case Ash would have to learn how to handle his Tsu and that could make a nice story on itself, hogging focus in the process. They did not give us a terra vs terra in the sinnoh final, probably because Paul's terra obviously had the upperhand
with more training. But that will not be an issue with the two tsu, because they both will be newly caught.
I am not sure what Iris is going to do in the anime. If she goes for musicals, I can see a repeat of buizel scenario. Pokabu is not interested in musicals, nut iris tries to dress it up in girly clothes which makes pokabu uncomfortable. So Iris finally realizing this gives pokabu to Ash. You can't say the writers do not like to repeat their stories. And it does not even have to be a mutual trade; Iris could just give her pokabu away without receiving any pokemon from Ash in return.
There you go. That's all I am trying to say, that it is obviously a possibility and there is no way of saying that it would definitely not happen this time with BW.
I am feeling that there has been a little mis-communication here. Are you implying that whatever pokemn story there might be this time with BW it can not be similar to chimchar story, or are you saying that there can not be a story only focused on a single pokemon in Ash's team? I thought you were saying the latter.
And in that case there can obviously be a singularly focused story. The fact that Ash is getting a water starter after a long time and that the fans are excited about it could be a potential for the writers to make a great story for it. In that case the focus could very well be a little more weighted upon miju. I am not gonna argue how the story might pan out - there are way too many possibilities. Miju having trouble with its power once it evolves, being too cocky to listen to Ash, a bit too carefree to battle properly, or it might even develop rivalry with Shooti's tsutaja later in the arc.
Given that both Shooti and Ash catch a tsu each, there is potential to see which one is better. Shooti's one could be relying on raw power while Ash's one a bit more relying on evasive tactics and strategies. In that case Ash would have to learn how to handle his Tsu and that could make a nice story on itself, hogging focus in the process. They did not give us a terra vs terra in the sinnoh final, probably because Paul's terra obviously had the upperhand
with more training. But that will not be an issue with the two tsu, because they both will be newly caught.
I am not sure what Iris is going to do in the anime. If she goes for musicals, I can see a repeat of buizel scenario. Pokabu is not interested in musicals, nut iris tries to dress it up in girly clothes which makes pokabu uncomfortable. So Iris finally realizing this gives pokabu to Ash. You can't say the writers do not like to repeat their stories. And it does not even have to be a mutual trade; Iris could just give her pokabu away without receiving any pokemon from Ash in return.
There you go. That's all I am trying to say, that it is obviously a possibility and there is no way of saying that it would definitely not happen this time with BW.
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
I really don't like this new rival.
Looks like a bad re-tread of Paul and Drew combined into one character.
Looks like a bad re-tread of Paul and Drew combined into one character.
That's the same feeling I got from him. It will be interesting to see his development, but I don't think he will outshine Paul.
dman_dustin
Well-Known Member
Well look at what's happening in the first episode, Ash vs Shooti, and it'll be a 1 vs 1. Unlike Paul who actually started out against Ash with Chimchar developing an even greater story right then and there. The reason it doesn't feel like there can be one now, is I don't buy the possibility that a story can be created later.
A little of both, but I'll explain in a minute.
The problem here is there wouldn't need for Mijumaru's hypothetical story to undermine the rest of Ash's team. The only reason Chimchar/Infernape did was because Infernape needed to show how strong it became while under Ash's command. But if it didn't have the story behind it, I doubt the same could be said about needing to be so strong. Torterra in that case could've easily beaten Electivire and previously Gliscor could've beaten Candice's Snover.
Now take your hypothetical Mijumaru and compare it to Mamoswine who had a very similar storyline. It might've gotten focus during that time, but it didn't hog everyone's screen time. Dawn still managed to properly show her other Pokemon in the process (and it wasn't until Lyra guest starred that Mamoswine actually got to be in a Pokemon contest).
There's not just the Torterra's. Remember both Ash and Paul have Gliscor, and any chance of it possibly becoming a which one is better trained went out the window (apparently Chimchar/Infernape was enough for their rivalry that they didn't want a Gliscor vs Gliscor since it likely would've undermined the importance of Chimchar/Infernape's story. It would be interesting yes, but again I can't see why this hypothetical situation would make Tsutarja get more screen time, given the fact Tsutarja isn't all of Shooti it really is 1/6 and Ash and Shooti can never have the same bond as Paul and Ash which had Infernape to thanks. At most Shooti would say "well it looks like I'm not as good as you when training Tsutarja, but that's not all I have, go Articuno use ice beam" *Ash's Tsutarja gets knocked out.
Again I really can't see how a storyline like this would make Pokabu be used more (unless to play catch up like with Buizel). Remember Buizel was used a lot in the early DP series after being traded, and people complained but once the writers focused on Chimchar/Infernape, Buizel took a back seat and didn't get much at all and then it got completely overshadowed by Chimchar/Infernape entirely. Not even all of Buizel's hard work can be compared to Chimchar/Infernape's hard work.
No matter what the convoluted story, I can't see the writers focusing on one starter like they did with Chimchar/Infernape in DP, there doesn't seem to be time for it and really doesn't make any sense. Hypothetically right now none of the starters have anything to prove like Chimchar/Infernape that would explain why Ash's entire team got shafted in favor of one of these starters.
The only way they'll focus on one starter is when Ash only has Mijumaru thus they have no choice but to focus solely on that starter. But if Ash gets all three starters or two, I definitely don't see the writers not favoring one over the other.
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And as for the Shooti talk....really?
Pikachu can't use electric attacks and Shooti takes advantage of the situation and beats Ash and suddenly the writers aren't treating Shooti like a real rival like Paul?
First off Shooti can never, ever be as good of a rival to Ash as Paul.
Secondly even though that will be the case doesn't mean we should hate on Shooti, like some people are apparently doing. He might not be the best after Paul, but Shooti looks like he will be good enough (although quite frankly I want Ash to beat him every time after this loss but realistically speaking it isn't going to happen)
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magicallypuzzled
Well-Known Member
so i have seen you say repeatedly that there are two tsutarja but from the previews i have seen i have seen no evidence of this. what's your source?
i hope your not just trolling me becuase i'd love for there to be asecond tsutarja that ash could catch. if you get my hopes up for that i'll probably be very disapointed when it doesn't happen.
@dman dustin (I dunno why, but I like ur nick!): I can't argue with you if you keep knocking back my points with 'i don't see how'. Give me reasons why you don't see them. It's really up to the writers what they are gonna do with Ash's BW team. It was purely the writers choice that Mamoswine did not hog all of Dawn's team's spotlight. They could have done that, but they did not. It was again the writers' choice that Chimchar has to be the star all throughout the saga. And if they choose to give Miju the spotlight for whatever reason they decide, there can be no stopping them. For all they care, chimchar story was a success. Fans whined, but more fans loved the finale. So give me reasons why you think the writers would suddenly become smarter than they were in the saga that just ended.
Okay, don't. Just answer me this: before DP started, did you have any idea that they were gonna give Ash two starters, evolve both of them fully, but would give all the spotlight to one?
Okay, don't. Just answer me this: before DP started, did you have any idea that they were gonna give Ash two starters, evolve both of them fully, but would give all the spotlight to one?
dman_dustin
Well-Known Member
It looks like I forgot my main evidence in that post. Shooti's Tsutarja or rather Grass Mixer Tsutarja has an entirely different voice actor than the female one. The female one has feminine quality to it (higher pitched) while "Shooti's" Tsutarja has a deeper pitch to it. And the fact that Shooti's Tsutarja has no reason to act all conceited (or maybe playfully mean would be a better way to describe it) like the female Tsutarja was in the preview (plus we actually see a Tsutarja being sent out that has a slightly but obvious different personality to female Tsutarja, although its ownership is under question, in one of the earlier previews of all the starter Pokemon being sent out, we see a Tsutarja (in what looks like a Pokemon Center) that looks high and mighty and doesn't look too happy this is quite different than the female Tsutarja but given the shortness I wouldn't say that's proof of anything). Add to that we specifically see a Tsutarja being captured. Shooti already has a Tsutarja, so not really seeing why we would see a Tsutarja being caught if it was Shooti.
Edit: Oh and by the way don't get your hopes up. I mean just because there is a second Tsutarja, it doesn't mean Ash will catch it, I mean there's strong evidence for it, but it isn't for certain unlike Mijumaru which is basically 100% confirmed.
Because maybe the head writer Tomioka realized his mistake but didn't have time to fix it, but maybe in Best Wishes perhaps Tomioka is giving Ash 3 starters to prove that they can all be treated fairly (probably the equivalent of beating at least one Pokemon in the Isshu League if not more).
Plus it would make sense too, if Dento and Iris aren't having much of a goal, they can easily focus a lot more attention to Ash's Pokemon. Even not, I still think a lot of the development will be much more fairly spaced out. I mean 100 episodes (or near it) until a Pokemon evolved, no, this time I expect faster evolutions (like 30-50 episodes).
Um, I can't say that for sure since I didn't really pay much attention to the "original" more than the dub until around Maylene's Lucario and near that time it was too late to form much of an opinion. And by that I did not watch the raws until Maylene's Lucario. Before that I relied solely on what people said about the episode and formed opinions that way. And I can't remember when I did focus on the originals in the first place, since I didn't know (or didn't think I knew) the outcome of Ash vs Brandon until it came out in the dub.
I did know/believe that Ash had to get either Magmortar or Chimchar, and Chimchar made more sense because if Ash did get Magby they would have to have evolved all the way while with Chimchar it didn't have to.
But even during the DP series near the end, no I cannot say I expected the writers to shaft one over another even despite the fact Chimchar was getting one win after another. And even now I still disagree with the unfair treatment of Torterra. It really could've used at least one league win.
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I see we are more attuned than I thought. But see you never could have told that one starter would hog all the screen time, even near the end. For the benefit for all, I do sincerely hope that the writers have grown smarter than before. But we really can not tell if they have until we have actually gone through the whole saga. That was all I was trying to say all along.
But really, you did not know the outcome of Ash vs Brendan till the dub came out?? You sure have some superb form of self control.
Lunanight
Well-Known Member
I think shooti is better trainer then he appears to be.
do you remember when everyone assumed paul was a new trainer but yet his starter pokemon is proven to be stronger then pikachu as in the full battle at the lake, it took all those hits from gliscor and it then took out gliscor and did A LOT of damage. hell, it even proved a challenged to garchomp.
I hope that in the league, shooti will acually uses his starter pokemon against ash.
do you remember when everyone assumed paul was a new trainer but yet his starter pokemon is proven to be stronger then pikachu as in the full battle at the lake, it took all those hits from gliscor and it then took out gliscor and did A LOT of damage. hell, it even proved a challenged to garchomp.
I hope that in the league, shooti will acually uses his starter pokemon against ash.
streetlightdsb
Uni hiatus
I also think that Shooti will be an experienced trainer. For one thing, he hasn't been described as being a new trainer. Pretty much all that's been said is that he takes pictures of new Pokemon and he's heading for the Isshu league.
Also, the way I see it, Ash has defeated many impressive trainers now (Brandon, Paul, Takutos Darkrai and Latios) Paul has just as much experience as Ash does. Are we to expect Ash to start losing to newbie trainers. Before anyone says anything about he's using a new team, I know- but he is still a very experienced trainer now and should be able to adapt to that. Plus he won't be fighting a Darkrai while he has 2 badges
I just think it would be unrealistic for Ash to beat or match all these experienced trainers and lose to some kid with his first badge.Also Shooti seems different from Paul to me. Paul has always been more quiet, while Shooti seems more excited before his battle with Ash and more cocky afterwards. Paul just walks away after beating Ash, while it looks as though Shooti boasts to Ash.
Seems more like the original Gary to me.
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