BWS2-07 Iris' Dragonite VS Dawn's Mamoswine! [THIS WEEK: SPECIAL]

[Royal_Qeca]

Though trip winning would help his character out, ash needs to win the most.

No, he doesn't. It's finally time to see Trip winning a tournament...

 

[(P.O.K.E.M.O.N)]

no he doesn't. ash has been doing well enough. trip needs a big win to establish his status as ashs main rival. ash can win another tournament

Cant they just give up on trip, he's obviously a failed paul clone, and isn't ash getting a new rival?

No, he doesn't. It's finally time to see Trip winning a tournament...

Ash hasn't won any tournaments to

 

[AceDetective]

Cant they just give up on trip, he's obviously a failed paul clone, and isn't ash getting a new rival?



Ash hasn't won any tournaments to

no they can't give up on him. there's nothing wrong with him that a few decent wins won't fix (which he can get by winning this tournament). and so what if ash is getting a new rival? its probably just gonna be a tobias situation, a rival introduced just for ash to lose the league to

 

[Faker500]

Cant they just give up on trip, he's obviously a failed paul clone, and isn't ash getting a new rival?



Ash hasn't won any tournaments to

That's true. But I rather Trip or Ash because they could both use the win for different reasons.

 

[Blue Saturday]

Cant they just give up on trip, he's obviously a failed paul clone, and isn't ash getting a new rival?

Sometimes I wish Trip didn't come after Paul, if people continue to have the mentality that Trip as a Paul rehash then they're going to be disappointed every time.

 

[UnbelievableUrsula]

Sometimes I wish Trip didn't come after Paul, if people continue to have the mentality that Trip as a Paul rehash then they're going to be disappointed every time.

I agree. Instead there would be saying he would be a worse version of Trip then. If this is BW, the writting for the rivals will ofcourse dumbe down, so Paul coming after Trip would make people not like him due to the writting.

 

[Col-Erase]

no one thinks dawn or cilan will win this, they just want them to get further then iris. cilans never got past round 2 so he should reach at least the semis. and iris cant control dragonite so its not right for her to get to far. she needs to lose and then spend time working with dragonite

The only reason I see for someone wanting those 2 to get pass Iris yet NOT win is out of some resentment for her or her new Dragonite. Which is OK I guess, but it's not really productive to a rational talk on the topic.

And Iris IS working on the Dragonite problem ... here, in the tourney. Why else would she not fall back on using The Drill (who isn't at some huge type disadvantage and has the moves and power to be effective against Mamoswine) in the round RIGHT AFTER seeing that she has a problem with Dragonite? Dragonite's problem comes from not being use to having to working with a trainer and it's massive competitive drive to win ... so a tourney would be the prefect place to work on the problem, right (seeing as that's normally a place fore strong Pokemon and there's a viable way to see your progress against others)? If Iris can show that Dragonite can do better in battles if s/he works with her then that should be what resolves the problem ... so trying to use Dragonite again makes prefect sense to me.

 

[ConUxie223]

Iris must be the most constroverstrial character ever I mean look at these comments, they go on for half a page (I cant talk), but anyway.. This is a question to the opposition of Iris winning aganist Dawn and her Mamoswine, why would you want a character who's story has been finished and has more development than a current character to win over said character? Especially when I see no one complained over the May vs Dawn turnout, even if it was Dawn's "obdient" Piplup? I'm just asking because I find that unfair and kinda obvious bias feels for Iris, even if it is her Dragonite thats the problem, when it shouldnt be because at least she's training it- anyway, yeah thats my question to the opposition.

 

[AceDetective]

because winning when not being able to control the pokemon isn't good. its not showing how good a trainer iris is. having dragonite lose and then iris work with it a later date would be good for its development

 

[Pepsi_Plunge]

Sometimes I wish Trip didn't come after Paul, if people continue to have the mentality that Trip as a Paul rehash then they're going to be disappointed every time.

Thats exactly the issue, since the start, people talk crap on his character for no reason mostly due to that, I already said that a long time ago, if we didn't get Shinji none would be whining about Shooti, Shinji is my favourite rival but that won't cloud my judgement, unfortunatly it happens to a lot of people here, kinda like the "who is the better girl" little wars we get around here(yeah I know I made a similar post on this matter some time ago).

Plus why use Leavanny when it just got a win in the last gym and isn't learning anything?

They could have used Boldore/Unfezant/Palpitoad instead.

 

[MastersOfMonsters]

Hmm. Do we know who this 'new rival' is, yet? Cuz' I feel like we should have seen him at this time. Wasn't he/she suppose to be in the tournement? Or did I get that wrong?

 

[Tuskie Tyrant Yoko Kurama]

Dawn will be a tough opponent for Iris. Dawn could come up with many combinations she's used in contest to defend against Dragonite's attacks. I wonder will Iris pull it off?

 

[TsukiMirage]

what tournaments other than the tag tournament did Paul win in sinnoh? Cause I don't recall him being in anything else other than the pokeringer which is a more a pokethlon like sport than a battle.

Those are the only two, but that's the point. The argument was that if a character won once, then they apparently have no right to ever win again and that makes no sense.

Back to Iris and Dawn, you say Dawn gains nothing out of this, but does Iris get anything out of this competition either beyond this round? she beats her rival in the first round sure, but what else is there for her to truely gain from it? It's not like she's established she wishes to battle Alder as much as Trip and Ash do so what's the point? Don't say anything regarding Dragonite because not only have I heard enough rubbish from both sides of the fence, and she can try to get it to obey her outside the tournament, nothing says it has to be during it.

This is more of a reason why I think they should knock each other out, because beyond this match neither one has anything to gain from this tournament beyond this match, Ash and Trip are the only two who do which is why people assume so much out of them, does this gaurantee they'll win, no it does not.

Well, Iris could gain the understanding that there are more important things then winning or understanding of what's required to command a powerful dragon pokemon. Also, there would be far more reason to get it to obey her during the tournament then after. Anyway, there's also another reason to have Iris continue on and that's to lose to Ash or Trip, which would be a much better feat then some random trainer, right? Ash also owes Iris for the last tournament and it would be better for both of them if Ash succeed this time beating her.

It doesn't matter if her and Dragonite win battles "by the skin of their teeth", the point here is that she was still given a extremely strong Pokemon RIGHT BEFORE the tournament, when everyone else is using Pokemon they've trained up all season. Winning battles with said Pokemon would come across as cheap. You think it's good writing for her to advance past her main rival with a Pokemon she just received, while Langley uses a Pokemon she's trained all season?

Also, Iris, Cilan, Burgundy and Dawn...at this stage in the game, don't need to be portrayed as better than Ash and Trip. They're about to enter the league, hence why those two should be allowed to be the ones that have the best showing here. If Bianca were here I'd add her to the Ash/Trip side.

How does it not matter? The main issue people seem to have is this belief that Dragonite will simply sail through the tournament with no effort. If Dragonite needs to really work for it's wins, then it can hardly be called "extremely strong". And really, Iris is hardly the first person we've seen use a newly caught pokemon to win a competition. Hardly fair to solely call her out on it.

Also, if either Ash or Trip defeat a pokemon who was able to defeat pokemon who had a type advantage over it, would that be a pretty great showing?

Spoiler: dman_dustin;14857386

I'm pretty sure characters that have never won a tournament SHOULD take precedence over those that have

Which is by no means an actual rule, as past sagas have clearly shown.

It doesn't matter how it's done, Iris should not be winning this tournament with Dragonite alone, period. That's like giving Ash an Arceus before the league and somehow everyone's okay with winning the league.

Why not? If Ash caught Arceus, then it's his right to use to win. There is literally no rule that states a trainer can't caught a certain pokemon or must wait x amount of time to use it.

You do realize that the only way both Trip and Ash can show off their strength is battling and winning with their Pokemon against OTHER trainers. It's going to mean jack squat if Ash and Trip have a battle, especially if Trip magically somehow sweeps Ash's team like Paul did at Lake Acuity because of Trip's past fails, he can't just "sweep" Ash's team

But then again outside of Pignite, Pikachu and Leavanny, the rest of his team fails...so I guess its possible.

Right, because again, this is the only place we will every see those two have any sort of battles til the league...

Ash and Trip can battle each other and various other trainers beyond just this tournament. It's not like the league is happening right after. There is presumably plenty of time to build them up to league standards, which isn't even much going by what we've seen of past leagues. We've already seen ash make it though a league fine with basic and first stage pokemon. At best what? One, maybe two more evolutions and he'll have the same sort of league team he had last saga?

By the unfortunate chance of being paired up against Iris in the quarterfinals. Just by pure luck.

Plus Dawn hasn't won very many straight up battle wins (Conway helped her immensely in the Tag Battle). Most of her wins come from contest battles which don't require a knock out so contest battles really aren't a show of strength.

Iris has a better record than Dawn in straight up battling.

ON TOP of that, Dawn's Mamoswine obeys her, Iris's brand new Dragonite doesn't.

But she still has won them, more then the single one that Iris got. That was your logic.

If Iris is the better trainer, then logically, she should win. And again, you don't know how their relationship will be.

You can argue that contests are tournaments BUT the problem is Ash only enter two of these contests in Sinnoh, and didn't lose to Dawn anyway/

Wasn't speaking of contest but doesn't that still apply under your logic that winning once is all that's allowed?

I never said I wanted Dawn to win, God no, I don't care if they want to treat Dawn better than May did (which May lost to newbie Dawn), absolutely do I not want Dawn winning this tournament. The only person I want winning this tournament is Trip, to show that he's not a weak trainer who doesn't deserve to be Ash's main rival.

And if and only if, Trip and Ash have another battle PRIOR to the league, do I want Ash winning this tournament for the purposes of shaking up their rivalry.

See my favorite character, I don't really want winning this tournament. And Trip who I don't give a rat's rear end about can go ahead and win.

You've said that Dawn deserved it more. And I have said in the past that I would like Trip to win the tournament. But my wish for him to win doesn't mean I believe he's somehow "deserves" it more then any one else. Ash winning would also be nice and a real surprise. But in either case, defeating Iris in the semi-finals/finals would be a far greater feat then some random trainer and would have some good past history behind it in the case with Ash.

It is not beneficial for Iris's disobedient Pokemon to be the reason why Iris wins this tournament at all. And is just a show of overglorifying her character.

I never said Iris vs Dawn was the greatest match-up for Iris to learn a lesson, but by holy crap does Iris really need to progress any further.

Iris can learn that she can't rely on a Pokemon that's disobedient. She needs to learn that only by being in sync with her "obedient" Pokemon will she ever be strong.

Iris cannot ever hope to learn that lesson if Dragonite "beats" every opponent and having Iris winning and losing to Alder who only had a Druddigon in Black and White, and Drayden probably would've been the best choice her.

Drayden not being in this tournament drastically reduced any reason for Iris to go far in this tournament. SHE has no incentive to win, other than to show off undeserved strength. The only ones who have any incentive to win is Ash and Trip because Alder is the champion, and only by winning the League and challenging the Elite Four and winning can you have an official "Champion-Title" match with the champion.

It would be greatly beneficial if Iris herself came to said conclusion and willingly forfeited, now wouldn't it? Or if even if it causes he to lose, Dragonite still accepts the idea that he need to listen to his trainer to succeed. There's plenty of lessons that can be learnt that would also involve character growth over that tired and used on.

Again, where is she being glorified?

Iris herself may not have an incentive to win, but I see plenty for her getting far. Just beating Dragonite would be a feat, but if Trip beats her, he would have succeed against someone Ash didn't, and if Ash beats her, he would get payback for his previous lost.

As my "second" pointed if it was going to resolve in "two" episodes. Then what in the HELL WAS THE POINT?

There is no point whatsoever, nor is it good writing to create a problem such as disobedience just to resolve it in the EPISODE after the problem was introduced.

This isn't something like a Pokemon being disobedient because it's hungry and then they feed it and it obeys them.

This is a serious issue. Dragonite is overconfident in its ability. Being on the brink of defeat, in its second battle, and then magically deciding to listen to Iris and have it defeat Mamoswine, is bad writing in its finest.No way can you tell me that's good writing in any way shape or form.

Anyone who would create a serious problem for a trainer and their Pokemon in their first battle and then resolve it in the next "episode/chapter" for their second battle, should be ashamed of themselves.

Who says it would be resolved? Did you miss my example with Emolga? They can have Dragonite begin to listen and still keep it's competitiveness in battle, so that in a tough battle it will occasionally strike out on it's own instead of listening. I could easily see such a thing happening if it was to face say Haxorus.

Just because Dragonite will begin to listen to Iris doesn't mean that the issue with be completely resolved. It merely means the foundation will have been laid and that's good writing. The writers can then bring it up in later training battles and competitions so there's on-going effort to overcome it.

Uh...no. Ash isn't even remotely unstoppable. Did you conveniently miss my posts in other threads pointing out that Ash is not ready at all for the league. And his eighth gym battle proved this entirely. He needed six Pokemon just to defeat 3 of Roxie's Pokemon. PATHETIC. And I'll always say it Ash is my favorite character. But I don't put Ash on undeserving platform.

I'm not going to say that Ash deserves to make it to the finals of the League. I'm going to heavily criticize Ash as if I hated his guts. Because if the writers don't shape up I'm not going to believe it if Ash gets to the semi finals or finals of the Unova League.

So why should he win or even get far if he's not ready? Shouldn't he instead have trouble and lose early to show that he's not ready? To make it to the finals, Ash should presumably be near league level, right?

Even at league level, there is still a chance he could lose against the right opponent and that was my point.

Last time I checked, Ash was in this tournament too. Regardless of how they try and "focus" on Iris, Ash is still very much relevant to this tournament.

And as I was saying, Iris beating Dawn has nothing to do with Ash making it to the finals.

If I wanted Iris to make it to the semi-finals which I don't.

Sure I would love to see Ash's Krokorok evolving and kick Dragonite's rear end, only problem is I don't want Iris to beat Dawn.

She's had enough "luck" wins.

No reason at all to presume the win would be because of "luck".

Except she hasn't.

Using a pokemon in battle is still training, even if it's a tournament. And iris herself has been established as a skilled trainer.

Which can only be applied to examples such as Turtwig learning Energy Ball. There was NO indication that Axew was going to learn Outrage or even Giga Impact.

And if I recall right, there was no indication to imply they were on purpose.

Most of those examples hardly count as "official" battles, and are more comparable to sparring matches especially since most of them are incomplete). But thanks, I had forgotten about Cilan's victory over Burgundy.

They're battles with both sides attempting to succeed. And the point still remains that Iris initiates battles just as much as Cilan.

Those supposed other examples tended to only happen when a Pokemon evolved and learned a move. Plus only three (at the top of my head) of those examples resulted in victory with that brand new move. Other examples used other moves to win even those that didn't evolve (Scraggy, Swadloon, etc). And there's at least on example of both evolution and new move that didn't do squat (Monferno) to help the battle.

The point is, Axew COULD NOT have beating Luke's Golett without learning Outrage. At least if Axew were in the Junior Cup and beat CoTD's Cinncinno with Giga Impact, at least it's a little bit more believable than oh learning it right there and beating Cinncinno with it.

And the point remains that it's not unique to Iris to receive a win in that way. We've seen that a pokemon can learn a new move without any forewarning.

Except for all we know they're training every single off-screen episode possible. At least Trip is at least doing that.

We might see maybe 1 in every 10 episodes of focus on Iris, if we're lucky.

Right, so what's the problem with Iris being treated the same way?

Not nearly enough.

She gets as much as a secondary character would get, somewhat more then some secondary characters got.

And Ash used them frequently so they can be strong and experienced. Or they were naturally strong as they were.

Which really doesn't change my point.

Considering that being a Dragon Master has only partly to do with battling, yes.

same with being a coordinator or connoisseur.

Except neither are as strong as legendaries like Dragonite is.

Yet they got wins just as easily.

I'm pretty sure evolution had absolutely NOTHING to do at ALL with my points and arguments, since I've long agreed that Evolution is completely and utterly random in the anime. It has nothing to do with "deserving" it's about whether its fair to screw over a Pokemon form and then just evolve it in its next appearance.

We're still talking about the belief that a pokemon must be trained a bunch before they deserve anything.

Don't recall that analogy being comparable. But if Ash focuses on straight up battling, then yes Dawn should be able to beat Ash easily in contests battles. Likewise Ash should be able to beat Dawn easily in straight up knockout battles. It's bad enough that Ash loses as constantly as he does. How is he ever going to be a Pokemon Master, if most of his wins (especially) the difficult are won by "luck" and "barely" managing to win.

All of which (by the way) has nothing to do with Iris's skill whatsoever. Do I believe that Ash should be superior to Iris in battling? Yes.

Why? Because Ash wants to be a Pokemon Master.

Do I want Ash's superior skills to take Ash's potential future Dragon types and sweep the floor with Iris and her dragon types? No. However I won't go as far as to say that Iris should always win in a Dragon vs Dragon fight against Ash but she should have the advantage.

However with Axew barely being strong enough to be a contender, and Dragonite being disobedient. Quite frankly Ash's Gible should sweep both of them (well at least more effort against Dragonite than OHKO). Axew for being weaker, and Dragonite for being disobedient.

And as shown, Iris is plenty focused on battling and training her pokemon. It's been established that she's a skilled trainer and at the very best even with Ash. I've seen nothing to suggest that Ash has superior skills. Heck, given some of his battles, I would question the idea of even skills.

Axew has grown in strength, just like how Scraggy has grown in strength. It may not be a powerhouse, but it's clearly been shown capable of holding it's own. And Dragonite being competitive is quite different from being disobedient.

May I ask, what does wanting to be a pokemon master have to do with anything? Wanting to be one doesn't mean he has the skills of one.

It doesn't matter.

It's still a problem that doesn't need to be resolved easily or a continuing problem and Iris somehow manages to win the tournament on the sole point of Dragonite's strength.

No trainer should ever beat a tournament on sole brute strength of their Pokemon. It should be about skill and their Pokemon obeying them.

And while I would have problems with Iris winning yet another Tournament, and had Dragonite been without a problem, then maybe if Iris used her other Pokemon maybe I would be more accepting to Iris winning.

BUT NOT WITH A DISOBEDIENT POKEMON. AND ESPECIALLY NOT WHEN THAT DISOBEDIENCE COULD LIKELY BE RESOLVED TOO QUICKLY AND TOO SOON. (All Caps for the sole purpose of my MAIN reason why Iris's Dragonite should not beat Dawn's Mamoswine).

And until it's even implied that the problem is resolved easily or that Dragonite doesn't listen to a single word Iris says, you have nothing to dislike except personal preference on the winner. But considering a point has been made to show that Dragonite is competitive and it's implied that they do work together enough to establish a combo, I honestly doubt it's gonna be the way you seem to think. If it does look like that will happen, fine. But until then, it's far to soon to make any sort of judgment.

 

[Col-Erase]

because winning when not being able to control the pokemon isn't good. its not showing how good a trainer iris is. having dragonite lose and then iris work with it a later date would be good for its development

What if she can get Dragonite to start obeying her halfway into the Dawn battle and through out the rest of the tourney?

 

[EpicSquirtle]

What if she can get Dragonite to start obeying her halfway into the Dawn battle and through out the rest of the tourney?

Then that would be very unrealistic and a cheap way to make Iris go far. Personally I hope Dawn win's here and makes it to the semi finals but loses to Trip.

 

[thunderblade12]

Even though Ash and Trip are entering the League, it doesn't make them stronger than the others. Dawn and Cilan are accomplished coordinators and connoisseurs and Iris is growing as a dragon master. Sorry about any typos, I'm using a 3DS to typge this

 

[CyberCubed]

My predictions:

Semi-finals: Ash Vs. Cilan and Dawn Vs. Trip

Finals: Ash Vs. Trip

Winner: Trip battles Adeku

 

[Col-Erase]

Then that would be very unrealistic and a cheap way to make Iris go far. Personally I hope Dawn win's here and makes it to the semi finals but loses to Trip.

That's a call that can only be made after knowing the facts and seeing in what context the events play out. From the sound of it Dragonite not obeying isn't simply a case of Charizard where it simply thinks it's too strong for it's trainer so if that's the case than there are different ways it can be resolved.

 

[AceDetective]

What if she can get Dragonite to start obeying her halfway into the Dawn battle and through out the rest of the tourney?

then what was the point of making it disobedient if things can be resolved that easily? the only way I would possibly want iris to win is if she loses to trip in the next round. but I would prefer her to lose here. say she has a strategy to win but dragonite does its own thing and loses because of it. then after the tournament iris begins trying to fix the problem. eventually in another match dragonite gets a savage beatdown but this time when iris calls out a strategy dragonite remembers the fight with dawn and listens this time, leading to winning the match

 

[G50]

If Iris loses here, I could see her getting very angry at Dragonite, and taking out her frustration on it (yelling).