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Can Sawyer Sweep Tyson’s Team With His Mega Sceptile?

Discussion in 'Animé Polls' started by Genaller, Oct 9, 2019.

?

Can Mega Sceptile sweep Tyson’s team?

  1. Yes, and easily

    47.6%
  2. Yes, but with moderate difficulty

    14.3%
  3. Yes, but it would be tough

    4.8%
  4. 50/50 chance of going either way

    4.8%
  5. No; Mega Sceptile falls to Meowth

    4.8%
  6. No; Mega Sceptile falls to Metagross

    9.5%
  7. No; Mega Sceptile falls before even reaching Metagross

    14.3%
  1. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Just curious to see how views align on this question. My answer would be a resounding yes! Honestly speaking I don’t think any of them are even remotely comparable to Mega Sceptile in sheer power and speed not to mention that none of them have a reliable answer for guided Frenzy Plant for which Ash and Ash-Greninja needed their synchronized sensations to have A-G outmaneuver it successfully. Remember that (Mega) Sceptile was able to beat both Tierno’s Blastoise and Raichu whilst taking zero damage. Let’s say Mega Sceptile faces Tyson’s team in this order:

    1. Shiftry
    2. Donphan
    3. Hariyama
    4. Sceptile
    5. Metagross
    6. Meowth
     
  2. Emboar_Rulez

    Emboar_Rulez Lost my profile picture when Ash beat Kukui

    Sceptile will easily sweep his team
     
  3. Pokegirl Fan~

    Pokegirl Fan~ Anta Baka!

  4. Emboar_Rulez

    Emboar_Rulez Lost my profile picture when Ash beat Kukui

    tysons meowth couldnt touch him.
     
  5. Kuzehiko

    Kuzehiko Well-Known Member

    Yes, with ease.
     
  6. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 #TEAMSOBBLE

    Yes, though Metagross may give him a bit of damage, but not enough to be a big problem
     
  7. BabaVanga

    BabaVanga Well-Known Member

    Tyson probably has a Mega Sceptile/Mega Metagross of his own now so, nah.

    Even if Sawyer somehow traveled back in time to battle him I doubt because his Mega Sceptile was never shown as a team sweeper, and we're talking about sweeping League Conference winner here. I can see him defeating max 3 of Tyson's Pokémon.
     
    ash&charizardfan likes this.
  8. Lionel_B

    Lionel_B Well-Known Member

    Sawyer remains a beginner, so against a guy with more experience who has won a league, he will not win easily. Stop pretending that everything coming from XY was perfect ...

    And then seriously, with the Gigantamax combined with Tyson's Meowth, Mega-Sceptile would have no chance xD.
     
  9. Lunanight

    Lunanight Well-Known Member

    Mega Sceptile was E4 ace level though, and any E4 ace would sweep Tyson's team negative difficulty. Hell, even base Sceptile would sweep Tyson's team given its on-par with Ash's base Greninja... which is around on-par with Infernape and Paul's Electivire. I don't think anyone would object to my point that Paul's Electivire would easily sweep Tyson's team 6-0, so why do people think Sawyer's Mega Sceptile would struggle when its E4 ace level? I feel like a lot of people just forget how strong Sawyer's Sceptile was, be it as Mega Sceptile or even in its base form.

    Instead, they continually make the fallacy of assuming that "experience=power"... even though most people would agree that Paul's Drapion (caught in the latter half of DP) is significantly stronger than his Honchkrow and especially his Weavile, which both have far more experience than Drapion (same holds true if you replace Drapion with Ursaring).

    People mention Tyson's Metagross, but what most people forget is that Tyson's Metagross best feat was beating Hoenn League Grovyle. Beating HL Grovyle 1v1 isn't even that impressive, since it was only B- tier at the very best (if not just C+ tier). All beating Grovyle does is show that Metagross is at least B tier, but more likely B+ tier. HL Swellow probably could have beaten or tied with Metagross 1v1 if it wasn't worn down from sweeping two of Tyson's Pokemon back-to-back.

    Being a pseudo-legendary doesn't mean jack, since pseudos are absurdly overrated by people for really stupid reasons that don't even apply to the anime. By feats alone, Tyson's Sceptile and Meowth performed much better against Glalie and Pikachu (both of which were stronger than Grovyle) than Metagross against Grovyle and a basically-fainted Swellow. If people really think Tyson's Metagross was stronger than Ash's Swellow 1v1, then by that logic, Ash's Gliscor would be stronger than Paul's Drapion (it isn't, and not even close).

    In fact, to explain in further detail why Sawyer's Sceptile vs Tyson's entire team would be a lopsided mismatch:
    • Tyson's Pokemon were Metagross (B+ tier), Sceptile (B tier), Meowth (B tier), Donphan (C+ tier), Hariyama (C+ tier), and Shiftry (D)
    • Sawyer's base Sceptile is S tier (same tier as Paul's Electivire), whereas Mega Sceptile is SS tier (E4 ace level).
    • The gap between Sawyer's base Sceptile and Tyson's Metagross is 5 sub-tiers, which is the same as the gap between Barry's Empoleon (B+) and Paul's Electivire (S)
    • The gap between Sawyer's Mega Sceptile and Tyson's Metagross is 8 sub-tiers, which is the same as the gap between Ash's Swellow (B+) and Tobias' Latios (SS)
    • Any Elite Four's ace Pokemon can effortlessly sweep Tyson's entire team 6-0
    • Sawyer's base Sceptile would easily beat Tyson 6-0, and Mega Sceptile would just OHKO all of Tyson's Pokemon 6-0.
    Why do people keep making this fallacy that winning a League somehow makes you better than trainer who hasn't won a League? Paul got Top 8 at the Sinnoh League, so by your logic, would Tyson be a better trainer than him too, right? We both know the answer is 'no', because nobody would unironically think Tyson is a better trainer than Paul.

    Also, you forget that Tyson BARELY WON against Ash's Hoenn League team, when HL Ash was the 2nd best trainer in the Hoenn League despite the Hoenn team being clearly weaker than the Johto League team by a wide margin. The only thing that Tyson winning the Hoenn League proves is that he is barely better than HL Ash (and by extension, everyone else who entered the Hoenn League that specific year) and that's it. Do you honestly think that Tyson winning the Hoenn League puts him in the same tier as Tobias or Alain? If you don't think so, then winning the Hoenn League is an irrelevant argument.

    Again, people like to downplay Sawyer so much that they forget that yes, his base Sceptile would sweep Tyson's entire team 6-0 (as could Ash's Infernape or Paul's Electivire for that matter). Mega Sceptile would make it even more one-sided than it already was, since Sawyer's Mega Sceptile is E4 level. So unless you think that Tobias' Darkrai couldn't just sweep Tyson 6-0 with negative difficulty,

    Also, why bother bringing up XY? Nobody here thinks XY was perfect; you're the only one assuming XY is relevant. If anything, its the trendy thing to bash XY while singing SM's praises the very second Ash wins a joke league. Just because Sawyer's base Sceptile or Mega Sceptile would sweep Tyson 6-0 with sheer ease doesn't mean people think XY is perfect; you're the first person to even mention XY in this thread. It just means Sawyer's Sceptile would dominate Tyson's entire team 6-0. You can't handwave objective facts as being praise for XY. Sawyer's base Sceptile is in the same tier as Infernape, base Greninja, and Paul's Electivire. Mega Sceptile is straight-up E4 ace level.
     
    JC317, Ignition and mehmeh1 like this.
  10. Lionel_B

    Lionel_B Well-Known Member

    I especially think that if Tyson and Sawyer had to fight each other, it would be in a context that would allow the 2 characters to be balanced and coherent with a certain state of mind.

    Because, since BW, each cycle has its own spirit state that differs from the others and does not need to be consistent with what has been done before, and obviously that of XY is "we must do everything to look perfect". So I'm assuming that a fight between the 2 would be placing in a particular context that would put them on par, and so I better imagine Tyson was winning.
     
    BabaVanga likes this.
  11. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Based on what?You're pretty much saying it's in the same ballpark as Ash's Charizard,Brandon's Registeel,Ash's Sceptile which is complete BS.
     
    SerGoldenhandtheJust likes this.
  12. SerGoldenhandtheJust

    SerGoldenhandtheJust Well-Known Member

    I love how he puts up his assumptions on which tiers as facts and his whole argument is sooo assumption opinionated based lmao
    Will Sawyer beat Tyson? Yes sure. Will he sweep him? No.
     
  13. BabaVanga

    BabaVanga Well-Known Member

    Based on what? With its type adventage, it should've beat Ash-Greninja more than once to even be close to E4 level
    I beg to differ
    I would. How many teams did it sweep so far?
    I agree that "experience=/=power", but that's only one of this show's problems
    Because AG didn't have to hype up Ash's rivals to make him look strong without letting him win the League (*cough* Tobias, *cough* Alain)
    Again, did any of these ever sweep any team?
    Its Legendary, 'course it could
    I mean it's quite clear XY (and to a lesser extent DP) rivals seem so powerful because these series needed it to justify Ash's League loss - one strong trainer for Ash to beat (Paul/Sawyer) and one Gary Stu to beat Ash (Tobias/Alain). Had they appear in OS-AG, they wouldn't be as strong.
     
    SerGoldenhandtheJust likes this.
  14. Lunanight

    Lunanight Well-Known Member

    Mega Sceptile is E4 ace level whereas Ash-Greninja was E4 Mega Ace level. The gap between them was so big that a mere type advantage wouldn't be enough. I think you made the mistake of thinking that Ash-Greninja was equal to Mega Sceptile, when actually Ash-Greninja was basically twice as strong as Mega Sceptile. If Alain's Mega Charizard X as it was in the Kalos League battled Siebold's base Blastoise, then Blastoise would get dominated by MCX just as hard as Ash-Greninja dominated Mega Sceptile.

    I think it was Clemont (or some other character in XY) who mentioned the boost from Mega Evolution doubles a Pokemon's overall ability, in other words the boost from Mega Evolution moves a Pokemon up one tier. Bond Phenomenon is even stronger than Mega Evolution, boosting Greninja up two whole tiers (hence why Ash-Greninja can keep up with MCX). So Ash-Greninja vs Mega Sceptile being in the former's favour is what literally anyone should have expected.

    To make a DBZ analogy, Ash-Greninja would be like having Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta fight Super Saiyan 2 Goku with both fighting at full power. The only way Vegeta could win in this case is if he were twice as strong as base Goku; the only way Sawyer's Mega Sceptile could beat Ash-Greninja is if base Sceptile were an entire tier above base Greninja (which isn't true, since both are equal in base).

    So we're talking about the same league where Ash vs Katie (literally a CotD) was unironically better than Ash vs Morrison or Ash vs Tyson. AG didn't hype up Ash's rivals because he basically didn't have any main rivals in AG; Morrison was basically a League rival with the way he was handled. That isn't something to praise AG for; Ash not having a main rival in AG was simply bad writing. The only reason AG didn't have a Tobias/Alain type character is because Ash didn't have any main rival whatsoever.

    Imagine if DP never had Paul whatsoever and Ash's only rival in that series would be Barry who doesn't debut until after Ash already beat Volkner, with the full battles literally Ash vs Random CotD, Ash vs Barry, and Ash vs Tobias... that is basically what the Hoenn League actually was.

    No, DP/XY rivals were powerful because they were powerful. You're overthinking things. If the writers wanted to justify Ash's loss in XY, they never would have given him Ash-Greninja. They could have just not given him Ash-Greninja, nor given Sawyer and Alain any Mega Evolutions. That way, Alain's base Charizard would still beat base Greninja 1v1 in the Kalos League finals. Why? Because Alain's base Charizard is E4 ace level. Base Greninja and Sawyer's base Sceptile are stronger than BF Pikachu or Brandon's Regice/Registeel, but probably weaker than some of the other Pokemon in the same tier (i.e. Paul's Electivire, Infernape, BF Sceptile, BF Charizard).

    Also, the burden of proof is on you. You say that if they appeared in OS-AG that they wouldn't be as strong, but you can't prove that. Harrison was a stronger trainer than Tyson, despite AG taking place after OS. Cameron appeared in BW, but I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that Cameron would beat someone like Tyson or Harrison. If the DP/XY rivals appeared in OS-AG, they would have been just as strong as they would without Mega Evolution.

    If Paul/Sawyer/Tobias/Alain appeared in OS-AG, they would still be just as strong as they were without Mega Evolution. Less so for Tobias, but he would still be equally as strong in OS-AG. In AG, he could use Latios, in Johto he could still use his Latios since Harrison had two gen 3 Pokemon on his team, and Tobias could just use Entei or one of the three Kanto birds if they had him in the Kanto League. Alain would still be just as strong since at least half his team is on-par with Tyson/Harrison's regulars while Bisharp is a fair bit stronger than Tyson's Metagross. The only notable Pokemon that Alain had were base Charizard (E4 ace level) and his Metagross (stronger than BF Charizard, but weaker than the E4 ace level BW Charizard).

    If we ignore Sawyer's Sceptile and Tyson's Meowth, both their teams are overall comparable. So Sawyer would still be just as strong in OS-AG as he was in XY without Mega Evolution. Paul would also still be just as strong since he could have used any of his Pokemon. 4 of his 6 Pokemon from the Sinnoh League team would be around the level of Tyson/Harrison's regular Pokemon. In AG, simply swapping Electivire+Drapion for Ursaring+Magmorar would put him as a reasonable League crusher for Ash. In Johto, he could literally use his Sinnoh League team without any changes. In Kanto, we don't know how strong the very strongest of the Kanto League were when Ash entered it, but based on how it was when Ash entered, Paul could probably win with the team he had when he battled Cynthia (Torterra, Elekid, Murkrow, Weavile, Chimchar, Ursaring).

    TL;DR: Ash-Greninja was much stronger than Mega Sceptile that the latter's type advantage was completely irrelevant. AG had terrible writing for the Hoenn League. DP/XY rivals seemed so powerful because they really were that powerful. If they were in OS-AG or in BW, they would still be just as strong as they were without Mega Evolution, especially in the case of Paul and Sawyer.
     
    mehmeh1 likes this.
  15. BabaVanga

    BabaVanga Well-Known Member

    I respectfully disagree. I don't think Mega Sceptile feats put it on E4 ace level, just like I don't think Ash-Greninja feats put him on E4 Mega ace level.
    I agree, that's why I don't think Mega Sceptile is E4 ace level.
    Scott once said Frontier Brains are E4 level. I wouldn't pay that much attention to what characters say.
    The point is none of them had special Pokémon or were build up as these strong trainers like Paul, Sawyer, Alain or even Tobias were.
    They had to showcase Mega Evolutions somehow. Giving Megas to Ash's rivals and giving Ash Mega-like form was the best way to do it.
    It is because fans were pissed when Ash lost to a trainer with Legendaries and were pissed when he lost to an idiot with strong team before. If they made Alain's Mega ace anywhere below E4 level and make him beat Ash at the league, fans will be pissed to. Sawyer existed because Ash needed strong trainer to beat before facing Alain. If Sawyer didn't exist, the backlash from Kalos League loss would be even bigger.
    So was Ash's Johto team, and the writers clearly didn't want to bring reserves for the Hoenn League.
    Cameron was a direct results of Ash's loss against Tobias. I don't know what the writers were thinking for making Ash lose to him, I just know they didn't want Ash to lose to glorified CotD with a team of Legendaries again.
    Not as Ash's rivals.
     
  16. Lunanight

    Lunanight Well-Known Member

    Well Mega Charizard X is unquestionably Mega E4 ace level, so by extension, base Charizard would be E4 ace level. Meaning that Ash-Greninja would need to be Mega E4 ace level to do as well as it did. Its just that Bond Phenomenon provides a much bigger boost Mega Evolution, which explains why base Sceptile and base Greninja were equally matched yet Ash-Greninja dominated Mega Sceptile. It also explains how Ash-Greninja can compete with Alain's Mega Charizard X despite the fact that base Greninja is significantly weaker than Alain's base Charizard.

    Well of course Scott would want to exaggerate how strong the Frontier Brains are, given he runs the Battle Frontier. Obviously not everything characters say is true, since Tobias implied Gible would OHKO his Latios with Draco Meteor despite the fact that wouldn't be true at all. But the point about Mega Evolution boost has been consistently proven though, unlike the Scott and Tobias examples. You can argue whether the boost is literally double or not, but it is enough to boost a Pokemon up by an entire tier.

    Malva's Houndoom is an E4 ace, therefore it is E4 ace level. Mega Houndoom is therefore E4 Mega Ace level. Alain's Mega Charizard X beat Mega Houndoom, and thus Mega Charizard X would beat any E4 member's Mega ace the same way it beat Mega Houndoom. Contrary to popular belief, Malva is just as strong as every other E4 member in the anime. Alain's MCX being E4 Mega Ace level is pretty obvious, and if Ash-Greninja was weaker than E4 Mega ace level then it would have got dominated the way Mega Sceptile got dominated by Ash-Greninja.

    Ritchie swept every single trainer he battled prior to Ash 3-0, and given the way the Kanto League's rules were (being put to sleep was a KO, switching was a KO, etc), the implied feat is that Ritchie swept trainers 3-0 with one Pokemon for the first 3-4 rounds of the Kanto League. It sounds like an absurd feat, but Ritchie really was hyped up as a strong trainer even despite only having one fully evolved Pokemon; the only reason he struggled against Ash's heavily weakened team so much was bad writing, the same bad writing that had Astrid's Mega Absol lose to Hawlucha. The gap between Hawlucha and Mega Absol was even bigger than the gap between Barry's Empoleon and Paul's Electivire, so the fact Hawlucha even won that battle was actually stupid. Especially since the Mega Evolution Specials were canon to XY, meaning that Astrid's Mega Absol holding its ground against a much weaker Mega Charizard X (that was merely base E4 ace level at the time or just slightly better at most).

    Harrison had 2 gen III Pokemon back in Johto, serving as a walking Gen III advertisement. Even when he lost to Jon Dickson, the only reason he lost was because he couldn't use Blaziken from all the damage it took against Ash's Charizard. Despite this, Jon Dickson only beat Harrison 6-5. Meaning if Harrison actually used Blaziken, he would have beat Jon Dickson 6-5 or even 6-4. To a much lesser extent, while Gary didn't beat Ash in the Johto League, even he was hyped up too by the wide variety of Pokemon he had obtained. IIRC, he had caught over 100 Pokemon in Kanto... I forget the exact number, but it was a massive amount that made him somewhat unpredictable.

    The only 'normal' rival in OS-AG was Tyson, which is slightly questionable given the focus his Meowth got for its little backstory. That Meowth was special enough to get a more detailed backstory than basically any of Paul's Pokemon, not counting Chimchar back when he owned it. Tobias' two Pokemon weren't given any backstory, nor was Tobias himself. Sawyer's Pokemon had no backstory as detailed as Tyson's Meowth, and Sceptile being the starter doesn't count. Alain's Pokemon aside from Charizard were irrelevant, and Charizard's backstory was almost entirely to do with Alain and Sycamore's interactions than with Charizard itself.

    The odd thing is that Tyson himself was a normal guy who, as far as its implied, was competing in his first League. We knew Gary and Harrison had competed in the Kanto League and Hoenn League respectively prior to the Johto League, and that Paul travelled competed in all three of those Leagues prior to the Sinnoh League. If Tyson was an experienced trainer like Paul, or even merely like Harrison/Gary, then I think they would have said about him having entered the Kanto League or something. So I always just assumed that Tyson's very first League was the Hoenn League, and that he simply was simply a better trainer than everyone else in the Hoenn League (not counting Ash's reserves obviously).
     
  17. Zoruagible

    Zoruagible Lover of underrated characters

    Hahahaha
    Tyson would easily win. If Sawyer needs a Mega to win then you clearly know whose the better trainer.
    And if it happened in today's time, Tyson would definitely have a Mega Metagross.... he'd still win.

    Could Paul or Gary beat Tyson? Yes. Can Sawyer? No.
     
    PokemonBattleFanatic- likes this.
  18. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Tyson does have a more balanced team
    Well it did defeat both Swellow/Grovyle along with giving Pikachu some trouble before going down so........
    No brainer there
    Without Mega Evolution no he cannot
     
  19. Captain Jigglypuff

    Captain Jigglypuff Leader of Jigglypuff Army Staff Member Moderator

    For the most part yes. Mega Sceptile can just plow right through each of Tyson’s Pokémon except for Metagross. That one could easily resist most of Sceptile’s attacks and still be able to cause damage in the process. Dragon and Grass attacks would barely phase Metagross and a couple of Hyper Beams could give Sawyer a run for his money. Metagross being part Psychic also doesn’t help and it could easily use its Psychic powers to disable Sceptile. The only real way for Sceptile to cause major damage is if it knew Crunch, Throat Chop, Bulldoze, or Dig. Dig would be too weak and the other three won’t get STAB to hurt Metagross even more.
     
  20. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    TYSON

    Tier 1
    - (N/A)

    Tier 2 - (Metagross) (Hariyama) (Sceptile) (Meowth)

    Tier 3 - (Donphan)

    Tier 4
    - (Shiftry)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    SAWYER

    Tier 1 - (Sceptile)

    Tier 2 - (Clawitzer)

    Tier 3 - (Slaking) (Slurpuff) (Aegislash)

    Tier 4 - (Salamence)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    GARY

    Tier 1 - (Blastoise)

    Tier 2 - (Umbreon) (Electivire) (Scizor)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    PAUL

    Tier 1 - (Torterra) (Electivire) (Drapion) (Ursaring)

    Tier 2 - (Magmortar) (Honchkrow) (Nidoking) (Hariyama) (Gliscor)

    Tier 3 - (Aggron) (Froslass) (Gastrodon) (Ninjask)

    Tier 4 - (Weavile)
     

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