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Championing a Research Battle! (921)

If you were making sure somebody was capable of saving the world from devastation probably far stronger than yourself, would you go easy on them or pull all your punches to make sure they can actually save the world in the first place?
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
I personally found this episode to be decent but I do think the battle is a bit overhyped to be honest. I mean yeah Greninja hit Gardevoir and all (only twice I think and even then after the first hit, Gardevoir still looked very fine) but I still think Diantha is kind of dull as a character and the overall background being a plain field was a bit boring. The animation was also a bit weird in some parts of the episode. Overall I'll give it a 7.5-8/10.
 
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UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
God now there are seriously people believing, that Diantha is weaker than other champions because her Gardevoir got put into a corner once. Also immediately putting her under Steven, because Alain struggled against him.

It was clearly shown during the beginning, that Diantha wanted to test Ash and Greninja out. One-shoting Greninja would be dumb if Diantha wanted to know how strong he got. The same for Malva and Alains fight in ME4. Both Ash and Greninja own a significant power boost and Greninja boost seems to be more bigger than a simple Mega-Evolution. If Ash-Greninja is considered to be near as strong as a legendary, then I think it's no wonder if Champions could struggle against them. And Alains actually somehow "defeated" a legendary with M-Charizard vs Zygarde.
 

WaterShuriken

"I..I..Iron Tail, Pikachu."
So Gardevoir never had Teleport. Her 4th move was Psychic. Makes sense why she never used it against Greninja. The only possible way I figure she could use it was redirecting a Water Shuriken but I am sure those are too fast to concentrate on them.
 

CupidKirby

Well-Known Member
Ash Greninja might be faster and stronger, but Mega Gardevoir gets much faster and A LOT stronger that Gardevoir in games is tied for 9th for the special attacker of the highest stat. To put that in perspective. Normal Rayquaza's Draco Meteor (the strongest STAB move it can learn with the 150 Sp. Attack stat) would be LESS effective against Greninja than Moonblast would, for the simple fact that Moonblast deals twice as much damage TO Greninja so instead of looking at Moonblast with 95 base power, it would be 190 pretty much.

I just wanted to point out that this is nearly irrelevant because we don't actually know what the stats/typing/abilities of Ash-Greninja are.

We also don't know how strong the new Water Shuriken actually is. All we have to go on is that it's stronger than Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball which, even without STAB, is pretty strong. You can't automatically make the assumption that Moonblast would then stop Water Shuriken because A > B and C > B does not imply C > A.

If anything the fact she was taken so much surprise by Ash Greninja also likely contributed to her not trying as hard.

If the challenger comes up with something that surprises the Champion enough that she almost loses, then I doubt the referee would call a red flag against the challenger for being 'unfair'. The Champion is supposed to think on their feet and take the appropriate counter measure. Assuming that she was just playing with Ash, the very fact that Diantha let the match tip so badly against her favor means that Ash had done well enough that she couldn't come up with a counter measure. It doesn't make this impressive showing worth any less for Ash.

I personally found this episode to be decent but I do think the battle is a bit overhyped to be honest. I mean yeah Greninja hit Gardevoir and all (only twice I think and even then after the first hit, Gardevoir still looked very fine) but I still think Diantha is kind of dull as a character and the overall background being a plain field was a bit boring. The animation was also a bit weird in some parts of the episode. Overall I'll give it a 7.5-8/10.

Counting by what reflect is actually supposed to do, Greninja hit Gardevoir five times.
 
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hottom3rd

Well-Known Member
Instead of focusing on whether or not Diantha "tried" or not (which I believe she did ultimately try and almost got wiped), I am simply happy that Ash & Greninja have reached this level. I do NOT think that greninja is the only special component for the "synchro" power up though, because Ash is a very different breed of trainer and has to be pretty tough to suffer "shared pain" with super ninja during the synch.

I will continue to replay this battle and simply enjoy the fact that Ash has some serious potential to make a lasting impression in the league.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Even if Greninja had protean, which as much as I would like to believe, the problem is AT this point it makes no sense to assume it does. Though I wouldn't be surprised if "Ash-Greninja" in the games had Protean.

I just don't think Protean MATTERS until its mentioned in the anime. So we have to assume unless contradicted officially Greninja keeps its dark typing.

I just wanted to point out that this is nearly irrelevant because we don't actually know what the stats/typing/abilities of Ash-Greninja are.
Pretty sure we have to assume Greninja is faster and stronger, while very little was gained in defense BECAUSE of Alain's Charizard's Blast Burn. Which implies it cannot take direct hits.

We also don't know how strong the new Water Shuriken actually is. All we have to go on is that it's stronger than Mega Gardevoir's Shadow Ball which, even without STAB, is pretty strong. You can't automatically make the assumption that Moonblast would then stop Water Shuriken because A > B and C > B does not imply C > A.
But you're forgetting, Moonblast is not only a stronger attack than shadow ball, it also benefits from STAB.

The only plausible way to believe that Water Shuriken would be STRONGER than the CHAMPION'S Ace's STRONGEST move. Is if Ash Greninja had a SEVERE increase in the attack stat. We're talking about a 75 point increase with maybe the remaining 25 point increase in speed if game-wise Ash Greninja is like mega evolution and Greninja gains a 100 stat boost.

And even then the only feasible belief that it could overpower Moonblast would be if it had an ability that increased Stab.

I can give Ash Greninja the benefit of wild unrestrained unlimited power but even so I very much doubt that would be as effective. Shadow ball was used for plot purposes.

I'd definitely be singing a different tune if we had the same thing but with Moonblast, but Shadow ball LITERALLY is pointless move on Gardevoir except for ghost types especially against a Pokemon like Greninja which means it made perfect sense to use, because it was the most believable move that could directly strike Greninja without knocking it out (resistance) and a move that can be overpowered. Since Shadow Ball is not benefited by it unlike say Mega Gengar, in which case the move of choice would likely be dark pulse which is identical to shadow ball but it doesn't benefit from Gengar and is resisted BY Greninja.


If the challenger comes up with something that surprises the Champion enough that she almost loses, then I doubt the referee would call a red flag against the challenger for being 'unfair'. The Champion is supposed to think on their feet and take the appropriate counter measure. Assuming that she was just playing with Ash, the very fact that Diantha let the match tip so badly against her favor means that Ash had done well enough that she couldn't come up with a counter measure.

She was testing Ash, seeing what he would do, she never had time to come up with a countermeasure because this was something she had never seen before. I'm sure even a champion needs time to figure out countermeasures to something never seen before. When you're dealing with completely unfamiliar territory you can't just pull out something out your butt that "might" work in countering something different.

A champion would need time to see the battle, play defensively, FIGURE out the weakness of the opponent Pokemon. Time is what Diantha needed, Time was not given to her. But eventually Diantha would've countered Ash Greninja figuring out its weakness and then using it to her advantage.

After all how many times has Ash done the same thing. Figure out a weakness or exploit a weakened side to acheive victory. He did it in the Olympia Battle and he did it here again BEFORE Ash Greninja which allowed Greninja to strike Gardevoir, it was a very similar tactic Ash used against Olympia and her Meowstic.

And for an example but I'm going to be vague, because it's the point that matters then the actual example and this is from a different show.

There was a Character (A) who was Fighting Character (B). B had an ability that was hard to counter and seemed unfair. A needed time to counter it. Taking hits and blows from B using his ability, A figured out how to counter B and therefore was able to fight on a more even playing field.

It doesn't make this impressive showing worth any less for Ash.
I never said it was, I was saying not to overpower Ash and Greninja while sacrificing what Diantha represents. Ash can get clean hits on a Champion's Pokemon without thinking that Ash could've knocked out Mega Gardevoir as well, and only didn't because of a convenient "Ash falls unconscious"
 

CupidKirby

Well-Known Member
I want to make it clear here by the way, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I also think Ash-Greninja wouldn't have fared well against Moonblast if he got hit. I'm just seeing holes in some of your arguments.

But you're forgetting, Moonblast is not only a stronger attack than shadow ball, it also benefits from STAB.

The only plausible way to believe that Water Shuriken would be STRONGER than the CHAMPION'S Ace's STRONGEST move. Is if Ash Greninja had a SEVERE increase in the attack stat. We're talking about a 75 point increase with maybe the remaining 25 point increase in speed if game-wise Ash Greninja is like mega evolution and Greninja gains a 100 stat boost.

And even then the only feasible belief that it could overpower Moonblast would be if it had an ability that increased Stab.

I can give Ash Greninja the benefit of wild unrestrained unlimited power but even so I very much doubt that would be as effective. Shadow ball was used for plot purposes.

Those are a lot of wild assumptions you're making there. Even if the power level of moves apply to the anime (which they don't), Giant Water Shuriken could have 200 power for all we know, Ash-Greninja could have an attack stat that trumps Mega Gardevoir's Sp.Attack, Ash-Greninja has been implied to be more powerful than a mega and hence could receive more than 100 points of increase, and Greninja obviously gets STAB Water Shuriken as well.

I think the fact that normal Water Shuriken with its measly power could match Shadow ball in a clash is evidence enough anyways that our precious game stats don't exactly apply so well here. I have reason to believe that Moonblast would either still be blown away by Giant Water Shuriken or ends in an exploding tie.

She was testing Ash, seeing what he would do, she never had time to come up with a countermeasure because this was something she had never seen before. I'm sure even a champion needs time to figure out countermeasures to something never seen before. When you're dealing with completely unfamiliar territory you can't just pull out something out your butt that "might" work in countering something different.

That's one of the major points of being able to come up with counter measures; to face things you've never seen before. As a champion, you see new and interesting ways that challengers utilize moves every single day. Often times, you see this strategy for the first time at the same second that you suddenly have to overcome it. If Diantha nearly lost every time something "new" popped up, she wouldn't be Champion in the first place.

So you essentially have two options here: that Diantha either 1) sucks at on-the-fly thinking, or 2) that she didn't come up with a countermeasure because Ash didn't let her. Either way, Diantha was not in control of the entire match and (pardon me if I'm misinterpreting this) I don't know why you insist that she was.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Those are a lot of wild assumptions you're making there. Even if the power level of moves apply to the anime (which they don't), Giant Water Shuriken could have 200 power for all we know, Ash-Greninja could have an attack stat that trumps Mega Gardevoir's Sp.Attack, Ash-Greninja has been implied to be more powerful than a mega and hence could receive more than 100 points of increase, and Greninja obviously gets STAB Water Shuriken as well.

I think the fact that normal Water Shuriken with its measly power could match Shadow ball in a clash is evidence enough anyways that our precious game stats don't exactly apply so well here. I have reason to believe that Moonblast would either still be blown away by Giant Water Shuriken or ends in an exploding tie.
Again I would agree with this if Gardevoir use Moonblast instead of Shadowball.

Considering it looked like Water Shuriken BARELY overpowered Shadow Ball to begin with.

If people aren't going to acknowledge that shadow ball is weaker than Moonblast then I'm not sure why this part of the conversation needs to go.

Because people keep forgetting that Shadow ball is Gardevoir's weakest attack (if she does have psychic) as well as just the simple fact that Gardevoir does not benefit

Meanwhile Moonblast is Mega Gardevoir's STRONGEST move, and benefits from being launched by a Gardevoir/Mega Gardevoir.

That's one of the major points of being able to come up with counter measures; to face things you've never seen before. As a champion, you see new and interesting ways that challengers utilize moves every single day. Often times, you see this strategy for the first time at the same second that you suddenly have to overcome it. If Diantha nearly lost every time something "new" popped up, she wouldn't be Champion in the first place.
That wasn't MY POINT. My point was she was too laid back during the battle to properly think, if this was a realistic battle, Greninja would've lost before becoming Ash Greninja

The fact is she was testing Greninja she was seeing it, due to her laidback nature during the beginning of the battle she was caught offguard because she wasn't on high alert ready to expect anything because she underestimated Ash and his Greninja it cost her greatly.

But at the same time, I'm lost as to why people think that a Champion would be able to counter something like "THIS" in a short amount of time and BECAUSE she didn't counter it she somehow suck and is a weak champion.

It makes no sense that people would underestimate Diantha like this JUST BECAUSE she couldn't counter Ash Greninja in a short amount of time and overestimated Ash and his Greninja because of it.

Why? I realize people are sick of Ash and want him to be removed from the anime, but I'd rather take a reasonable step towards the belief that Ash can take out an Elite Four Member and a champion at a reasonable pace, rather than believe "WOW if Ash didn't pass out, Diantha would've lost, Ash is a powerful champion level trainer that CANNOT be defeated EVER CONFIRMED!!!!111!!!.

I mean come on, I hate the logic that either Ash sucks and therefore Diantha sucks because of the battle, or Diantha plainly sucks at battling and doesn't deserve to be champion all over the idea that Ash made headway into having a strong Pokemon, and because Ash and Greninja worked together they managed to make some nice hits on Gardevoir all while believing even though Ash did this, in the end he ultimately WOULD lose to Diantha because Diantha being the champion would've eventually countered and brought down Ash Greninja.

I mean why do people insist on believing on wildly out of control and out of order power levels of characters and their Pokemon. On this logic, Wulfric is a more powerful opponent to Ash Greninja than Diantha was because of what's going to happen in regards to Wulfric.

Also Sawyer being stronger than Diantha too? Because....he beat Wulfric and is making Ash struggle in his battle? Oh well I mean to be fair, maybe its because of the lack of Ash Greninja....but even still what are people really thinking here?

So you essentially have two options here: that Diantha either 1) sucks at on-the-fly thinking, or 2) that she didn't come up with a countermeasure because Ash didn't let her. Either way, Diantha was not in control of the entire match and (pardon me if I'm misinterpreting this) I don't know why you insist that she was.
I'm sorry this doesn't make any sense. How could anyone argue Diantha was in full control of the ENTIRE match IF she wasn't "trying" and was "testing" and because of it she got caught offguard.

I didn't say she was in full control I said she was in control and was losing control when Ash caught her offguard.

I'm suggesting Diantha would've eventually regained full control of the battle to defeat Ash Greninja.
 

Rohanator

Well-Known Member
I think it's also a fair assumption that champions and Elite-4's have simply been powered down for plot purposes. Like, in DP there was never any NEED for anyone to be a match for them so they were depicted as untouchable Gods. But here there is, and at the end of the day that's all there really is to it. It's not like the writers are there sitting with a notebook being like "Okay this is how strong champions have been the past...hmmm...nope sorry we can't let Alan beat Malva if he's gonna be a rival for Ash later lets just have him beat some grunt" "NO the story needs this who cares how strong these trainers used to be we had Axew frigging knock back Cynthia's Garchomp last series"

ESPECIALLY if Ash is gonna win the league, every Mon he has now and that'll get brought back from Oak's is gonna be able to fight the Champion league.

As for the Shadow Ball/Moonblast thing, Moonblast has always been shown with this charge up animation in the anime, maybe that's intentional and the move really is slow in the anime and Diantha needed Shadow Ball to be able to counter in time. Most likely tho it made no difference to the writers, the point they wanted to get across was that Ash Greninja overpowered Mega Gardevoir in that moment, that's ALL that matters.
 
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I mean come on, I hate the logic that either Ash sucks and therefore Diantha sucks because of the battle, or Diantha plainly sucks at battling and doesn't deserve to be champion all over the idea that Ash made headway into having a strong Pokemon, and because Ash and Greninja worked together they managed to make some nice hits on Gardevoir all while believing even though Ash did this, in the end he ultimately WOULD lose to Diantha because Diantha being the champion would've eventually countered and brought down Ash Greninja.

So... Ash never had the slightest chance to win because he does not hold an important title like Diantha does?

I don’t remember seeing any of the E4 members or the Champions using mind blowing strategies in the anime, that’s probably because none of the them have been in the need of it; in most of the cases they ace trough the matches by making their Pokémon block everything without taking any damage or clashing with the opponent's attack, which eventually induces a knockout.

In this specific case, since Diantha was caught off guard and tested his opponent for too long, there was an actual chance that she could have lost this battle. I don’t think that “being the champion” is an actual reason to win, just like Malva is part of the formerly untouchable Elite Four, she can also lose due to an overpowered move, or in this case an exaggerated power up.
 

CupidKirby

Well-Known Member
That wasn't MY POINT. My point was she was too laid back during the battle to properly think, if this was a realistic battle, Greninja would've lost before becoming Ash Greninja

The fact is she was testing Greninja she was seeing it, due to her laidback nature during the beginning of the battle she was caught offguard because she wasn't on high alert ready to expect anything because she underestimated Ash and his Greninja it cost her greatly.

But at the same time, I'm lost as to why people think that a Champion would be able to counter something like "THIS" in a short amount of time and BECAUSE she didn't counter it she somehow suck and is a weak champion.

It makes no sense that people would underestimate Diantha like this JUST BECAUSE she couldn't counter Ash Greninja in a short amount of time and overestimated Ash and his Greninja because of it.

Why? I realize people are sick of Ash and want him to be removed from the anime, but I'd rather take a reasonable step towards the belief that Ash can take out an Elite Four Member and a champion at a reasonable pace, rather than believe "WOW if Ash didn't pass out, Diantha would've lost, Ash is a powerful champion level trainer that CANNOT be defeated EVER CONFIRMED!!!!111!!!.

I mean come on, I hate the logic that either Ash sucks and therefore Diantha sucks because of the battle, or Diantha plainly sucks at battling and doesn't deserve to be champion all over the idea that Ash made headway into having a strong Pokemon, and because Ash and Greninja worked together they managed to make some nice hits on Gardevoir all while believing even though Ash did this, in the end he ultimately WOULD lose to Diantha because Diantha being the champion would've eventually countered and brought down Ash Greninja.

I mean why do people insist on believing on wildly out of control and out of order power levels of characters and their Pokemon. On this logic, Wulfric is a more powerful opponent to Ash Greninja than Diantha was because of what's going to happen in regards to Wulfric.

Also Sawyer being stronger than Diantha too? Because....he beat Wulfric and is making Ash struggle in his battle? Oh well I mean to be fair, maybe its because of the lack of Ash Greninja....but even still what are people really thinking here?

No one here (thankfully) is trying to undermine Diantha. All I'm saying is that any champion is capable of making mistakes and they can be beatable. And Ash/Greninja being who brought that out is a major step for him. Your mentality that she'd never lose and every little error she makes in battle is either justified or 'unfair' because she's the champion is in of itself flawed.

It's true that if Diantha took the battle seriously from the beginning, then she would've won easily. But it's also true that if Ash had mastered Ash-Greninja and called upon it from the beginning, Ash wouldn't lose so easily. Your points are all circumstantial at best and hypothetical at worst.

Now, from a WRITING standpoint, you'd be right. I see where you're coming from with the sudden jump in power. But whether you find this jump believable or not is completely subjective. XY as a series had already humanized the E4 in terms of power by having Alain beat one, and this is a sudden turn in the series that's been long overdue. It's more the fact that the writers didn't let Ash get close to E4 level after five regions that's the bad writing than them finally having him go against the Champion in the sixth region. But that's what this entire arc is about. That Ash can't handle suddenly having so much power and faints as a result of it. It's because of this jump and his immaturity to handle it that he was denied the wins in the first place.
 
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Everlasting

Everything stays.
Ash's battle with Diantha was really intense... and just as awesome.
Honestly, I haven't been invested in one of Ash's battle in a long time. To think he caught off guard a Champion and actually landed multiple effective hits on its ace Pokémon (which also received hits in its Mega Evolution form). Had Ash and Greninja continued to hold their bond, I think Ash might've done some serious damage to Gardevoir, if not take it out.

Music was epic. I loved how it got more and more intense and dramatic as the battle got. Really puts emphasis on how crazy and dangerous Ash-Greninja is.
 

G4Pokefan

THE AURA IS WITH ME
So was up early so decided to catch this latest episode after not watching the last few months and realized i didnt miss much. Still with the whole Ash/Greninja thing. Doesn't interest me, kinda annoys me along with TR no surprise there. The same cheezy dialogue And Diantha was talking about Zygarde but of course, no sign of Squishy.

May watch again when the league starts, may not. Hopefully 7th gen anime will be better. wouldn't mind a BW/Indigo fusion not one bit.
 
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